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Why we are suing the Administration

292 pointsby yunongover 4 years ago

38 comments

badRNGover 4 years ago
Regardless of what you think about TikTok, the banning of an app in the interest of &quot;national security&quot; is largely unprecedented.<p>The jump from banning Huawei from building critical public infrastructure to banning an app that hasn&#x27;t even conclusively been proven to behave in any uniquely dangerous ways seems to be an intense, unjustified escalation of this conflict. [1]<p>You may disagree with me on the strict security-related merits of banning TikTok, and I am willing to concede all of them, however this will, either way, establish a precedent of an app&#x27;s coverage by 1st amendment free speech protections, and of what standards the government needs to do to ban an app, whether it be a Chinese social media app or an end-to-end encrypted messaging app. [2]<p>If the standard is simply to claim that it&#x27;s &quot;a national security threat&quot; without requiring any further evidence (besides the fact that it&#x27;s Chinese) then that might be cause for concern.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@fs0c131y&#x2F;tiktok-logs-logs-logs-e93e8162647a" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;medium.com&#x2F;@fs0c131y&#x2F;tiktok-logs-logs-logs-e93e81626...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.eff.org&#x2F;deeplinks&#x2F;2020&#x2F;08&#x2F;tiktok-ban-seed-genuine-security-concern-wrapped-thick-layer-censorship" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.eff.org&#x2F;deeplinks&#x2F;2020&#x2F;08&#x2F;tiktok-ban-seed-genuin...</a>
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drtillbergover 4 years ago
The silliness in the statement about being &quot;obligated&quot; to the TikTok community.... It&#x27;s contradictory, just like all ToS would be. Compare:<p><i>Public</i> <i>Relations</i> <i>Statement</i>: &quot;Put simply, we have a thriving community and we are grateful – and <i>responsible</i> – to them.&quot;<p>With: <i>Terms</i> <i>of</i> <i>Service</i>[1] ( hilariously, TikTok provides a read time estimate on the ToS of &quot;279 - 354 minutes&quot;):<p><pre><code> We reserve the right to disable your user account at any time ... in our sole discretion .... We reserve the right, at any time and without prior notice, to remove or disable access to content at our discretion for ... no reason. You further acknowledge that ... you (i) have no right to receive any income or other consideration from any User Content ... including in any User Content created by you, and (ii) are prohibited from exercising any rights to monetize or obtain consideration from any User Content within the Services or on any third party service ( e.g. , you cannot claim User Content that has been uploaded to a social media platform such as YouTube for monetization). By posting User Content ... you waive ... any and all rights of privacy, publicity, or any other rights of a similar nature in connection with your User Content.... [Y]ou hereby waive and agree never to assert any and all moral rights ... with respect to any User Content you Post to or through the Services. </code></pre> I&#x27;m sure there&#x27;s more, but the point is, as far as legal <i>obligation</i> goes, users are the junior partner for sure, and it&#x27;s pretty silly to claim TikTok is &quot;responsible&quot; to the community for much of anything, as a result of the ToS and other behind the scenes manuvering.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tiktok.com&#x2F;legal&#x2F;terms-of-use?lang=en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tiktok.com&#x2F;legal&#x2F;terms-of-use?lang=en</a>
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bootloopover 4 years ago
Why is the US always focusing on individual companies instead of working on laws to protect them from all companies invading the privacy of their citizens? Banning one player isn&#x27;t going to help much in the long run I would think.<p>Edit: I am an EU citizen if it matters.
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euixover 4 years ago
Interesting article in Bloomberg just now: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2020-09-01&#x2F;bytedance-chief-reconsiders-tiktok-options-after-new-china-rules" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bloomberg.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;articles&#x2F;2020-09-01&#x2F;bytedance...</a>.<p>The kicker is at the end:<p>“He thought that by making a promise to follow international standards or rules he would be able to escape the regulation or the kind of pressure from the American government,” said Ding. “But I think now he realizes he might have been wrong and that if he doesn’t want to sell the company, the only one who can help him is the Chinese government -- which is what he’s tried to avoid the past few years.”<p>It&#x27;s the same with Huawei, if Huawei wasn&#x27;t a government owned or backed company before, after the U.S. tried to kneecap it, it sure as hell will become one if only to survive.
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square_usualover 4 years ago
All else aside,<p>&gt; As a company we have always focused on transparency, so we want to explain why we are taking this step.<p>is patent bullshit, even more than the usual marketing speak. They sure as heck weren&#x27;t transparent about hiding posts from unattractive or LGBTQ people [1], or when they waited hours before calling police on a suicide which happened live on the platform to protect their image [2], or even about how they hid posts during the Hong Kong protests [3]. The last one is especially rich - they tried to claim it was because users &quot;came to TikTok for joyful content&quot; that there were very few posts from Hong Kong about the protests. This (The Administration vs TikTok) is a battle where both sides are awful.<p>1: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2020&#x2F;mar&#x2F;17&#x2F;tiktok-tried-to-filter-out-videos-from-ugly-poor-or-disabled-users" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2020&#x2F;mar&#x2F;17&#x2F;tiktok-tr...</a><p>2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theintercept.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;06&#x2F;tiktok-suicide-brazil&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;theintercept.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;06&#x2F;tiktok-suicide-brazil&#x2F;</a><p>3: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2019&#x2F;09&#x2F;15&#x2F;tiktoks-beijing-roots-fuel-censorship-suspicion-it-builds-huge-us-audience&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.washingtonpost.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2019&#x2F;09&#x2F;15&#x2F;tiktoks...</a>
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someonehereover 4 years ago
Radio Free Asia (unsure of legitimacy of this site) has stated China used TikTok data out of the Houston consulate (remember it was shut down by the State Department out of the blue and neighbors were filming the consulate burning documents in the courtyard) to manipulate the BLM protest narrative: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.freerepublic.com&#x2F;focus&#x2F;f-chat&#x2F;3876672&#x2F;posts" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.freerepublic.com&#x2F;focus&#x2F;f-chat&#x2F;3876672&#x2F;posts</a><p>“The purpose was to “weaponize” big data technology. It delivered relevant materials precisely to those people who were most likely to participate in the protests, while other people could not even find those videos.”<p>From the article there’s mention of fake IDs. That made me think of this news item: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fox5atlanta.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;shipments-of-nearly-20000-fake-drivers-licenses-seized-at-chicago-airport" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fox5atlanta.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;shipments-of-nearly-20000-f...</a><p>Something is afoot and TikTok needs to not be here anymore.
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S53Vflnr4nover 4 years ago
Zuck s been busy fighting Tiktok with tooth n nail. He knows he lost his prime users to Tiktok. No youngsters use FB anymore.<p>But FB can do this in India and its ok ?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;facebook-executive-supported-indias-modi-disparaged-opposition-in-internal-messages-11598809348" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;facebook-executive-supported-in...</a>
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zadkeyover 4 years ago
&quot;By banning TikTok with no notice or opportunity to be heard (whether before or after the fact), the executive order violates the due process protections of the Fifth Amendment.&quot;<p>The 5th amendment rights that they are asserting apply to people.<p>This brings us back to the question of &quot;Are corporations people?&quot;<p>&quot;No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.&quot;
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swileyover 4 years ago
Im no fan of banning an app just because it’s from another country but<p>&gt; As a company we have always focused on transparency<p>Isn’t something you can say when the only way to see something is from an “algorithm” curated feed. Facebook says the same thing and it’s always really upsetting.
fvvover 4 years ago
I think that free world should ban every company that comply with china censorship, here we are not talking about something like explicit content, or violence censorship which belong to cultural differences, here we are talking about not being put in jail because you say publicly that tibet should be free. or because you try to report abuse and suppression of the ruling class<p>this type of free speech should be guaranteed to anyone and reinforced with the non-violent marginalization of those who struggle to take away fundamental human rights, the ban of a society under the control of this regime is the least I expect from a state that wants to enact these rights. talk about what you want (here you can do it) talk about rights in the west etc ... (here you can do it) there (in china) you are just on another level, compare them if you want .. here you can do it .. but try to go there ..
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christophilusover 4 years ago
It’s hard for me to imagine the US allowing the USSR to distribute apps like this (or any kind, really) back in the Cold War. This action is not as unprecedented as some think. It is misguided, though. The US needs a systematic policy, not a bunch of arbitrary one-offs.
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bdeforeover 4 years ago
Couldn&#x27;t the EU leverage the TikTok ordeal to make a similar case to force US-based social networks to divest ownership and restrict data hosting to locations outside of Five Eyes access? Given the revelations around espionage towards NATO allies it doesn&#x27;t sound unreasonable.
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llbostonover 4 years ago
If you wanna learn more about how Chinese company are forced to do censorship, this will be a good read <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;translate.google.com&#x2F;translate?sl=zh-CN&amp;tl=en&amp;u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.voachinese.com%2Fa%2Finternet-censorship-20200812%2F5540475.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;translate.google.com&#x2F;translate?sl=zh-CN&amp;tl=en&amp;u=http...</a><p>An former employee of Weibo (China&#x27;s Twitter clone) who recently moved to the US did a great interview with VOA
fl0wRinyover 4 years ago
Who cares though honestly. Cry about it TikTok. Honestly ALL social media should be banned. Citizens don&#x27;t understand the privacy that is being exploited while they think that they&#x27;re benefiting from a &quot;free service.&quot; Besides these companies are mostly fueling a toxic culture that glorifies sin while they get rich off of the poor. Plus it&#x27;s the American market and we get to make the decisions here about other countries even if it&#x27;s extremely authoritarian. And honestly china is a despicable marketplace (not to say fight fire with fire) but gg dude, go to other markets they have been exploiting our market for as long as society can remember. Go do business elsewhere. They&#x27;re already stealing all of our IP and not required barely any pay to make it. So let&#x27;s set some boundaries where we can.
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chrisco255over 4 years ago
It&#x27;s really hard to feel bad for a Chinese entity when tens of thousands of small businesses across the country have had their business effectively bankrupted on account of arbitrary government action that is no fault of their own.
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krisgenreover 4 years ago
Why they have not done the same in India? They must be having more users in India than in US.
Ericson2314over 4 years ago
Honestly, as much as I dislike the CCP, I definitely want TikTok to stay until&#x2F;unless there is some real anti-trust or other FAANG weakening happening.<p>Even if Tik Tok just kills Facebook and becomes the new Facebook, that&#x27;s fine. Now the US goverment won&#x27;t feel conflicted between anti-trust and tech nationalism, and we can lobby for much better privacy laws.<p>Anti-trust has been such a joke in the last few decades, and federal governance so bad in general around all issues of privacy, technology, and competition, I&#x27;ll accept the Chinese competitor cudgel because it&#x27;s the best we got.<p>Sigh.
qazpotover 4 years ago
Maybe American companies should sue China.
BTCOGover 4 years ago
If and while China sees fit to ban all American apps, programs, and sites, we should return that in kind. I support segregating China off our clean network.
golergkaover 4 years ago
TikTok is awful company which clearly panders to Chinese government, deletes anti-CCP content, and quite probably collects private data and promotes content in its own political interests.<p>However.<p>The whole world sees &quot;The West&quot; in general, and US in particular, as a place, where The Rule Of Law, and in general, some respect for the Rules, even for adversaries, is more important than in other places. That&#x27;s why Russian oligarchs sue each other in London&#x27;s courts. That&#x27;s why millions of the most educated, the most creative, the most productive people immigrate to US and other capitalist countries from former Soviet block and not the other way around. Of course, US is not paradise, and everybody how ugly and criminal can it be sometimes; but still, compared to what other parts of the world look like, it&#x27;s still a City upon a hill. Yes, US is a corrupt, racist country with a lot of deep internal problems, and yet it is still the best champion for democratic values we&#x27;ve got on the whole planet. (Some smaller European countries can have a better record, but they&#x27;re just not significant enough to have a real influence).<p>And despite how awful TikTok is, and how I would applaud their demise, these executive orders, which directly violate these core ideals of western civilisation, damage not only US, but these ideals itself in the long run. I&#x27;m still amazed that a private company can sue the government and have a real hope at winning — if you&#x27;re American, you may not realise how precious that possibility even is. And I really hope it does win.
exabrialover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s pretty simple really: prove that you&#x27;ve resisted CCP censorship instead of rolling over. Not hard.
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nogabebop23over 4 years ago
lost me at the second sentence:<p>&gt;&gt; As a company we have always focused on transparency<p>maybe this is another parody like the MasterWiki one?
Heysoover 4 years ago
Not sure this has anything to do with tiktok, but just wanted to say that :<p>Every compagny that is not paying taxes, is stealing money from all peoples in the country. They use loopholes in the law to make in legal. But that should not be acceptable. It pain me to live in a world where most peoples doesn&#x27;t care to be robbed constantly.
idealsover 4 years ago
Some strong Chinese xenophobia in this thread. This place is getting straight up awful towards Chinese.<p>Cheerleading a racist president who shouts &quot;China flu&quot; and latching onto this flimsy executive order because you finally get the warm fuzzy feeling of fucking over a company started by a Chinese person is straight up fucked.
nicosaulover 4 years ago
Best case scenario Tiktok is just wasting people’s time.
fvvover 4 years ago
Chinese administration ban or ostracize large portion of us software , imo us and eu must do the same &#x27;til minimum information freedom for free people ( no China firewall,information circulation ban ) is allowed there too
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wombatmobileover 4 years ago
President Trump&#x27;s executive order states these reasons for banning TikTok:<p>&quot;TikTok automatically captures vast swaths of information from its users, including Internet and other network activity information such as location data and browsing and search histories. This data collection threatens to allow the Chinese Communist Party access to Americans’ personal and proprietary information — potentially allowing China to track the locations of Federal employees and contractors, build dossiers of personal information for blackmail, and conduct corporate espionage.<p>&quot;TikTok also reportedly censors content that the Chinese Communist Party deems politically sensitive, such as content concerning protests in Hong Kong and China’s treatment of Uyghurs and other Muslim minorities. This mobile application may also be used for disinformation campaigns that benefit the Chinese Communist Party, such as when TikTok videos spread debunked conspiracy theories about the origins of the 2019 Novel Coronavirus.&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whitehouse.gov&#x2F;presidential-actions&#x2F;executive-order-addressing-threat-posed-tiktok&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.whitehouse.gov&#x2F;presidential-actions&#x2F;executive-or...</a>
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IanDrakeover 4 years ago
This isn&#x27;t about privacy, this is about a cold war with China that has been going on for a while now.
tmcronnover 4 years ago
&gt;Microsoft has been in talks to acquire TikTok — though co-founder Bill Gates has called the potential deal a “poisoned chalice”<p>Where there&#x27;s money to be made, no poison is too poisonous for big companies.
knodiover 4 years ago
The Idiot-Trump effect.
protezover 4 years ago
All Chinese companies are subsidiaries of Chinese communists party. There is no single exception. TikTok and Huawei have been exploiting all of its information and power to influence in the favor of China Communist Party and it&#x27;s against not just us, but all the free states and people in proper nations.
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Canadaover 4 years ago
This is retaliation for China&#x27;s unfair practices. It&#x27;s not about propaganda, what videos are allowed or disallowed, or who might see which videos you watch. It&#x27;s about the fact that valuable US tech companies aren&#x27;t allowed to compete in China. If they were the trade deficit wouldn&#x27;t nearly as bad. Now the Trump administration is hitting back. This is plainly and simply: Screw you, we&#x27;re going to take something successful of yours.<p>The tactics are distasteful: Filing outrageous criminal changes against Meng Wanzhou and the campaign to ban Huawei products as well as this frankly gangster-like hostile takeover of Bytedance&#x27;s business.<p>I don&#x27;t feel sorry for Huawei. Live by the sword, die by the sword. Bytedance on the other hand is only guilty of making a fun product, but in the game being played here fairness to the pawns isn&#x27;t a priority.
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crypticaover 4 years ago
Nobody gives a crap about TikTok or its executives. If Trump puts them all in jail for life without a trial. I don&#x27;t care about TikTok and their cronies. If Trump decided to seize all billionaires&#x27; money and assets and distribute it equally to everyone, I would see that as a plus.<p>In this nonsensical economy, the pathetic moral arguments made by this article are word vomit. Not relevant to anyone&#x27;s life. Nobody cares. They should be locked up for abusing our collective brains with this irrelevant crap.
chojeenover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s hard to know how to feel about this complex situation. On one hand:<p>- The Chinese government clearly has its tendrils in TikTok and uses it to push its oppressive censorship policies around the world<p>- The security implications of giving China a backdoor into a large percentage of American phones is too concerning to ignore<p>On the other hand:<p>- Explicitly targeting specific companies feels wrong. If security and censorship are real concerns here, Congress should be passing laws that apply to all companies, not just TikTok<p>- Even though there are sound reasons to restrict TikTok, this is still a transparently protectionist policy by the Trump admin and fits right into his nationalistic, totalitarian, xenophobic playbook. A broken clock is still right twice a day, I suppose<p>- Requiring a sale to an American company is the mirror image of China&#x27;s forced technology transfers for foreign companies. Two wrongs don&#x27;t make a right<p>I think the best scenario is for Congress to preempt Trump with laws that protect American security and free speech interests without executive action. That&#x27;s easier said than done, though.
yholioover 4 years ago
I believe the USA is squarely within its rights to reciprocate the ban that american companies such as Google and Facebook face in China. So the move is justified on commercial grounds alone.<p>That being said, Trump&#x27;s claims that TikTok is a national security threat are more than dubious. Sure, the operation of any foreign company can be interpreted as a security threat to any nation. Who&#x27;s to say that the latest imported batch of Ramen aren&#x27;t part of a Japanese plot for a new Pearl Harbor involving explosive Ramen. But the only logical conclusion to this way of thinking is to completely isolate a country from the outside world.
temp1892232323over 4 years ago
In a world full of shady companies, I would much rather bacl companies like FB than companies like TikTok backed by the Chinese government.<p>Even with all the flaws that the US government and various US companies have, they&#x27;re so much better in terms of transparency and regulation than their chinese counterparts.
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nelaborasover 4 years ago
I would love for tiktok (and all similar social media) to disappear and I agree that China is a threat to the rest of the world (although the US is too :-) ) but tiktok do have a point that this has been done by the trump admin like they do things in a banana republic: I don&#x27;t like things therefore I, the king.. uh president, decide that this has to go.<p>You might like it here as its a company you don&#x27;t like but what if the same is done next for Twitter, Telegram, or maybe just foreign companies like e.g. Siemens, Tata, ...<p>Trump is hollowing out the rule of law and pretends he can do whatever he feels like. It&#x27;s a mistake to cheer for that even if you agree with some of those decisions.<p>All I&#x27;m reminded of is this famous quote of a German priest ultimately executed by the Nazis:<p>&gt; First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a socialist.<p>&gt; Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a trade unionist.<p>&gt; Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-Because I was not a Jew.<p>&gt; Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
ausjkeover 4 years ago
Tiktok, in your hiring practice, you stated CCP members first and preferred, you have CCP organization in your company and they&#x27;re very active daily(meeting, discussing how to serve better to CCP and obey CCP&#x27;s leadership,etc), in fact your CEO etc must follow the CCP leaders in your organization, you&#x27;re nothing but a CCP puppet. You&#x27;re further evil enough to leverage the West free world to cover the true you.<p>this is the same logic as many CCP officers in the news section, they block twitter&#x2F;facebook&#x2F;etc inside mainland China, but themselves have active twitter&#x2F;facebook&#x2F;etc accounts to push CCP&#x27;s propaganda. they become so good at leveraging the free world&#x27;s system to cover their own evil actions. For god sake the west is waking up.<p>I did business there and I know you all well.