Coordination, Good and Bad

126 pointsby dayveover 4 years ago

9 comments

seibeljover 4 years ago

Vitalik is the creator of Ethereum. Ethereum is a platform for permission-less, programmable money and code that moves money and digital assets. Over $100 billion in assets are now operating on Ethereum. Here is a link to an explorer for USDC, a digital asset that is backed by dollars that has about $2 billion custodied by Coinbase and Circle <a href="https://etherscan.io/token/0xa0b86991c6218b36c1d19d4a2e9eb0ce3606eb48" rel="nofollow">https://etherscan.io/token/0xa0b86991c6218b36c1d19d4a2e9eb0c...</a>I guarantee you that nearly every digital asset breaks numerous laws in every developed country. Bitcoin and Ethereum help violate money laundering laws every hour as many $10k+ transactions execute without proper forms filed with government agencies. Whereas it takes a shitload of money to obtain money transmitter licenses in the USA to operate in every state, it’s trivial to accept huge amounts of money across state and international borders once you create a cryptocurrency wallet.I’m saying this because the technology has surpassed the laws. As Uber and Airbnb became so successful that governments bent, so too is cryptocurrency powered by blockchain technology forcing the government’s hands. A paradigm shift is occurring under everyone’s noses!If you choose to ignore blockchain, don’t be surprised when it becomes a very crucial technology. It is upending centuries of financial customs, rules, laws, and institutions.

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singronover 4 years ago

> there are mathematical proofs that at least one stable Nash equilibrium must exist in any gameThat's actually not true. E.g. the game "you get the amount of money you ask for" has no equilibrium because you can always ask for a larger number. The proof on wikipedia doesn't apply to this game because the strategy space isn't compact. In real life, this doesn't come up much because usually your strategy is bounded somehow (e.g. you are limited by available cash+credit). I'm not as familiar with the other conditions listed and how they might relate to game strategies, but it would be interesting to hear an example game for each.

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webmavenover 4 years ago

Hmm. In the context of cryptocurrencies, I wonder what incentivizing defection would look like? eg. if several entities are colluding on a 51% attack, what mechanism would benefit a defector controlling 20% while screwing over the other colluding 31%, thus warning the non-colluding 49% of the collusion?

zuhayeerover 4 years ago

Interestingly, in a somewhat related notion, I’ve been noticing that there’s been a recent push in society towards individuality (over collectivism). In the way people view right or wrong, many have started to believe in their own preferences as ideals. While it’s good to have differences, it’s interesting to see the downstream effects of an overcorrection for the self. For example, doctors are now being accused of immorally attacking someone for being obese (seen as a personality trait), when in reality they’re just trying to help patients be aware of their unhealthy habits so they can improve their condition.Because we tie how we view the world to our individuality, we also adopt our own flaws as part of our objective compass. And things get interesting when people with that same frame of mind run into each other.

crypticaover 4 years ago

I've always felt that 'moral barriers' were the main forces which have allowed capitalism to operate relatively smoothly in the past (at least in some countries). That's why I've always been against Milton Friedman's philosophy that each person should only be motivated by-self interest.In many ways, this philosophy is the reason why we ended up where we are today; with a deep and growing class divide fueled by colluding self-interests, moral depravity and hypocrisy.This is because self-interest and cooperation are not mutually exclusive; it's the opposite; they are mutually reliant.But cooperation born out of self-interest does not yield the same results as cooperation born out of altruism and a sense of moral justice or collective pride.

koonsoloover 4 years ago

> price for some product between $5 and $10; the differences within the range reflect difficult-to-see factors such as the seller's internal costs, their own willingness to work at different wages, supply-chain issues and the like.No! Why is it so difficult for people to understand that price is set by supply and demand? Cost has absolutely no influence on how much the customer is willing to pay.

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sovaover 4 years ago

I never thought of "unstable games" before and that is quite revelatory when thinking about money, but I do wonder about cooperation because maybe not in Ethereum-land is there much joint minting of money, but there are subtle systems forces in place in the physical world that do mint money cooperatively and that might skew some of these perfect mathematical results, for example.

trevelyanover 4 years ago

Vitalik is spinning a false dichotomy. Saito (<a href="http://saito.io/arcade" rel="nofollow">http://saito.io/arcade</a>) has already solved the 51 percent attack.The mechanism used (using fee collection as work) eliminates the profitability of collusion while still rewarding cooperation.

mudlusover 4 years ago

Still tons of misunderstanding in this space.The financial system is supposed to have regulations that protect everyone in an economy. But, what they've ended up doing over the years is only applying to small players and retail (everyday) investors.Trump and his friends front ran the market crash. Then, after a records stimulus was passed, profited as over 200k US citizens died. That's just America (though America is the defacto reserve currency since WW2). They don't get punished, and they are just the _obvious_ cheaters in the game of international finance and crony capitalism.The USD is also the de-facto currency for: child pornographers, international hits and murder contracts, paying for military grade weapons, enforcing sanctions on entire economies, drugs, money laundering, literally everything--because it is _the_ reserve currency.Enforcement is for the people at the bottom, not the top. Ethereum can't change that, it's just offering the same financial services that crony capitalism offered but with a MORE oligarchical rules set. That's why it's funny his "ideal" and "realistic" pictures for success in cooperation both have pictures of castles.Bitcoin is anarchist money (for now) because it uses entropy to secure instead of force/violence (all fiat currency requires a military to secure). It questions the some of the base authorial structure of all human society/nation-state economics. It is built with disorder in mind. It has built in distrust of authority. Authority is(or requires) force (to enforce). It's important to question authority--that's the only way to progress, no power/responsibility/trust should be given indefinitely. With that in mind.Ethereum is a new form of authority, just like Bitcoin. But, it does some different stuff with the responsibility that is bestowed upon it. Ethereum owners (people who design, say, "smart contracts," or whatever), have already abused their power, this makes it more dangerous than Bitcoin. Recent SushiSwap stuff. Eth classic is constantly getting 51% attacked. There has been rollbacks. The devs change the inflation rate at will. They are constantly trying to move at a breakneck speed, so it's scary for people who want to hold money long term because you never know what you're gonna have to adapt to, or whatever. It is designed to play with new trust models, it's totally different than Bitcoin. Could be fun, but is designed to be more of a wild west than Bitcoin. If anything it's really better to see it as another layer to Bitcoin. If it surpasses Bitcoin in value, something will surpass it. If Bitcoin fails, it will likely fail since it is tied to the Bitcoin economy (wrapped Bitcoin, code similarities and cryptography standards used). If you're interested in Ethereum, there's already a better Ethereum, it's called TRON. And what about Polkadot. etc etc.If you're interested in going down this rabbit hole. Start with tech deflation.IMO, On a macro level we're seeing the same thing that happened after the industrial revolution, leading up to WW1 (though historians still argue about the cause of WW1--I think it's clear they'd have a lot to argue about if we had a WW3 soon, as well). It's called tech deflation. Of course, I'm not a historian or an economist. SO TAKE THIS ENTIRE DIATRIBE WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.Deflation is political suicide because business money goes where there is promise of a strong consumer base and labor force. But inflation is also effectively gaslighting citizens of the inflating nation-state. That's why we see such disparity through asset bubbles and pops every decade. The problem isn't inflation, though, it's that there isn't another legal option for all people. Money is a good that is consumed like anything else. You can keep fiat AND your Amazon gift card AND have some Bitcoin. Accept deflation into your life. Bitcoin is an anti-inflationary anti-censorship (Ethereum is not) choice, it is the best option for an equally distributed access to deflation that humans have right now (better than gold, or whatever, anyway). Honestly, believe it's the best first step to preventing a third world war.Ignore Vitalik's grains of salt, ignore my grains of saltBuy Bitcoin