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Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians

741 pointsby afrcncover 4 years ago

92 comments

merricksbover 4 years ago
Earlier discussions:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23697083" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23697083</a> (358 points&#x2F;83 days ago&#x2F;606 comments)<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23798922" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=23798922</a> (84 points&#x2F;73 days ago&#x2F;58 comments)
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dangover 4 years ago
All: please note that there are more comments on page 2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24552047&amp;p=2">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24552047&amp;p=2</a><p>(That&#x27;s what clicking the &#x27;More&#x27; links at the bottom of large threads takes you to)
lowendover 4 years ago
ITT: (Possibly) &quot;Upper caste&quot; Indians claiming:<p>1. This is due to a few bad apples<p>2. Reservation is the real problem (no it&#x27;s not)<p>3. I don&#x27;t do it therefore it doesn&#x27;t exist<p>I can tell you by experience the amount of concious and unconcious bias regarding caste amongst Indians both in India and abroad is ridiculous! I&#x27;m light skinned so people assume I&#x27;m &quot;upper caste&quot; and speak with me as such. My last name doesn&#x27;t give away my caste either. I don&#x27;t broadcast it or even like to talk about it because growing up I experienced innumerable instances where people&#x27;s behaviors instantly changed when they found out. Some mild, some extreme but it was there.<p>I grew up in a metro so this isn&#x27;t a backward ass village. My college fucking put the caste next to people&#x27;s names on notice boards for things like seating arrangements for an exam. How the fuck is a person&#x27;s caste relevant? This is normal for you?<p>Even in the US, people casually either slip in sentences or assume castes and speak as such. Fortunately, there are plenty of people (regardless of their caste - I never ask&#x2F;care) that feel the same way. Funny enough, the people who care about caste also seem to be racially biased in my anecdotal experience. :|
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_jgdhover 4 years ago
For people who discuss this with Indian co-workers - don&#x27;t be surprised if they find this bizarre or far fetched. For most upper caste folks, it <i>appears</i> as if the caste system doesn&#x27;t exist because they&#x27;ve never been at the receiving end of it. Most people (me included) would be tempted to say - I&#x27;ve never discriminated, I&#x27;ve never seen it happen in front of me, I&#x27;m confident none of my friends would do it so therefore it doesn&#x27;t exist.<p>But it does. It&#x27;s heartbreaking that my fellow Indians have to deal with this in 2020. Just like BLM educated some white people about the <i>existence</i> of racism, how it manifests, how it affects people etc., we need a similar movement to educate upper caste Indians.<p>I&#x27;ve also seen the same people say &quot;if we completely ignore caste, it&#x27;ll go away&quot;. It won&#x27;t. I personally can&#x27;t tell you what someone&#x27;s caste is based on their name because I don&#x27;t care enough to find out the mapping between name &lt;=&gt; caste. If everyone was like this, there wouldn&#x27;t be a problem. But I know for a fact that there exist people who can map name to caste and these people also discriminate on the basis of caste. These people might only be a minority but they can have a disproportionate effect. As long as they exist, the rest of us can&#x27;t adopt an ostrich approach to the caste system.
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rvn1045over 4 years ago
The lack of self awareness amongst upper caste Indians in India and abroad is interesting to witness.<p>They often think of themselves as having come from humble backgrounds and &#x27;made it&#x27; in society all on their own. Not realizing that the vast majority of Indians in India live in abject poverty without any meaningful access to basic education and other amenities. Upper caste Indians are more likely to have access to better education, have family from previous generations who were also college educated or worked well paid government jobs. These multi generational advantages have helped the current generation of the upper caste succeed in India and beyond.<p>The Upper caste live in their own bubble not even realizing the privilege they are born with.
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sharadovover 4 years ago
Unfortunately, the caste system is more complex than the issue of race in the US. The reservation system in India was instituted to bring parity between the downtrodden castes and the upper castes. When I was in engineering school in the late 90s, if you were from a lower caste, you barely had to get passing marks in the engineering entrance exam to make it to a top engineering school. And you would still have unfilled seats. A friend who belonged to a lower caste ( got a rank of 25000 in the entrance exam and breezed into a top engineering school), while another guy from an upper caste who got a rank of 5000, basically was rejected. You pretty much had to get a rank under 3000 if you were from an upper caste to get an admit to any engineering school. Not everyone who is upper case in India is rich, in fact the Brahmins are mostly lower - middle class. To be poor and Brahmin is like getting doubly screwed. The reservation system does not stop at education, you have it in public sector jobs. Merit took a big hit, people who were unqualified started making their way into education and jobs. It&#x27;s a good idea taken to an extreme. A lot of these &quot;Brahmins&quot; are butt-hurt because of this, but hey, you are in the US now, leave that feudal thinking behind.
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mcvover 4 years ago
My dad recently told me how during the 1980s they had two Indians working together on a project. Turns out one of them was upper-caste, and the other lower-caste, and the upper-caste basically refused. Was impossible to work with, because he was offended that he had to work with a lower-caste person.<p>If this attitude discrimination of Dalits by upper-castes is really so common in non-Indian companies, it sounds like it would be irresponsible to put upper-caste Indians in a position of authority over Dalits. Maybe they need additional training to help them overcome their prejudices, but this sort of discrimination and bullying should really not be acceptable. Of course if you blindly assume all upper-caste Indians are like that, it would ironically lead to discrimination of those upper castes. Education is probably the better option.
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anonymousJim12over 4 years ago
I&#x27;m not sure if this will be seen but I&#x27;m very curious to hear from Indian folk:<p>I am the hiring manager at a well known software company that employs a lot of Indians on H1B visas. A while back I brought in an Indian person for a full round interview. This person happen to have pretty dark skin. On the interview team was a light skinned Indian person with a very Brahmin last name that I&#x27;d say is pretty average technically and wasn&#x27;t my first choice to be on the interview team. The unbiased interview feedback sent to me was 5 yes to hire and the only no to hire (and strong at that) was the Indian interviewer...<p>A few days later I read about this caste situation at Cisco and I had to wonder...<p>Any recommendations on how I can avoid having this uncertainty if discrimination was at play? Seems like a pretty hard thing to prove.
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mabboover 4 years ago
At no point do they say &quot;Our company does not and did not allow discrimination against a person for being dalit&quot;. That is all they would have to say to take a clear stance- and they don&#x27;t.<p>&gt; &quot;Cisco is committed to an inclusive workplace for all,&quot; the company said in a statement to online news site thewire.<p>&gt; &quot;We have robust processes to report and investigate concerns raised by employees which were followed in this case dating back to 2016, and have determined <i>we were fully in compliance with all laws as well as our own policies</i>. Cisco will vigorously defend itself against the allegations made in this complaint.&quot; (emphasis mine).<p>We&#x27;re inclusive! You can tell, because nothing we did was strictly illegal! And nothing violated any of our policies, which don&#x27;t cover discrimination by caste!
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primitivesuaveover 4 years ago
I was born in India and grew up in the South Bay Area, which has a big Indian population. I distinctly remember other Indian kids in my elementary&#x2F;middle school asking me what my caste is. I later asked my parents and they refused to tell me, explaining to me why I shouldn&#x27;t care. I still don&#x27;t know to this day, although researching my last name implied rural origins. I am lucky to have immigrant parents who didn&#x27;t bring this ugly aspect of Indian society with them - those other kids who asked me likely had parents who did, and were imbuing their kids with it from a young age.
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thor24over 4 years ago
It boils my blood reading something like this. A man who worked has worked for 20 yrs, paid taxes, provided for his family (in US and back home) has to suffer this much humiliation.<p>Compound this with the fact the person must be (most likely) on his H1B so can&#x27;t leave his job and prepare for another one in peace because 2 month window is a short one to find a job.<p>If there is some karma in this world I hope Iyer&#x2F;other guy gets it.
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pringles_redover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t get why is everyone who is saying this a result of the reservation system is getting downvoted.<p>I am an Indian and clearly reservation system is a spectacular failure. The reservation system actively creates a divide among castes. I will not be surprised if some these upper caste people who are fed up of reservation in India discriminate when they go to USA. These upper caste people are not discriminating due to fact that they believe that one caste is superior to another, they are doing it because they are able to sympathise with the plight of other unreserved Indians in India.<p>How it is to be unreserved in India: Any unreserved Indian who wants to stay in India is basically agreeing to working two to three times as hard as a reserved Indian to get into any government jobs&#x2F;colleges while at the same time their tax money is being used to fund these. Also complaining about caste system or reservation can land you in jail (for offending minorities) and the politicians use reserved people as their vote-banks providing them even more privileges for votes. This system is only going to get worse for upper castes. So even your future generations have to work two - three times as hard because of their caste. Sounds like a good deal?<p>Also reservation benefits only rich reserved people not the poor ones who actually need help because everyone of the caste regardless of their economic circumstances can take advantage of reservation. My grandparents were literally rag pickers at one point in their life and now they are in the middle class I&#x27;m not sure how this is due to their caste and not their hard-work. The system is utterly disrespectful to anyone in the upper class. Thus, the higher amount of immigration is of the upper class anyways.<p>P.S. - By upper caste I mean the &quot;General&quot; unreserved people and &quot;SC ST OBC&quot; etc are the reserved quotas.
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varbhatover 4 years ago
It is problem of those casteist employees of Cisco , Cisco , it&#x27;s management and it&#x27;s rules. They are simply not proper. There are many casteists too in many companies who must be terminated from Employment if casteist behavior is found.<p>Note that not all upper-caste People are casteist and harmful. I also see many Rich People whose ancestors were Dalits, who no longer need any financial grant&#x2F;food&#x2F;shelter from the Government claiming it from Government. It only harms very poor Dalits in need.<p>This Casteism at companies is bad and Casteism is crime. Also, the title of this post is Peculiar. Title must not be &quot;90% of Techies are upper caste&quot; as upper caste is not synonymous with casteist.<p>Also,there are many poor,hard working non-casteist people who by birth(not changeable) were upper-caste people who worked hard to get into good job in US,so they deserve that job.
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jerzytover 4 years ago
What&#x27;s shocking is that this caste system is being continued in the US. US is oblivious to this system, very few people have any understanding of this, yet it affects success in the corporate world. Obviously, there&#x27;s enough Indian presence in the business to influence it, but it&#x27;s flying under the US corporate culture. I&#x27;ve worked with many Indian coworkers in the tech industry, and now I&#x27;m rethinking some of the connections I&#x27;ve observed.
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dharmachover 4 years ago
This is more of a USA problem where people working under H1B visa are somehow dependent to their employer&#x2F;manager and vulnerable to exploitation&#x2F;discrimination (if the employer&#x2F;manager happens to be a casteist Indian). In Canada (for example), I can flaunt my low caste without such fear.
raincomover 4 years ago
If we go by the rhetoric of &#x27;the caste system&#x27;, Mukesh Ambani (an Indian billionaire) will hire poor people from his caste for C-level exec positions in Reliance.<p>Same thing with marriage: look at the billionaires in India. Which one of them has married a poor person from his&#x2F;her caste? None.<p>How many of these Indians in FAANG hired some incompetent ones from his caste without acing leetcode hard questions?<p>If you are super wealthy, caste&#x2F;color&#x2F;creed doesn&#x27;t matter; it is only for the poor schmucks.
hartatorover 4 years ago
A reminder that CISCO allowed official caste discrimination in the US among their Indian workers until recently: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnn.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;07&#x2F;01&#x2F;tech&#x2F;cisco-lawsuit-caste-discrimination&#x2F;index.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnn.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;07&#x2F;01&#x2F;tech&#x2F;cisco-lawsuit-caste-disc...</a>
garitiover 4 years ago
As a white American who grew up with indian friends&#x2F;family who traveled in India for the first time, I was pretty shocked at how different it was than I expected. It&#x27;s Incredibly diverse in terms of language, religion, culture, ect and I can say that It&#x27;s the only county I&#x27;ve visited that I left feeling I knew less than before I came.
neilkover 4 years ago
Slightly offtopic, but the recent book &quot;Caste&quot; by Isabel Wilkerson explores the concept as a frame for understanding social problems, beyond just India.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Discontents" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Caste:_The_Origins_of_Our_Disc...</a>
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zwapsover 4 years ago
I know one case in a big and very internationally staffed European company where Indian employees have sort coalesced into a group (hiring amongst themselves, giving out promotions allegedly) that plays out some sort of complicated social structure - including many of them moving into the same apartment building (majorly unusual in this country!) and supposedly some caste-based status system that is rather opaque for anyone else. Within that division, non-Indians also have a difficult standing or at least say they do.<p>There is not much people can do about it, it would be risky topic to address. If true, it goes without saying that this is completely unacceptable on many levels. It breeds serious negative sentiments: I have heard other employees talking quite badly about the situation and Indian employees involved. Several people, all I talked to actually, actively try to leave that team.<p>I know that forming a cohesive subgroup in a foreign culture probably gives comfort, but (to the degree that this is all true) I&#x27;d urge Indians working abroad not to do this. It&#x27;ll eventually have negative consequences for everyone involved. I was seriously surprised by the sort of negative comments I have heard from non-Indian team members.
elihuover 4 years ago
That&#x27;s interesting. As a white guy who works in a large tech company with a lot of Indians, I&#x27;m not sure what to think about this. I can definitely believe that this is a problem even if it&#x27;s not obvious to me directly, but I can also see how &quot;Indian people treat those of lower castes badly&quot; could itself be a racist trope.<p>Is there anything that that would be obvious to someone from India but not a white guy from the U.S. that a co-worker is being shunned or mistreated in the workplace on account of their caste? Even knowing what caste each of one&#x27;s Indian coworkers are in could be helpful in some ways and detrimental in others.<p>(My impression of the Indian people I&#x27;ve worked with is almost entirely positive, and I generally consider them to be a mistreated class already just because so many of them are here on an H1B visa and therefore could potentially be kicked out of the country if they happened to be laid off, which no doubt is in the back of their minds when considering whether or not to work through the weekend. The employee-employer relationship is edging close enough to slavery to make me uncomfortable.)
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gorpomonover 4 years ago
There&#x27;s a really simple takeaway here for everyone around all this discussion that&#x27;s surfaced on HN around caste: actively ask people in your org if they&#x27;ve experienced this type of discrimination and take their claims as seriously as you&#x27;d take other types of discrimination.<p>This is something SV and other places are just waking up to. Caste discrimination is a pretty foreign idea for many people, so don&#x27;t feel the need to be an expert right away. Instead, I would suggest you try and find a DEI firm that might have expertise in these issues and see if they can help you work through these issues.
specialpover 4 years ago
Just for some clarification: What percentage of Indians are &quot;upper caste&quot;? What exactly is the cut off for being lower caste vs upper? I know this article says 90% of Indian US tech workers are upper caste but what is their representation as a whole in Indian population?
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eesmithover 4 years ago
Cisco HR said &quot;caste discrimination was not unlawful&quot;.<p>Doesn&#x27;t California&#x27;s Unruh Civil Rights Act prohibit employment discrimination in a businesses based on ancestry, especially given the CA Supreme Court&#x27;s repeated determination that the list of protected classes should be interpreted broadly? So why wouldn&#x27;t caste discrimination be illegal under that law?
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karterkover 4 years ago
I wanted to offer another perspective for this trend: Many states in India, especially in the South, have affirmative action policies that make it really hard for these people to find good jobs or colleges in India. So they head out and prosper in the US.
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windexover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s subtle, but you will spot it if you want to.<p>I&#x27;ve seen Indians do this question with other Indians:&quot;Are you vegetarian or non vegetarian?&quot; That&#x27;s where it starts and that&#x27;s how they find out. Once the initial sort of veg&#x2F;non-veg is done, they can then sort by which type of upper caste you are. It&#x27;s almost an algorithmic partition+sort.<p>Almost all upper caste Indians are vegetarian. Imposition of vegetarianism is the current Indian political fad as well, with people eating non-vegetarian food being randomly discriminated against and lynched under the pretext of &quot;he was carrying beef.&quot;
apexalphaover 4 years ago
People who are surprised by this have no idea what life looks like for lower class Indians.
higerordermapover 4 years ago
While being wealthier may be a reason, quotas in India are also a reason. I bet for at least 80% of these upper caste Indians have grown up hearing &quot;we upper castes don&#x27;t get any quota here, we have to study hard [and get high paying tech job and preferably settle abroad]&quot;.<p>It is not just the consequence of being wealthier, although that and politics play a role. Among Indians from similar income levels, that makes it unreserved castes people more likely to take up tech &#x2F; medical sector.
Cantbekhanover 4 years ago
I strongly recommend this recent movie <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imdb.com&#x2F;title&#x2F;tt7142506&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.imdb.com&#x2F;title&#x2F;tt7142506&#x2F;</a> which gives what IMHO seems like quite a realistic view on that topic (and no, it&#x27;s definitely not the cliché Bollywood movie full of dancing, don&#x27;t be fooled by any trailer).
vmurthyover 4 years ago
A bit strange to see this headline. The headline makes it seem like there is some way that the US has a bias for &quot;upper-caste&quot; Indians which is a bit ridiculous. Indeed, the headline should have read &quot;Defamation case finds caste-based discrimination of Indian by fellow Indian(s)&quot;.<p>One way to look at the apparent disparity in numbers taking caste out of the equation :<p>-People motivated to be in the US apply for GRE&#x2F;GMAT , pursue higher education in the US and get employed there. For socio-economic reasons, this might well be upper caste and there are things that the <i>Indian</i> government can do to bring in a semblance of equal opportunities<p>-People perform well (nothing to do with caste here) and get recognised by businesses and are sent to the US to work there. There&#x27;s a chance that these are motivated by things other than talent but up to companies to make the evaluation as objective as possible.
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dschuetzover 4 years ago
Isn&#x27;t such cast system a violation of basic human rights regardless if it&#x27;s institutionalized or not?
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flowerladover 4 years ago
There are some areas of India, such as Bihar, where 40% of the populace cannot even read or write, let alone be educated. Such areas tend to be socially backward. Other areas are not that backward.<p>Yes, the ancient caste system still exists in India, in the backward areas. But in other areas it is only relevant when it comes to politics, mainly. See: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;16&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;caste-is-not-past.html?_r=0" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2013&#x2F;06&#x2F;16&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;caste-is-no...</a>
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anu7dfover 4 years ago
Ok.. I am going to be brave and not going to use a throwaway. I find it perplexing that HN crowd who is usually arguing for a balanced analysis and seeing both viewpoints is suddenly behaving as if this data proves some injustice is currently happening in India as well as US (in the context of Indian caste system). To be clear, India has&#x2F;had a caste system that was extremely oppressive. Currently though, the social aspects aside, economically and crucially educationally, the &quot;lower castes&quot;, have an advantage due to a system of reservations - affirmative action on steroids. I am not going to argue one way or the other as to whether the idea or the implementation of such an affirmative action policy is fair or net positive. It probably still is in principle, but in practice the people who seem to benefit from this, in my experience, are very rich &quot;lower caste&quot; families. More things to say here, but I don&#x27;t want to digress. The law suit in the story has to do with IIT. So let&#x27;s take that specifically. IIT is extremely competitive to get into. It is even more competitive once you are in. It is common for affirmative action students to not do very well there. Call it a difference grit&#x2F;talent&#x2F;smartness whatever. This causes a some of them to disengage from studies altogether. Then it is not a stretch to imagine that some of them may not be very good at their job either. The lawsuit and the accusations of casteism has to be now taken with a huge pinch of salt. To be clear, I don&#x27;t know if any of the accusations in that lawsuit are true or not. But I do know that every middle class parent (including mine) drills into their kids the idea that you have to work freaking hard at studies to &quot;get some where&quot;. Everything about that 90 percent statistic can be explained through economics (already rich with all its advantages) or through desperation (high caste+ poor =&gt; no chance except if you work really hard). Of course I knew a few so called &quot;lower caste&quot; people in IIT who got in through the &quot;general category&quot; ie purely on merit. They were just as good as anybody there and are also doing well in the tech scene in US. edit: Added the below sentence.<p>The cynic in me thinks this guy accuser in the lawsuit is trying to hide his incompetence by taking advantage of the BLM and current sentiments.
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sabujpover 4 years ago
it&#x27;s not just caste, I&#x27;ve seen fights between various &quot;types&quot; of hindus and Indians, e.g. north indian vs south, east vs west, jain vs non-jain, hindu vs muslim (also west bengali vs bangladeshi), whether you support kashmir independence or not, it&#x27;s nonstop
eruditelyover 4 years ago
Just fyi there are non upper caste Indians, I’m Sikh so caste distinctions are forbidden for us. I’m a “Saini” my name is Ricky Saini and I’m not sure this fits with my experience as a lot of the people in my family(who are Indian of course) are not upper caste. I would be shocked to learn if this was true. Just so you guys know the modern Indian community not only Punjabi’s try very cars to be against caste. So don’t think we’re not trying or anything. We try really hard.
subsubzeroover 4 years ago
Never knew caste discrimination was alive and well, this article is an eye-opener. Some questions I have regarding these things, if a Dalit is considered an &quot;untouchable&quot; how would they even get into an elite univ? I have heard of reservations but going to a school where a majority of your classmates don&#x27;t like you due to your caste must be incredibly tough, also how do they afford it? state subsidies?
rizpanjwaniover 4 years ago
This truly bothers me that people bring their religious&#x2F;casteist&#x2F;nationalist&#x2F;etc. baggage with them when they immigrate. I thought immigrants hope to start anew in a promising developed country precisely because of these issues back in their home countries. Why not leave everything behind and try to adhere to the liberal values that attracted us here in the first place?
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jamesonover 4 years ago
Could the core problem be related to how majority of Indian couple I know who went through arranged marriage gets married to the same caste?<p>Which is... essentially even though one might say caste is abolished, you know having a higher (or equal) caste still has advantage and favoritism towards alike caste is cultivated (possibly unconsciously, but the story implies deliberately)
revelover 4 years ago
I know this article is about Indian tech workers living in the US but it seems part of a broader trend in Indian society.<p>I&#x27;m not Indian but I have worked and lived in India for a long time. In my opinion this problem is getting worse. In the same way that American society is increasingly bimodal, wealth and power are further concentrating in the upper echelons of Indian society. From an outsider&#x27;s perspective it seems like within the two peaks competition has increased, so insiders will feel like the country has become increasingly meritocratic and technocratic. What I think has happened instead is that the wealthiest, most autocratic families have seen competition tighten, but the overall wealth concentrated at the top has increased dramatically.<p>I don&#x27;t know what the long-term effects will be on Indian society but it&#x27;s going to become an existential problem if not addressed at some point.
thewileyoneover 4 years ago
Ah, the secret is finally exposed to the West.<p>I worked for a MNC with teams across Asia. I found that teams outside of India were primarily upper-caste because you had to get recommended to be an expat team.<p>Also, these Indian national upper-caste members would look down on the lower-caste staff in the country that they were working in, using KPIs to force them out of their teams completely.<p>My division boss, upper-caste, forced me to take on one person that would solve all my team&#x27;s problems. Long story short, he couldn&#x27;t fix the problems because the source was with another division, led by another upper-caste.<p>Now, I&#x27;m not saying that they are all bad, but they not all good either. It&#x27;s sad that the lower-caste don&#x27;t get the same opportunities though because I met many lower-caste guys who knew their stuff, but knew that they weren&#x27;t going to go anywhere in their careers.
amaiover 4 years ago
&quot;...he was allegedly told by Cisco&#x27;s human resources team that &quot;caste discrimination was not unlawful&quot;.&quot;<p>WTF?
testemailfordg2over 4 years ago
Well, a child gets to know about his caste first time either from his parents or from the people in the environment he grows up into. In my case I faced reverse casteism, a Brahmin (that&#x27;s what I&#x27;ve been tagged) rejected by a girl (Rajput -Kshatriya) after she asked me my caste, following a 3 month relationship. Not because she didn&#x27;t love me, but because of the difficulties that arise due to inter-caste marriages. But after a relationship of 10 years, we finally got married. In those 10 years things had changed in society and inter-caste marriages became more acceptable. So, this casteism is both ways...But again could be karma for me or of my forefathers...Doesn&#x27;t matter
GuB-42over 4 years ago
Just looking at the numbers, that 90% of Indian techies are upper-caste is not that bad.<p>According to the article the lower caste makes up 25% of the population, so presumably, 75% are upper caste. It means someone upper caste is 3 times more likely to be a techie compared to lower caste.<p>By comparison, a man is 4 times more likely to be in tech than a woman, and asians in the US are 10 more times more likely to be in tech than whites and 30 times more likely than blacks!<p>So there is certainly a gap, but a surprisingly small one considering the difference in status and presumably wealth and education.<p>Of course, it doesn&#x27;t excuse the caste system, and especially not the difference in treatment at the workplace.
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flashyfaffe2over 4 years ago
Being quite ignorant upon this topic, but witnessed sneaky behaviour in my company ( emails with with courtesy sentences systematically missing) I wad wondering to which degree this could explain why India is lagging behind China?<p>Any thoughts?
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hairbandover 4 years ago
I am not American so I do not fully understand the legal system in US, but it seems this is a lawsuit that alleges caste based discrimination, and the lawsuit is currently pending judgement. If that is the case, shouldn&#x27;t all the names be anonymized? Is it acceptable in US to make public the names of the accused but not of the accuser? Its one thing to reveal names when they are found guilty, but thats not the case here.
pogorniyover 4 years ago
Casts is institutionalized poverty trap <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cycle_of_poverty" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Cycle_of_poverty</a>.<p>Good reading in this context: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unequal_Childhoods" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Unequal_Childhoods</a>
nthackerover 4 years ago
At first I didn&#x27;t believe what I was reading, since my experience has not been anything close to whats been described.<p>Then I found : <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.notablebrahmins.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.notablebrahmins.com</a><p>NB Score, WTF: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.notablebrahmins.com&#x2F;nb-score&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.notablebrahmins.com&#x2F;nb-score&#x2F;</a>
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JumpCrisscrossover 4 years ago
&gt; <i>the priests -- or the &quot;Brahman&quot; class -- were at the top, the warriors or &quot;Kshatriyas&quot; came next, the merchants or &quot;Vaishyas&quot; formed the third tier, while labourers, artisans, and servants, known as &quot;Shudras&quot;, came last and essentially served the other three castes.</i><p>Out of curiosity, where is the traditional upper&#x2F;lower caste line?
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Nescoover 4 years ago
Could this be counted as white privilege?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indiatoday.in&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;science-and-technology&#x2F;story&#x2F;20010730-controversial-study-says-upper-caste-indians-are-of-european-descent-lower-castes-of-asians-773932-2001-07-30" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.indiatoday.in&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;science-and-technology&#x2F;st...</a>
everdriveover 4 years ago
I learned about the caste system in school. And realistically, outside of a book or two, I haven&#x27;t heard a thing about it until this article. I appreciate that my news sources have no generally been focused on India, but this really rather surprising. I frankly didn&#x27;t even know the caste system in India was still practiced.
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nnainover 4 years ago
A huge problem with the way reservation (affirmative action) is given to Scheduled Castes candidates, is that it&#x27;s enjoyed by very few families. I know people who have 3 generations of govt officers (foreign services and all) due to reservation. While a majority for whom reservation was put in place never receive it.
nirav72over 4 years ago
I never really thought this was an issue here in the U.S. I was born here in the U.S. But based on my very common Gujarati lastnamre, my lower caste status is obvious. But I&#x27;v never faced any caste related issues in the U.S. Not even with indian co-workers that grew up India and could be more caste aware.
pkphilipover 4 years ago
As someone who has worked in the US and in other parts of the world, I have witnessed first hand the regressive attitude of many upper caste Indians towards others from lower castes - even their colleagues in the US and Europe.<p>It is shameful that in this time and age such attitudes continue to exist.
coldteaover 4 years ago
Of course, how&#x2F;when would lower-caste get the opportunies to study and&#x2F;or immigrate as easily?
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kbos87over 4 years ago
Inept question: would it be possible to outright lie about ones’ caste, or is it easy enough for someone else to figure out? How? I don’t see an ounce of shame in doing so if it levels an unjust playing field.
DarkWiiPlayerover 4 years ago
&gt; Except, this time, it is happening in the US tech industry, a place that people normally associate with egalitarianism and a thirst for talent regardless of colour, race, religion, or any other creed.<p>In what universe?
happysnailover 4 years ago
Culture and social structures are very hard to change once they take hold...
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C1sc0catover 4 years ago
Wow that high - I sort of knew that this was an issue from my contacts in the international Trade union net work.<p>I will have to send that to one of the people I know who got Caste discrimination added to UK Law.
just-juan-postover 4 years ago
How does one tactfully determine what percentage of a company is Indian?
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satisfactionover 4 years ago
Indians don&#x27;t practice caste system because caste system exists, caste system exist because Indians want to practice caste system. You really think they don&#x27;t game the visa system?
news_hackerover 4 years ago
If 90% in the US are &quot;upper caste&quot;, their lived reality isn&#x27;t really &quot;upper caste&quot;... by virtue of being part of the 90%.
lilSebastianover 4 years ago
Working for a large Indian outsourcer, the caste system is alive and well, and if you&#x27;re not Indian, your the bottom of the pile.
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eatbitseverydayover 4 years ago
If name is strongly associated with caste, can one not simply change it? In my country (USA) one can do so to nearly almost anything.
Diederichover 4 years ago
This is only indirectly related to the article at hand, but it effectively is an example of a &#x27;caste&#x27; system in the United States.<p>I was born and raised in California, and ended up living in Arkansas, where I met my wife to be, who had been born and raised in Georgia (the state), near the border of Alabama.<p>My wife had always been somewhat of an outsider from her family, with the exception of her father. They were very close.<p>When we decided to marry, she asked me to meet her family, so we drove to Columbus and stayed for a week.<p>I met her father and liked him immediately. He had a thick west Georgia accent, and had a blue collar job (telephone line repair man) for decades.<p>My wife to be told me in private that her father didn&#x27;t know what to make of me. In his old school southern mind, the clearest divide was between the races, and between north and south. We were white, so that wasn&#x27;t an obstacle, but I&#x27;m from the &#x27;far&#x27; west, so he didn&#x27;t instinctively know what &#x27;box&#x27; I belonged in.<p>She suggested that I ask him if we could go out and shoot on his out of town hunting property, which I did. He was delighted but wary.<p>So the next day he loaded up his guns and drove us out to his 34 acre hunting lot some miles out of town.<p>He had confided in my wife to be earlier: &quot;I don&#x27;t know if this city boy knows how to shoot. I don&#x27;t know if he&#x27;ll be safe.&quot;<p>Unbeknownst to him, while I had grown up in the city with my grandparents, my grandfather owned a lot in the desert outside of Los Angeles, and we&#x27;d taken HIS arsenal out there many times to go shooting.<p>Back on the rural lot in Georgia, he handed me a .308 Winchester bolt action and one round, and asked me to shoot a sapling about 100 feet away, while pulling himself and his daughter to stand behind me. I loaded the rifle, aimed and shot that little tree down. He asked me to do it again, and I did.<p>He leaned into his daughter and said, &quot;Ok Michelle I think this boy is all right.&quot;<p>While he and his family had been friendly to me before, after that moment, I was treated like family.<p>Apparently at least some people from far off California know how to shoot.<p>Years after the wedding, I asked him about that day, and he was embarrassed. I told him not to be, that it was fine.<p>He said that he didn&#x27;t know any other way.<p>In most every way I could determine, Mr. Shaw was a good, kind and honest man, but he grew up and continued to hold views that many, including his daughter and son in law, found repugnant. But he had learned to keep them to himself, and when he died, those views died with him, and were not passed on to his daughter, nor his grandson.<p>I&#x27;m taking a risk saying this, but here it goes: these things take time to change. Before a hundred years ago, for the most part, I believe the &#x27;rules of society&#x27; only changed very slowly, over generations, and when such changes happened quickly for whatever reason, the results were almost always terrible and bloody.<p>Our civilization is learning how to change more quickly, and we definitely need to focus on figuring out how to be even more flexible, all with sensitivity and sensibility.
UhDevover 4 years ago
Castes Rule Everything Around Me. C.R.E.A.M.
gandutravelerover 4 years ago
Such a clickbait article. It&#x27;s no way 90% and the article doesn&#x27;t even provide how they got that number.
sabujpover 4 years ago
The underlying issues with caste based affirmative action are similar to those seen as with the prop 16 fight in CA. I think removing the wording in the CA const is a bad idea. This should have been approached differently, it&#x27;s a quandary that really cannot be solved until everyone who qualifies gets a chance to go to college. With remote learning I think we can now allow and enroll many more students.
goku99over 4 years ago
I am shocked how this ended up in Hacker News.<p>I believe this is just human nature to view everything in binary, and discrimination looks like inbuilt into us, it&#x27;s like remanence of our animal nature. I would just like to move on and focus on things that matter to the world, than complain. We are imperfect and stupid, with our own biases. There is no right way.
alisweover 4 years ago
This makes me think of the fact that 99.99% of all the techies in Sweden are white.<p>(from what I&#x27;ve seen)
ashishbover 4 years ago
&gt; Over 90% of Indian techies in the US are upper-caste Indians<p>What&#x27;s the source of this statistic?
gandutravelerover 4 years ago
Does Affirmative action mean that us shorter Indians will get to play in NBA?
BrandoElFollitoover 4 years ago
How are non-Indians classified in the cast system?<p>Are they completely out, invisible to the hierarchy? But in such case how a non-Indian marrying an Indian is perceived? Does this depend on the nationality&#x2F;skin color?
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ggmover 4 years ago
Ask yourself what you would expect Indian communist party positions on caste to be, bearing in mind that India has democratically elected (year on year) Marxist state governments with populations larger than many western economies.<p>It&#x27;s complicated. What I read, admittedly cursorily, suggests they are still grappling with caste issues.<p>I hoped for clear answers. The problem defies class based analysis. There are wealthy industrialist from the scheduled classes, there are jains and khatri who choose to live in poverty.
ocithrowawayover 4 years ago
This <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;us.macmillan.com&#x2F;author&#x2F;sujathagidla&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;us.macmillan.com&#x2F;author&#x2F;sujathagidla&#x2F;</a> writer says even Communists are not immune to caste influences. This book is a hard read, but it is worth a read to understand some of the background: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;us.macmillan.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;9780374537821" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;us.macmillan.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;9780374537821</a>
teekertover 4 years ago
So... They nicely fit in with the upper-caste Americans. As long as you have a system where you make some &quot;upper-caste&quot; universities so expensive that only upper-caste people can attend them, you will keep the caste system alive. This is why education should not be privatized, there are no equal opportunities within the US as well as in India. It&#x27;s all about what family you are born into.<p>The whole caste system is also very much alive in the US. Things like good education, crime-free neighborhoods and good healthcare are all for the rich(er).<p>Edit: This: &quot;Except, this time, it is happening in the US tech industry, a place that people normally associate with egalitarianism and a thirst for talent regardless of colour, race, religion, or any other creed.&quot; is not really what I associate the tech industry with either. I feel it is is still very white male (like me) dominated.
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jrd259over 4 years ago
Isabel Wilkerson&#x27;s new book Caste compares the systematic racism of the USA, the caste system of India, and the Nazi genocide of the Jews. She attempts to describe a fundamental framework of caste (including divine mandate) that encompasses all three. She reports on how Martin Luther King came to see himself as a Dalit (undercaste). She also provides a brief introduction to the (Indian) caste system. Quite relevant to this discussion.
anukinover 4 years ago
TLDR; do not read the comment section. It reads like the Indian subreddit.
erikeriksonover 4 years ago
Here we just call it class.
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reactspaover 4 years ago
A personal anecdote about caste in India:<p>I had to move to Chennai to work there some years ago. As I went around looking for an apartment to rent, I was openly told by several Brahmin homeowners that they weren&#x27;t going to rent to me because I wasn&#x27;t a Brahmin.<p>The Brahmins have destroyed India. (I&#x27;m from one of the &quot;upper castes&quot; myself.)
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chephover 4 years ago
&gt; It may seem bizarre that the caste system, a centuries-old system that organises and stratifies human society, continues to play a heavy role in deciding which Indians prosper and which don&#x27;t within a space many consider to be an uber-meritocracy -- the US tech landscape.<p>Well for I&#x27;m not surprised, and further I doubt anybody in it considers it an &quot;uber-meritocracy&quot;, it really is much more perverse.
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knownover 4 years ago
1) Compete Within Your Caste <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Apples_and_oranges" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Apples_and_oranges</a><p>2) <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Economic_mobility" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Economic_mobility</a> != <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Social_mobility" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Social_mobility</a><p>3) Reservations is not a Poverty alleviation program <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act,_2005" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;National_Rural_Employment_Guar...</a><p>4) In 1932 British regime offered a separate country to Lower caste where Upper caste can live on a Visa <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Communal_Award" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Communal_Award</a><p>5) marks != merit &quot;Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid&quot; --Einstein
LatteLazyover 4 years ago
The core issue in market heavy economies is that people with money make money and everyone else doesn&#x27;t. Being smart and hard working and having poor parents means you will be poor. Being dumb and lazy with rich parents means you will be rich. Maybe with 3 or 4 full generations of nothing but hard work and luck you might make it up from working to middle class. Maybe.<p>This is never really discussed directly. Only using a proxy like race or caste.
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triceratopsover 4 years ago
Is this meant to be a news article or an editorial? The claims in the suit are horrifying and important to report and investigate. The tone is more suited to an opinion piece - and a badly-written one at that. Surely there&#x27;s better reporting on this topic out there.
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knownover 4 years ago
Upper caste Indians are operating an Organized mafia in America which was evident in CISCO <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;YLVtE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;YLVtE</a> and ORACLE <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;XTZ5f" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;XTZ5f</a> and hence the petition to US Congress <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.petition2congress.com&#x2F;20324&#x2F;expel-indian-americans-from-usa" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.petition2congress.com&#x2F;20324&#x2F;expel-indian-american...</a>
one2knowover 4 years ago
Why does Hacker News censor any claim about racial bias in tech hiring? Does Hacker News support free speech?
OneGuy123over 4 years ago
It&#x27;s funny how this is NEVER mentioned in the media.<p>I guess BLM is &quot;so hot&quot; right now (but to be honest this caste issue was never mention even before BLM also).<p>Perhaps this is because in the West this concepts of casts within society is completely foreign to us.<p>So for a Westerner this does not create any acute psychological response if someone says &quot;I&#x27;m a Dalit&quot;. A westerner would be like &quot;huh, yeah ok man, I have no idea what that is.&quot;<p>So in the mind of a westerner this &quot;he&#x27;s a Dalit&quot; doesn&#x27;t create any associations by which he would judge this person because the concept of &quot;casts&quot; is so foreign to us.<p>This is also why we ignore it + westerners are not affected by this system as it applies only to Indians.<p>I did hear stories though that the upper cast Indians in a managerial position onyl hire other upper cast Indiands and keep whites because &quot;they know they perform&quot;. But upper cast indians still severely favourite their own vs whites for example.<p>I guess you could say that their &quot;you&#x27;re a Dalit gtfo&quot; is the same as someone in the west says &quot;you&#x27;re black gtfo&quot;.
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zapdriveover 4 years ago
This is an alarmist piece of shit written by someone trying to push a propaganda. Living in India, I can tell you who is the much much much marginalized group today: poor &quot;upper caste&quot; families. The lower castes have reservations (quotas) almost everywhere, from educational institutions to govt job, to elected representatives. They don&#x27;t even have to pay any fees (at least in the state where I grew up: Punjab). The poor upper caste families have the worst of everything: lack of money AND lack of opportunity.<p>Case in point: one of my father&#x27;s classmates from college, who belongs to a lower caste, got a very high ranking IAS (Indian Administrative Services) govt job due to the above mentioned reservation. He was at a time the second most powerful bureaucrat in the state. His kids got educated in the best schools and got the best tuitions and still got admission in a med school using their reservation. Now compare that to one of my really hard working &quot;high caste&quot; cousin who lives in village, is poor, did not have the privelege of a good education, wanted to be a doctor but could not get admission into med school because he did not have any &quot;quotas&quot;. So now tell me with a straight face that the &quot;lower caste&quot; are most marginalized TODAY. I&#x27;m not talking about 50-100 years ago. I&#x27;m talking about TODAY.
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kingkawnover 4 years ago
Abolish caste and class alike
dnprockover 4 years ago
My dad told me how the South Vietnam government divided and excluded people. That was why they didn&#x27;t have the people&#x27;s support. They had better fire power. But they couldn&#x27;t win the war. The communists came and reduced everyone to poverty. China doesn&#x27;t have these class problems because they too had a Cultural Revolution. India has this problem for so long.<p>In America, everyone tells you how bad Communism is. But they ignore the inequalities produced by crony capitalism. I see the same movie being played again. If we don&#x27;t address these problems, the crazy revolution is coming.
rutherbloodover 4 years ago
Wherever Indians go, they take caste with them.
krageonover 4 years ago
This article is almost a caricature of articles like itself. What makes this interesting to people? Is it because it&#x27;s so over the top with bad tropes it becomes funny?
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roenxiover 4 years ago
This article appears to be about a <i>current</i> lawsuit. The claims that are being made are outrageous, but that is what is expected of a plaintiffs claims in this sort of lawsuit.<p>I doubt I&#x27;ll make many friends adding this in, but an uncomfortable statistical artefact of an affirmative action program is the candidates in that program are very likely going to have lower average competence than the rest of the cohort. That observation in particular was (1) probably not acceptable in the workplace and (2) possibly justifiable depending on how serious the affirmative action policies were.<p>The statistical results around an affective action program are all actually pretty brutal, both to the people in the program and the people who aren&#x27;t. I forget where to find a good link, but it is related to my favourite stats paradox, Simpson&#x27;s paradox. They are not a tool people should want to use.
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