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Down the ergonomic keyboard rabbit hole

251 pointsby StevenWatermanover 4 years ago

40 comments

dkerstenover 4 years ago
I use a slightly configured Kinesis Advantage 2 and colemak as my keyboard layout (I used to make the Kinesis do the colemak, but now its just qwerty and the OS handles colemak). I find typing on it extremely comfortable. I&#x27;ve also found these beneficial: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mycarpaltunnel.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.mycarpaltunnel.com&#x2F;</a><p>I like Ergodox, especially because of their super flexible configuration, but I dislike the flatness of the keyboard compared to the Kinesis and last time I looked, they limited the length of macros &quot;so you don&#x27;t store passwords in them&quot;.. ehh, that&#x27;s a stupid reason for adding limitations. As an adult, I can make my own decisions on what I store in my macros, thanks (I use a password manager, so its not passwords)
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petercooperover 4 years ago
Quite the rabbit hole and definitely worth the read :-)<p>This seems a good place to bring up an odd experience of mine. I&#x27;ve had carpal tunnel for decades but no longer get many flare ups. After trying numerous keyboards, the solution turned out to be using Apple&#x27;s Magic Keyboard and whatever their huge trackpad is called. The key for me seems to be low key travel, a smallish keyboard (to avoid any stretching), and avoiding mice (the only flare ups I get anymore are from prolonged use of the family PC). This seems to run counter to most experiences, though!
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samatmanover 4 years ago
When I purchased my Ergodox, I also discovered that I cross-type the letter Y, and my muscle memory would lead me to hit a layer key instead, in the default layout, which would cause a bunch of the letter keys to do different things.<p>My solution was to reprogram the layer key to be a null key that doesn&#x27;t do anything, so instead of &quot;Y equals your keyboard is now broken&quot; it was &quot;Y means nothing happens&quot;. I kept it that way for a couple weeks, until my nervous system was rewired, and turned it back into a layer key.<p>These days, the remaining problem is that I&#x27;ve moved a few &#x27;glyph&#x27; keys, so when I&#x27;m on the laptop my fingers go to the wrong place when I try to type e.g. &quot;-&quot;. It&#x27;s like I have two modes with substantial overlap, and sometimes it takes awhile to switch to the laptop mode.<p>Not the end of the world, and more than made up for by the convenience and ergonomics of the Ergodox.<p>Edit to add: from this and other reports, it&#x27;s clear that for some people, the ortholinear layout requires substantial adjustment. I wasn&#x27;t one of those people, it was a rapid accommodation and I don&#x27;t consciously notice switching between ortholinear and staggered. It would be nice if there were a way for people to guess which category they&#x27;re in, before shelling out $300 and change on a keyboard!
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nine_kover 4 years ago
My 2¢.<p>I used a traditional keyboard, and could not stop peeking at it. I of course remember where each key is, but <i>aligning</i> my hands to it was periodically required, so that I could keep hitting the right keys.<p>Then I used a traditional-layout split keyboard. It was easier on my arms, but not much on my hands, and I still needed to peek at the keyboard(s) to readjust my fingers. The fact that traditional keyboards shift rows of keys half-width side to side every row, like bricks in a wall, was an obvious obstacle.<p>Now I got an Ergodox EZ. Its keys are in straight columns, and this helps me a lot. Many keys went to the thumb cluster, lowering the load on pinkies. Then modifier keys went to the home row, and stuff like Ctrl+shift, next to the home row, which helps immensely when using Emacs or VSCode.<p>My problem with Ergodox is that its pinky columns are uncomfortably positioned for my hand, I still have to move the hand a lot to hit P or Q. Also, a number of keys are hard to reach without moving the hand a lot, which sort of makes little sense when you have layers.<p>Mechanical switches are also a tough issue. Stuff like MX blue or Gateton green give good tactile feedback, but are loud and take effort to press. MX browns are not quiet enough to count as quiet, and give too little feedback in exchange. Gateron clears are my current choice: not ideal, but at least quiet and soft.<p>So my next idea is a Kyria with Kailh choc blue (25g) switches. In particular, it should make typing a P easy, and there are no extra keys to force your hand off the home row position.<p>BTW I wish &quot;normal&quot; keyboards, especially in laptops, took some ideas from the QMK firmware, or adopted it as is. Particularly home row modifiers and the idea of layers are very useful. Layers are currently implemented in a crude way with Fn keys on many laptop keyboards, so customers already are acquainted with the idea.
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bigjimmyk3over 4 years ago
I also fell down the rabbit hole earlier this year, and eventually I learned that keyboard layouts are like the pirate code: they&#x27;re more like guidelines than rules, really. I don&#x27;t know why I felt weird about modifying my personal layouts, but once I got past that I had a much better experience. I don&#x27;t think it has negatively affected my ability to type on &quot;normal&quot; keyboard in any material way.
bsimpsonover 4 years ago
The author&#x27;s narration is delightful.<p>Really nice to hear the voice of the author, the meta commentary on his own writing, and the proud glee he takes in captioning his doodles.
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SimonPStevensover 4 years ago
I have a ergodox, and while I love it for writing prose in English, I struggle with it a bit for coding. It feels like it needs an extra column or two on the right hand side to have enough space for the symbols and special keys (arrows, home&#x2F;end&#x2F;pgup&#x2F;pgdown, etc). I&#x27;ve tried all kinds of different placements or multi layer layouts to try and make everything comfortable to reach but whatever I try I can&#x27;t quite get it right.<p>I&#x27;m going to try a separate numpad next I think so I can map some things on to that and have it just to the right to gain the extra key space.
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Symbioteover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m keeping a gallery (just for a quick overview) of ergonomic keyboards. It might be useful for others interested in this thread. There&#x27;s a lot of options, from something you can order from a large retailer, to a kit to solder yourself, to just plans to download.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aposymbiont.github.io&#x2F;split-keyboards&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aposymbiont.github.io&#x2F;split-keyboards&#x2F;</a>
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galkkover 4 years ago
I own ergodox and it has the same issue as the most of the &quot;enthusiast&quot; keyboards (dactyl&#x2F;manuform, ergodox, plank) - it hates non-english layouts. Typing in Russian is a struggle. The common answer is to remap the keys to double function etc - but this is a bad workaround.<p>I want something with more columns. I get the &quot;limited finger movement&quot; idea, but sometimes it is necessary. I don&#x27;t want to do crazy customizations of layout, I just want split (ortholinear, not required to solder) keyboard to replace my Microsoft Sculpt
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bsimpsonover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s amazing that we constantly use tools with dozens of buttons permanently fixed to them, but rarely think about how we might yield those buttons to our own purposes. We just accept the defaults without considering other possibilities.<p>Also gets into the idea of personalized UI more generally. You can imagine something like Photoshop ought to adapt what tools it shows based on how someone uses it. Then again, that would make learning&#x2F;teaching and sharing really difficult.
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larzangover 4 years ago
I would have been perfectly happy if Microsoft had just kept making the Natural 4000 forever. Logitech has some 20+ year old designs they keep producing because for some people they&#x27;re perfection, and I&#x27;d hoped Microsoft would continue likewise since it&#x27;s been well over a decade with the 4000 too.<p>But nope, it&#x27;s dead, and the replacement isn&#x27;t nearly as good.
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maxekmanover 4 years ago
I love my Kinesis Advantage 2 and would never describe it as old fashioned! If anything it has a look that follows it’s function and happens to not look like the sleekest thing. But one should not look at the keyboard anyway. :P
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yc-kralnover 4 years ago
I am a fairly competent (110+ wpm) typist, across a few different layouts (mostly qwerty&#x2F;qwertz). I don&#x27;t do this kind of deep customization for the same reason I don&#x27;t use many plugins in vim or a browser: It would render me completely useless on 99.999999999% of the other terminals out there. I have a few different laptops, a desktop, and even with total control of those devices, I still end up on other people&#x27;s hardware.<p>If you have medical reasons, I mean, I guess it&#x27;s better than nothing, but this reads to me like the computing equivalent of moving into the woods and becoming a hermit.
mekenover 4 years ago
I, myself, went down a similar rabbit hole years ago. I could probably write a similarly long blog post, detailing all the twists and turns, highs and lows of that period. Reading this was kinda triggering some repressed PTSD from it lol.<p>The highs and lows, thinking that you&#x27;ve found the perfect layout, only to encounter an edge case which there&#x27;s no solution for and giving up. The continual wishful thinking that &quot;one more modification&quot; and THEN I would have the perfect layout, without ever knowing if that&#x27;s true. And then when do you stop? I couldn&#x27;t find a point where I would ever stop, it was maddening. I used a Japanese keyboard for a while [1] to leverage the extra keys on either side of space bar, but then I realized that I probably wouldn&#x27;t be able to use a laptop normally ever again, which was enough to snap me back to QWERTY.<p>In the end, I did end up going back to QWERTY, but with some modifications, which I really think improve the problems I have with the layout (sore pinkies) [2], most commonly from jupyter notebooks (hitting shift-enter). It also solves emacs pinky.<p>[1] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;SolidTek-Keyboard-Languages-JAPANESE-Bilingual&#x2F;dp&#x2F;B004RPQ8KU" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;SolidTek-Keyboard-Languages-JAPANESE-...</a><p>[2] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ebanner&#x2F;dotfiles#keyboard-layout" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;ebanner&#x2F;dotfiles#keyboard-layout</a>
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lawnover 4 years ago
Apart from the amazingly crazy story, this is very well written and worth a read even if the title doesn&#x27;t interest you. And the paint images go so well with the text.
jszymborskiover 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve been enjoying my ergodox, but have yet to venture out into the layout customization side of things.<p>The default layout (mostly QWERTY, but split ortholinear) took a week or so to learn and has been totally fine. My only problem with it is that so many of the modifiers depend on my pinkies, which are my weakest finger.<p>Luckily, the default layout maps control as &quot;hold Z key&quot; which means my pinky doesn&#x27;t need to travel as much, but it still leaves me with a sore pinky. I&#x27;m thinking of mapping a key like &quot;O&quot; that gets hit with a stronger finger like my ring, but inertia is great when changing a habit you&#x27;ve developed daily.<p>One thing I&#x27;ll say about the ergodox is that you really notice it&#x27;s value when you go back to your e.g. laptop&#x27;s keyboard. Whenever I use my T495, I immediately notice that, while my typing speed is higher, it&#x27;s putting a far greater strain on my hands and wrists (and back!)
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jerezzprimeover 4 years ago
Why is there not an ergonomic keyboard with trackball or some other cursor device built in, so I can use the cursor and mouse buttons without moving my hands out of place? I currently use (and love) am Advantage 2, but I would happily drop another $400 on an ergonomic keyboard with mouse.
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seludover 4 years ago
Does the article say which website or tool was used to relearn to type, did I miss it? I&#x27;ve got this journey (hopefully not all of it) ahead of me and am looking for ways to aid the transition.
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jgiliasover 4 years ago
I have a kinesis freestyle. Really like how I can move the parts around depending on what feels more comfortable at the moment. However, I haven&#x27;t gone down the layout rabbit hole yet.<p>Are dvorak, colemak, etc also useful when writing in languages other than English?<p>EDIT: ok, found the answer to my question - depends on the language, but generally not so much. So, a question to multilingual layout geeks - do you learn the best layout for each language? Or do you just optimize the most used one and stick to whatever is the default for other languages?
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hexbinencodedover 4 years ago
I laugh when I read this because the DataHand was so much better but inefficiently manufactured and badly-priced. Five motions per finger well, macros, and mouse control 20-something years ago.
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kylepdmover 4 years ago
I used to have consistent but relatively mild wrist pain from using a standard keyboard all day, but I was able to alleviate that once I switched to a split ergonomic keyboard which I made.<p>For anyone who also wants to get their feet wet in the world of custom keyboards it certainly isn&#x27;t as daunting as you might think. You don&#x27;t have to necessarily go ortholinear, and you certainly don&#x27;t have to stray from QWERTY. In fact, just learning to properly touch type and making sure the &quot;right&quot; fingers are hitting the right keys goes a long way with a split keyboard.<p>I found a lot of my own wrist pain was from the unnatural position that your arms and wrists are in to support a non split keyboard + the unnecessary hand&#x2F;wrist movement to hit keys with the &quot;wrong&quot; fingers. An ortholinear (or at least column linear) keyboard can go a long way in teaching you where your fingers are supposed to go as long as you are willing to spend a weekend or two learning how to type again.<p>If you are thinking of diving into making your own, I would recommend the following vendors for kits:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keyhive.xyz&#x2F;shop" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keyhive.xyz&#x2F;shop</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keeb.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;keeb.io&#x2F;</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.littlekeyboards.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.littlekeyboards.com&#x2F;</a>
jedbergover 4 years ago
When I worked in IT, I had a love&#x2F;hate relationship with ergo keyboards. The worst thing in the world is when you sit down at someone&#x27;s computer to fix their &quot;quick problem&quot; and it takes you forever because you have to figure out their weird keyboard first, or run back to the supply cabinet to get a regular keyboard and hook that up so you can type.<p>But I myself have been using the Microsoft ergo keyboard for 20+ years. Any time I start a new job, the very first thing I do is request an ergo keyboard.
narrationboxover 4 years ago
Your audio narration widget that plays in sync with the paragraph is really cool. I am going to borrow the idea and add it to Narration Box :)
questionforover 4 years ago
Guys if you are in the market for split keyboards and can operate a soldering iron, the endgame is Quefrency 2 (60%, you actually don’t need more) or Sinc (TKL I think - without the numpad but with macro row) from keeb.io with Zilent switches. It’s programmable through QMK (so you can use layers).<p>You can print out decent cases for it (although I prefer aluminum plates) and the switch quality you get with Zilents is far beyond anything offered by pre-built vendors. It’s about 1-2 hours to put together, you only need to solder switches which is super easy and kinda fun. Also you can customize the layout, meaning the size of keys used (1u backspace etc etc). Once you put it together any of these keyboards work OOB now programming is required and there is even a really nice new app (Via) that allows to do all the mapping (even lighting if that’s your thing) via GUI.<p>They use standard layout so you don’t have to relearn (I have Ergodox and I used it once - whatever the benefit it may offer over split keyboard is negligible compared to the downside of having to adjust to new keyboard and then possibly mess up decades worth of typing habits, so using regular keyboard which happens often still would suddenly feel awkward.<p>I have both (Quefrency 1 not 2 though) and not affiliated with Keeb people at all, just a happy customer.<p>Also I run both with blank keycaps so I guess I am a touch typist? Other keyboard I have are Ergodox, Kinesis Edge and Microsoft Sculpt. Quefrency &#x2F; Sinc are simply leagues ahead of any of those, I can’t imagine using anything else.<p>I saw the split Ultimate Hacking keyboard and it looks nice and idea to have a custom thumb cluster or trackpoint it enticing, but the bottom row on Quefrency &#x2F; Sinc covers maybe 80% of possible use cases I could come up with for thumb cluster and QMK layers + Karabiner Elements or similar easily handles the rest of the 20%. Losing the Zilent switches in favor of Kalih that the UHK uses is not worth any of the added customization options.<p>AMA if you’re curious, again, this may read like an ad, but i am in no way affiliated<p>EDIT: also I did go down the split keyboard path because I started to get serious elbow pain (tennis elbow) which was in part related to climbing but got really aggravated by the regular keyboard. Then I started to feel numbness in my pinkies and that was actually scary. It is beyond me how people who spend 6-8 hours typing can use regular keyboards after they turn 30
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autocorrover 4 years ago
Thanks for the great write-up! It&#x27;s interesting to see how much room there is for personalizing and optimization once you lift the lid on the first change. I started the journey with an ErgoDox and now am typing this on a fully custom hand-wired beast. The great thing about the ErgoDox though is that (a) you can just buy it and (b) it runs QMK and can be programmed through their simple web interface.<p>For anyone reading this and seeing all the craziness in the post and the linked comments, it&#x27;s entirely do-able to learn multiple layouts&#x2F;keyboards and keep them mentally separate. The key thing is to use them both regularly. It doesn&#x27;t have to be an either-or proposition between &quot;use the standard keyboard of the Earth&quot; and &quot;use this hyper-personalized one&quot;. You can in fact use both as long as you don&#x27;t go cold-turkey and stop using a standard keyboard for six months.
castillar76over 4 years ago
So here&#x27;s my thing, and I&#x27;m wondering if this is true for anyone else. I have a huge keyboard switch tester, and I&#x27;ve heard excellent things about the Ergodox and Moonlander keyboards. But that&#x27;s a <i>lot</i> of money to invest in an unknown, particularly an unknown where I don&#x27;t know if the keyboard layout will work and <i>then</i> I&#x27;d like the ability to try out some different switches to find something that will really work.<p>Seems like there&#x27;s a market here (not huge, but maybe growing?) for either a rent-with-option-to-own thing, or an exchange system wherein people can trade around to try them out.
sdenton4over 4 years ago
...And you will never be able to use a random keyboard it in the world again...
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cinntaileover 4 years ago
I feel like most ergonomic keyboards work better for regular typing. A lot of the ergonomic (split) keyboards still force your hands in awkward positions if you&#x27;re coding because of all the weird parentheses and symbols you don&#x27;t normally use. What I haven&#x27;t tried yet are ortholinear keyboards or tiny keyboards like the Atreus. Judging by the layout I&#x27;m guessing ortholinear keyboards would still force your hands into awkward positions at the (pinky) edges, so avoiding that by using a tiny keyboard might be an option?
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BrandoElFollitoover 4 years ago
I work in IT for 25+ years and had all kinds of keyboards. Some were fine, other less fine but all of them did the work.<p>I think that these (btw interesing) articles on keyboards are particularly relevant to pepole who constantly type (or hobbyists).<p>I work with a keyboard all day long and also afterward for fun but I type only a fraction of the time. I also look at the keyboard when doing so, so I am slow. But I do not need to be faster (it would be great, though) and my hands are not in the same position. I am not sure a special keyboard would help pepole in my case.
shaicolemanover 4 years ago
When people learn Colemak, sometimes they unconsciously try to &quot;ground&quot; their fingers on the home position, and that makes typing very strainful indeed when typing on the middle columns.<p>When typing on the middle column, make sure that your fingers float freely, and the middle and ring fingers should move along with your index finger, e.g. when pressing the &#x27;H&#x27; key, the middle finger should be hovering approximately between the &#x27;J&#x27; and &#x27;K&#x27; QWERTY position.
pdfttgzover 4 years ago
I also slipped into the rabbit hole. Result: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;herpiko&#x2F;unk" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;herpiko&#x2F;unk</a>
wildpeaksover 4 years ago
Considering using multiple keyboards is what triggered this rabbit hole, note that the Logitech Craft can be used with 3 computers at the same time (there are keys to switch which one you&#x27;re targeting), it&#x27;s very convenient and the keyboard is silent.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.logitech.com&#x2F;en-us&#x2F;products&#x2F;keyboards&#x2F;craft.920-008484.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.logitech.com&#x2F;en-us&#x2F;products&#x2F;keyboards&#x2F;craft.920-...</a>
samtukeover 4 years ago
Great article. No mention there, or in these comments, about using split boards vertically- I adopted this two years ago and won&#x27;t go back. It&#x27;s trivial to strap a split board to a box of approximately shoulder width. The result suits me best - forearms and hands stay vertical in the handshake position. I don&#x27;t understand why more people don&#x27;t try it.
IshKebabover 4 years ago
The problem with learning an alternative keyboard layout is that it makes you suck at QWERTY. I didn&#x27;t realise how much I type on other people&#x27;s keyboard until I tried to learn Dvorak.
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gumbyover 4 years ago
Is there any science on what ergonomic risks exist and what kinds of mediations improve things? I have only seen articles sponsored via various keyboard companies.
sethammonsover 4 years ago
I use the CloudNine split ergo mechanical keyboard. It is nearly identical to the Microsoft Ergo 4000. I lost no typing speed, unlike when I tried the ergodox ez.
m463over 4 years ago
I guess I didn&#x27;t fully <i>understand</i> how deep rabbit holes can go.
expjpiover 4 years ago
I just want to say that I loved the audio, thanks Scott
fdsfawfdsover 4 years ago
The biggest problem I find with traditional mechanical keyboards are they are too tall, you need wrist support ideally. Newer low profile keys are coming out which are much more comfortable, (I just can&#x27;t afford yet).
MeinBlutIstBlauover 4 years ago
I have that exact trackball mouse and haven&#x27;t had a single issue with Manjaro 20+. The nice thing about the usage of it with linux is it natively knows LMB &amp; RMB is MMB. In windows you need logitechs software to get it to work.<p>I&#x27;ve since become an ambidextrous mouse user. Rollerball for left, traditional for right.