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Twitter, Responsibility, and Accountability

138 pointsby blopeurover 4 years ago

21 comments

ceilingcornerover 4 years ago
&gt; The story, to be clear, appears to be fabricated, and comically so.<p>Nothing about the CBS article he linked to indicates that the story is fabricated. It&#x27;s mostly just a series of character assassinations, from Giuliani to the computer repair guy to...the Russians.<p>And that, my friends, is why Facebook and Twitter&#x27;s actions are not okay and why their insultingly duplicitous attempts to justify them aren&#x27;t going to work. The story certainly seems fake and the NY Post is a garbage paper, but that shouldn&#x27;t matter.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbsnews.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;hunter-biden-laptop-new-york-post-story&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cbsnews.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;hunter-biden-laptop-new-york-po...</a>
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hackinthebochsover 4 years ago
All this talk about the Streisand Effect really misses the point. This story was going viral regardless of anyone&#x27;s actions. What Twitter did was ensure it went viral in the context of the warnings of it being disinformation and Twitters efforts at containing its spread. Disinformation is powerful when the information spreads farther and faster than the facts or mitigating context. Ensuring the information is presented with full context is a significant win. If the goal is to reduce this story&#x27;s ability to influence the election, then Twitter&#x27;s actions were successful.
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chmod775over 4 years ago
The article touches on this in a more roundabout way, but personally I couldn&#x27;t help but feel a bit of grim satisfaction at this whole situation.<p>The newspapers who got moderated by Twitter and are now crying foul are the same ones who are the reason Twitter started with their heavy-handed proactive approach to moderation in the first place.<p>Twitter, Facebook, most platforms really, just want to be dumb service providers. But they got bullied by major news organizations who, as always, had no fucking clue what they are asking for, into becoming what they are now.<p>I don&#x27;t think anything will change though. Within their opinion columns only their inability to reflect upon past mistakes is more chronic than than their inability to think their hot-headed demands to their logical conclusions.
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xondonoover 4 years ago
&gt; That post was published the morning of March 11, when COVID-19 was still being mostly ignored.<p>I’m seeing more and more that COVID wasn’t “a thing” until mid-march, and it clashes with my impressions.<p>I have a clear date for when it was “becoming serious” for me, because I pretty much sold my entire stocks portfolio, 24th of Feb, which is almost a month before.<p>Am I the only one with that impression?
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bjt2n3904over 4 years ago
An excellently written article. I think they really hit the nail on the head here about how censorship backfires. Seeing someone lay the blame on our news organizations instead of some &quot;Russian conspiracy theory&quot; is catharsis.<p>Regrettably, I think the lesson learned here won&#x27;t be that censorship backfires. I think the lesson will be, &quot;do it better next time&quot;.<p>You see, the story still needs to disappear. But instead of making the story disappear in a very public manner, just shadowban it. Throw a few fake likes and retweets on the post to comfort the user, but display it to no one. And if anyone asks, deny everything.<p>This technique is magnificent. The Streisand Effect can&#x27;t happen if the request to remove the material isn&#x27;t made public, and the users are duped into believing the material is still there.
shadowgovtover 4 years ago
&gt; If anything Twitter’s actions had the opposite effect: it made the story spread far more widely than it would have otherwise<p>[citation needed]. Streisand Effect is real, but we&#x27;re comparing it to the relative megaphone that is a traditional media source using the accelerant of Twitter to circulate an under-researched story.<p>Blocking the story on Twitter didn&#x27;t stop its spread, but perhaps it gave truth some time to get its boots on before letting a lie ride the Twitter train in the good cars for free.
babeshover 4 years ago
There is nothing to ban and nothing to stop. There has been disinformation since the beginning of time. It was with us even in supposedly fair and balanced eras.<p>It is up to each individual to find sources of information that they trust. If they pick a biased source, then so be it.<p>Many sources of information are springing up that are proving more trustworthy than social media and traditional media.<p>Educate people to be critical thinkers so that they can pick better sources of information.
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ericcjover 4 years ago
It seems like both bad journalism and irresponsible social media spreading of misinformation are problems. We&#x27;re better served by working each problem than debating which one holds more &quot;responsibility.&quot;<p>Also the second sentence of your about page is: Recommended by The New York Times as “one of the most interesting sources of analysis on any subject”
Karunamonover 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve put together an &quot;argument map&quot; on the authenticity of the emails, mostly so I could get a handle on all the pros&#x2F;cons for this (there are <i>many</i>). This may be helpful for anyone looking for a summary:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kialo.com&#x2F;are-the-hunter-biden-emails-as-released-by-the-new-york-post-authentic-41503" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.kialo.com&#x2F;are-the-hunter-biden-emails-as-release...</a><p>This is also crowdsourced, and anyone can suggest additional arguments for any given point.
Bhilaiover 4 years ago
Haven&#x27;t senate republicans already investigated Bidens and found nothing?<p>&gt; An election-year investigation by Senate Republicans into corruption allegations against Joseph R. Biden Jr. and his son, Hunter, involving Ukraine found no evidence of improper influence or wrongdoing by the former vice president, closing out an inquiry its leaders had hoped would tarnish the Democratic presidential nominee.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;09&#x2F;23&#x2F;us&#x2F;politics&#x2F;biden-inquiry-republicans-johnson.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;09&#x2F;23&#x2F;us&#x2F;politics&#x2F;biden-inquiry...</a>
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Kyeover 4 years ago
Ben Thompson is one of those rare people who can actually do &quot;fair and balanced&quot; in a way that doesn&#x27;t treat atrocious views as a simple and innocent matter of opinion.<p>I used to be all aboard the &quot;social media is the problem&quot; train, but...<p>&gt;&gt; <i>&quot;The point of this is not to debate whether or not the email story was true, or Hunter Biden’s laptop story. Rather, it’s to establish that while social media publishes everything, from mountains of misinformation and conspiracy theories to critical information about an impending pandemic, making something matter requires more than manufacturing zero marginal cost content. The New York Times has that power by default, while Twitter and Facebook only has that power to the extent they do the opposite of what most expect from them (which is to act as a utility for the conveyance of information).&quot;</i><p>It really does seem like a long list of Very Serious News Organizations taking it seriously enough to publish hundreds of articles on these things does more harm than it floating out there in the goofball ether. No one should have taken a tabloid seriously. They&#x27;re still going to, because it&#x27;s profitable, so the solution is probably not &quot;block it&quot; or &quot;don&#x27;t write about it.&quot; The article has some good ideas.<p>edit: in particular the comparison between responses from Twitter and Facebook. Facebook slowed rather than blocked. That gave fact checkers time to warm up without dumping go juice into the conspiracy loop. I haven&#x27;t heard the same apoplectic screaming about Facebook.
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kodahover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t know what the nation&#x27;s attitude towards this is, but as someone who served on the ground in Afghanistan and had friends separated from the military (losing benefits and other problems) for bringing an ipod into a secured space, it is hard to watch Democrats say things like, &quot;Hillary Clinton would be president today if Comey didn&#x27;t send that memo.&quot;<p>What they&#x27;re saying out loud IS escaping accountability and they&#x27;re putting it in moralistic and advocacy forms. If a bunch of enlisted folks who make less than 30k a year get the equivalent (or close to) a felony for their actions, I would expect the Secretary of State to get much more.<p>Obviously it makes it hard to have this discussion in light of someone like Trump who has escaped accountability at every turn, and attempts to do so devolve into a sick game of &quot;which is worse&quot;. What I&#x27;d like to remind people of is what she did is a felony for most, and the constituents (and her) turned it into a meme to escape accountability. If we&#x27;re big enough to say Donald Trump is bad, I think we&#x27;re big enough to stop letting people trivialize this issue to their own ends too.
Miner49erover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand why Twitter chose to remove it for &quot;hacked materials&quot; rather than saying it was fake. They haven&#x27;t removed Wikileaks or the Panama Papers or all kinds of other hacked materials.<p>It makes it seem extremely political, to the point that I think they are trying to help Trump win. Which I guess makes sense, I could see how Trump being president is good for business for them.
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recroadover 4 years ago
Disagree on the criticism of Twitter. Their blocking the story allowed people to view the information with skepticism. That&#x27;s enough to dim its potentially dangerous effects.
intendedover 4 years ago
I do not understand something about these articles. They rightly point out that media is the underlying issue in America, but they focus on the NYT.<p>Secondly, the idea that &quot;more information&quot; will deal with misinformation, is often made, despite significant evidence that this is not true. Worse, it is Social media, which is being defended here, which has shown us that even showing people labelled misinformation allows it to stick.<p>What gives?<p>The article argues that this is because of the agenda setting power of the NYT, which links to a 1972 research paper. I took a dive into that realm of study, and its taken me an hour to get no substantiate answer either way.<p>As far as I can tell, Fox has far larger reach, and far larger agenda setting power for its audience. Subscriber figures are given below the line.<p>Secondly, the article lauds the ability of social media to talk fast - in particular communication between experts between Jan and March 2020. And then disapproves of Twitter&#x27;s handling of the NY Post article, arguing that<p>&gt; &gt; Twitter’s role with regards to the Hunter Biden story should have been to facilitate more information sharing, in this case to disprove the story, not to arbitrarily decide what was or was not true.<p>The first argument ignores the amplification of conspiracies that are unique for social media. Here is a study on the transmission of information between conspiracy networks, and expert networks:<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;113&#x2F;3&#x2F;554" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.pnas.org&#x2F;content&#x2F;113&#x2F;3&#x2F;554</a><p>The study says it so : &gt; These results suggest that news assimilation differs according to the categories. Science news is usually assimilated, i.e., it reaches a higher level of diffusion quickly, and a longer lifetime does not correspond to a higher level of interest. Conversely, conspiracy rumors are assimilated more slowly and show a positive relation between lifetime and size. For both science and conspiracy news, we compute the size as a function of the lifetime and confirm that differentiation in the sharing patterns is content-driven, and that for conspiracy there is a positive relation between size and lifetime<p>Which seems to be exactly how COVID misinformation behaved online. Despite the ample evidence against it.<p>That misinformation or confusion, was amplified by a subset of news media channels, with mask wearing becoming a political point.<p>If you hold the first thesis true, then shouldn&#x27;t there be a discussion on media agenda setting power? And wouldn&#x27;t that largely implicate one of the largest news networks in America?<p>And on an even broader scale - with people arguing about fixing social media (and this article rightly highlights the problem of <i>content</i> on SM, as opposed to the dynamics around content sharing), is the creation of problematic content not simply an issue of creating content that keeps people on the news channel?<p>As stated here:<p>&gt;Fox is small-town&#x2F;suburban and populist. Fox competes directly against hundreds of other cable channels and has established a specialized niche in its media ecology. Fox trades in stories about the venality of big government, liberal overreach and little-guy heroes of the heartland. A large share of Fox stories deftly push emotional buttons (lest the viewer push the buttons on his or her remote…<p>Maybe I am missing something large, but as a business model, it seems that news media + attention battles result in a bad outcome for everyone. Not just for the NYT or FOX, but for all channels.<p>In which case, maybe some form of reliable high quality news may be considered a public good, and then funded and protected from interference?<p>-----------------------------<p>Media impact, News papers vs Television:<p>The article says: &quot;research shows that “fake news” makes up a fraction of American’s media diet; &quot;, which links to this research paper: &quot;Evaluating the fake news problem at the scale of the information ecosystem&quot;<p>The abstract states that-<p>&gt; First, news consumption of any sort is heavily outweighed by other forms of media consumption, comprising at most 14.2% of Americans’ daily media diets. Second, to the extent that Americans do consume news, it is overwhelmingly from television, which accounts for roughly five times as much as news consumption as online. Third, fake news comprises only 0.15% of Americans’ daily media diet.<p>So the cable news cycle is in effect, and the Agenda setting power of news media is significant. Which brings us to viewership figures:<p>Subscriber base:<p>NYT has 4.3 mn subscribers, as of Q2 2020. This is a relatively dramatic increase, with 3.8 mn subs in Q1, and 2.98 subs in Q2 2019.<p>Fox news, for prime time, had 3.98 mn viewers in Jun 2020, with its core opinion leaders:<p>&gt;With an average total audience of 4.8 million viewers, Hannity finished in first place overall, followed by Tucker Carlson Tonight (4.8 million total viewers). Source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;markjoyella&#x2F;2020&#x2F;06&#x2F;09&#x2F;hannity-leads-cable-news-ratings-but-cnn-beats-fox-in-key-demo&#x2F;#7cac74960f67" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;markjoyella&#x2F;2020&#x2F;06&#x2F;09&#x2F;hannity-...</a><p>CNN in contrast has: 2.5 mn prime time viewers for the same period.<p>Agenda setting power is not evenly distributed, and both audiences on the America divide behave differently, and are composed differently - creating different issues both groups are interested in.
dilapover 4 years ago
Is the Biden laptop story really fabricated? As far as I know, the Biden campaign has not denied the veracity of the emails, which it seems like they would immediately do if they were fake.
cprover 4 years ago
One simple fact destroys the whole &quot;Russia disinfo&quot; nonsense: Hunter Biden&#x27;s lawyer requested the laptop&#x2F;disk drives back. If it weren&#x27;t Biden&#x27;s, why would he do that?
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flaxtonover 4 years ago
Your bias is showing. Good article overall, but you repeatedly state the Hunter Biden laptop story is false. Yet some of those in the email chain have verified authenticity of the emails. And how do you “fake” a whole Mac hard drive contents? I don’t believe it is possible.<p>Plus: * The hard drive wasn’t “stolen” - it was forfeited when the customer didn’t pick it up and pay the bill. That’s called a mechanic’s lien. Try taking your car into the shop and then never pick it up - same thing happens. * So at that point the laptop belongs to the shop. * How is it “stolen”, then? * If I had a laptop like that in my possession, I would be afraid too, and want to hand it off!<p>You’re being disingenuous :-&#x2F;
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mesozoicover 4 years ago
Hopefully FB&#x2F;Twitter finally see some accountability for their overreach and suppression.
scrbblrover 4 years ago
The claim that the &quot;story was fabricated&quot; is strange. The source of the material may be unclear and quite possibly not what was originally claimed, but that does not mean the emails are fabrications - and no one from the Biden campaign has claimed that they are.
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adamseaover 4 years ago
tl;dr IMHO this is the Hacker News version of a New York Times Op-ed article, in both the good and bad sense.<p>IMHO this article is a lot of very well-argued, rational suppositions and hypotheticals. It&#x27;s an op-ed piece masquerading as a watertight argument.<p>And it depends on a lot of &quot;what-if&#x27;s&quot;. One assumption depends on the other and in each case it comes down to &quot;this is what I think is logical&quot;.<p>Maybe he&#x27;s right, maybe he&#x27;s not, but the thinkpiece is riddled with (reasonable) assumptions when there are probably studies or reports that have been done which could have been referred to and cited for a higher degree of certainty.<p>I feel like there are plenty of political scientists, people studying the internet, or just other studies, etc, which at this point have researched in depth the 2016 election, and while citing Nate Silver is a great start, if you want to make an argument for what&#x27;s true, then that&#x27;s insufficient.<p>And plenty of people making a serious study of online censorship and freedom of the press.