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Firefox: The Jewel^WEmbarassment of Open Source

101 pointsby cautionover 4 years ago

16 comments

klelattiover 4 years ago
So Mozilla has been &#x2F; is badly run and implementing a web browser is incredibly complex and Google is too dominant.....<p>So we should abandon the web in favour of something much more limited which will never be more than a niche standard.<p>Sorry this is a complete non-sequitur. Maybe it makes a small minority of people happy but it does nothing for the vast majority of users who will have to deal (whether they know it or not) with the web issues described. I don&#x27;t have answers to these issues but giving up isn&#x27;t the answer.
gorgoilerover 4 years ago
It’s amazing that it’s 2020 and we still haven’t managed to completely fuck up either (1) the web or (2) email. Can’t blame Google for trying though.<p>Ditch Chrome. Ditch Gmail. Your vote will be a drop in the ocean, but as an internet leader, you need to at least empathize with life outside the Google Gardens.
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superkuhover 4 years ago
Everything there is correct except the response. Don&#x27;t give up on the web. Just stop using websites that implement user hostile things like web components. It sucks but not nearly as much as switching to a new protocol. The corporate web (like github&#x2F;youtube&#x2F;etc) will become inaccessible but there&#x27;s plenty of real websites out there. At least until the search engines start filtering them out for not leashing themselves to some TLS cert feudal lord.<p>On this subject, see also: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;linuxreviews.org&#x2F;Modern_Web_Standards_Are_Leaving_Niche_Web_Browsers_Behind" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;linuxreviews.org&#x2F;Modern_Web_Standards_Are_Leaving_Ni...</a> &quot;Modern Web Standards Are Leaving Niche Web Browsers Behind&quot;
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influxover 4 years ago
You forgot firing the technical CEO who had been with the company since 1995 (who btw also invented Javascript) for his personal politics. Looks like it worked out well for the company.
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jeroenhdover 4 years ago
Yes, let&#x27;s all switch to a new protocol that&#x27;s barely implemented and doesn&#x27;t allow for the things we&#x27;ve come to rely on because Mozilla made a few side projects.<p>Sorry, but that&#x27;s not how the world works. The web is here to stay and practically nobody cares about your silly little gopher clone.<p>Mozilla is the best failed project open source has to offer. Nothing comes close in terms of popularity and brand awareness. Perhaps people know of GIMP because of its funny name, but that&#x27;s about all the open source tools any layman is able to name, if any.
trefilover 4 years ago
Ironic that the author calls people fools and then proceeds to advertise Gemini as if it has any chance of succeeding outside the small group of people interested who will probably forget about the project in a few years anyway.
cytzolover 4 years ago
While I was reading this post, I felt the same way as I read the HN comments on the Mozilla layoffs two months ago: <i>misplaced blame</i>.<p>I admit I have a soft spot for Mozilla, having used Firefox since Firebird. I really want them to succeed, which colours my thoughts on this topic, and it makes me sad to hear them engaging in shady behaviour.<p>But the impression I got from this post is this: the author believes if Mozilla focuses solely on Firefox (no VPN, more engineers, Servo development full steam ahead) they would be doing better, with Firefox having more users and more money than ever before to go around. I do not believe this to be the case. The post frames &quot;Laid off 25% of its employees, mostly engineers, many of whom work on Firefox&quot; and &quot;Used their brand to enter the saturated VPN grift market&quot; and &quot;Started, and killed, a dozen projects which were not Firefox&quot; as Mozilla&#x27;s self-inflicted failures, rather than wounds sustained while engaging in battle with corporate giants. I disapprove of the increased executive pay, as well as the advertisements and add-on changes. But I cannot <i>quite</i> find them to be totally at fault for all seven listed items.<p>There&#x27;s been a lot of engineering effort recently from big companies to make the Web more featureful, and its associated infrastructure faster, than ever before. I completely agree with the author (see the linked post) when he points out that the <i>massive</i> side-effect of this is that only a big company can make a Web browser. It&#x27;s something that seems to have crept up on us, and will almost certainly take control away from individual users. It sucks.<p>So as far as I&#x27;m concened, Google has been the company complicating Web standards without talking to anyone else, developing infrastructure that&#x27;s only appropriate for massive organisations, and (more recently) exempting themselves from opting out of tracking, all while pushing their browser through previously-unheard-of advertising channels to give them the advantage. All this means Firefox has to catch up, and the money has to come from somewhere — hence the layoffs and other projects. I don&#x27;t see any other way for them to reach the future I want.<p>To repeat: it sucks.<p>While I wasn&#x27;t old enough to donate, I liked seeing the 2004 Firefox page in the New York Times. A few years ago I walked through London and saw three electronic Chrome adverts in half an hour. I think Mozilla has the deck stacked against them, severely. And I think nothing would make Google executives happier than to find _Firefox_ is the one getting called names.
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unethical_banover 4 years ago
What&#x27;s wrong with putting a strong brand on VPN? What&#x27;s wrong with giving some credibility with a chainlink fence around addons?<p>I get the complexity argument, but the rest... meh
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blatoover 4 years ago
I agree Mozilla screwed up. Especially in comparison to others such as Blender which managed to build something better than the proprietary alternatives by gathering fund through sponsors &amp; donations without ever sacrificing their values such as the GPL openness and while keeping all the focus on Blender.<p>They even obtained a place at Khronos and have a voice on the future of compute &amp; graphic standards.<p>I donate to Blender because I know that not a single cent is wasted.<p>Mozilla is the opposite, everything is wasted &amp; there is no focus.<p>I would gladly donate to a new foundation for a browser that takes the same model as Blender, Godot, etc. : start small, stay focused &amp; don&#x27;t sacrifice your core values
chappi42over 4 years ago
Frustrating that after all those nice world web saving words &quot;only&quot; egoistical overpaid upper management people remain. On the other side, these are likely the people who bring in all the money from Google. Hmm?
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dx87over 4 years ago
Couldn&#x27;t agree more, and Gemini sounds very interesting. Even if it probably won&#x27;t be a huge thing, it&#x27;s nice to know that there are people who haven&#x27;t just decided to roll over and accept the current state and direction of the web. I&#x27;m a pretty novice programmer, so I think I&#x27;ll try and implement a client to try and evaluate for myself how simple it is.
svnpennover 4 years ago
I can say without hesitation, that Firefox is the worst piece of open source software that I use. Hands down. And has been for many years. In fact it&#x27;s so bad, that I&#x27;ve been using Waterfox for a few months.<p>If any better option becomes available, I will immediately switch. I hate that they shove updates down your throat, and you have to literally set a policy to disable them. Then if you ask about it, they look at you like you are crazy. I don&#x27;t like auto updates. That&#x27;s my right. I find a version that works, I don&#x27;t want it changing every week. I want to update when <i></i>I want to<i></i>.<p>Then you have other stuff like the megabar, which Firefox implemented to be more like Chrome (I guess). Looking through about 10 issues on bugzilla about it that were all closed as WON&#x27;T FIX, then they hide any negative comments and threaten bugzilla ban from anyone that express dislike. And cherry on top, they make it impossible to disable via settings, you have to do CSS hacks.
imglorpover 4 years ago
&gt; Forget about the web, it’s a lost cause. Let’s move on.<p>Drew drops that bomb and walks off stage. Okay, so what comes after the web?
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liminalover 4 years ago
Imagine investing years of effort to invent a new programming language to build a better browser in... and then when it&#x27;s wildly successful, not using it. smh
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X6S1x6Okd1stover 4 years ago
The fact that this post doesn&#x27;t appear to even be hosted on gemini or even available as a flat text file goes to show that they aren&#x27;t taking their &quot;Lets abandon the web&quot; seriously.
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InTheArenaover 4 years ago
I blame a lot of this on firing the CEO for donating to a politician that the mob didn’t like. That tells you what the corporate priorities are.
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