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The X.Org Server Is Abandonware?

429 pointsby cautionover 4 years ago

59 comments

WesolyKubeczekover 4 years ago
What looks like &quot;typical Linux geeks being geeks&quot; with this situation:<p>1) the old, mostly working thing is being abandoned in favor of<p>2) that new thing which doesn&#x27;t work in so many cases it&#x27;s laughable, even after 11 years. How many years was it between the concept of X and a working release at Palo Alto?<p>Note that the new situation is so perfect for passing the buck from the windowing system to the compositors, and compositor folks are busy fighting feuds over which one another&#x27;s private protocols or even public ones they are not going to support.<p>Oh, and the browsers. Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland! A mere decade after!<p>I&#x27;ve heard it was so much easier to write Wayland clients, what could have happened?<p>Upd: This toxic development culture in a nutshell is exactly what this <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24165445" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24165445</a> is about. Well, we know it&#x27;s not limited to Google.
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znpyover 4 years ago
I am not necessarily against Wayland or new things in general.<p>But it bothers me when no clear upgrade path is defined (&quot;drop your stuff&quot; is not acceptable) and a half-hassed incomplete solution is proposed instead, and backwards compatibility is pretty much disregarded.<p>For what concerns my personal computing, I&#x27;ll stay on Xorg until XFCE supports Wayland. Then I&#x27;ll update.
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nsajkoover 4 years ago
If Wayland is the future, the future is grim. People often complain that Wayland is taking a long time to catch up to X11, but that actually stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window manager and each new compositor implementation reinvents the wheel many times, leaving users with less options for a desktop environment than on X11. Even worse, Wayland does not standardize on or is hostile to some essential features, meaning that users need to rely on compositor specific behavior for those features, if they are even available. E.g., an application that needs to grab the entire screen will need separate code for each compositor it supports screenshots on, or it must use a protocol outside Wayland to get the screenshot. Quoting Red Hat:<p>&gt; Furthermore, there isn’t a standard API for getting screen shots from Wayland. It’s dependent on what compositor (window manager&#x2F;shell) the user is running, and if they implemented a proprietary API to do so.<p>An xdotool (an input event automation tool, imagine wanting to inject or intercept input events) replacement is not possible on Wayland (without having separate support for each compositor, of course). These seem to be intentional design decisions (marketed as being necessary for security, but really being power-user hostile), this[0] Reddit comment puts it nicely:<p>&gt; It has been almost a decade, why does Wayland not have a protocol definition for screenshots?&quot; - answer - &quot;Because security, dude! Wayland is designed with the thought that users download random applications from the interwebz which are not trustworthy and run them. Wayland actually makes a lot of sense if you don&#x27;t think of Linux desktop distributions and desktop systems, but of smartphones. But for some reason we absolutely need this technology on the desktop, like we had not enough pain and lose ends over here without it.<p>But the lack of these features AFAIK also causes big trouble for users with special accessibility needs. Wayland is also, with its forced composition, hostile to interactive applications requiring low latency, e.g. video games.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;linux&#x2F;comments&#x2F;7lb5l7&#x2F;new_screenshot_alternative_for_wayland&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;linux&#x2F;comments&#x2F;7lb5l7&#x2F;new_screensho...</a>
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oriesdanover 4 years ago
This sounds like a bad case of Cult of Release.<p>X works perfectly for me, and there is nothing I would want it to do that it doesn&#x27;t do now. Why should it change?<p>I have many programs I wrote years ago that I don&#x27;t change and I use every day. Constant changes are not a measure of utility.<p>But again and again, you&#x27;ll find users looking at repositories and deciding that something is &quot;dead&quot; because there isn&#x27;t any recent commit, often blaming developers for not doing more free work for them. This is a toxic attitude. When we have a software that works well and solves our problems, we should celebrate it, not complain it doesn&#x27;t find new problems to solve.
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openfutureover 4 years ago
Okay so Wayland is a no go and X.org is too crufty to attract contributors.... Where is the &quot;rewrite it in rust&quot; crowd when you need it? :)<p>The X11 protocol is the surface you need to maintain but swapping the internals should be do-able. Maybe we should have some call to action or reverse-auction or something. I&#x27;d love to support a viable path forward (I feel this effort would be a bit like neovim).<p>Personally I think it could start as a Xephyr or Xnest type project (to allow you to run rootless X) and then extend it with a from-scratch protocol that slowly replaces X (starting with support for simple but useful applications and going from there).<p>But clearly I only barely know what I&#x27;m talking about. Probably the reason things are the way they are is because of how the whole OpenGL &#x2F; Vulcan etc. thing is not resolved, so any potential replacement has no foundation to build on (but this is something I don&#x27;t know anything about).
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gjvcover 4 years ago
This is a rather worrying stance to be pushing on something which is relied upon day in and day out. The phoronix author has lost credibility with me by the opinion expressed in this article.<p>With this kind of FUD, it is no wonder Linux has a hard time being accepted on the desktop. What enterprises -- and everyday developers like me -- need, is a stable desktop to run IDEs and the like. As an example, Debian with Xorg has been fantastic for me for several years for JetBrains tools and GSuite for mail and docs, which is a pretty complete setup, and in the WFH era, Zoom and Teams just work. This is what we should be striving for -- boring, predictable, reliability, not juggling with chainsaws on the bleeding edge.<p>X11 comes from a different time, but any successor must be worthy, not just have a different approach. It&#x27;s also worth remembering that much of Windows&#x27; practical longevity is due to its backwards compatibility. It&#x27;s not shiny, but it works, and that begets loyalty.
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blitblitblitover 4 years ago
So can we revive any of these also abandoned alternatives?<p>* Tiny X (Still Xorg just barebones and faster) - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;tinycorelinux&#x2F;tinyx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;tinycorelinux&#x2F;tinyx</a><p>* Xynth - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;alperakcan&#x2F;xynth" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;alperakcan&#x2F;xynth</a><p>* Nano-X &#x2F; MicroWindows - <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;microwindows.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;microwindows.org&#x2F;</a> (Seems still active? Just needs some modern GUI ports.)<p>* DirectFB (Needs modern driver support) - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20120118003245&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.directfb.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20120118003245&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.direct...</a><p>* SVGALib (Needs modern driver support) - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;akosela&#x2F;svgalib" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;akosela&#x2F;svgalib</a><p>* FBUI (Needs porting to modern kernels) - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;8l&#x2F;fbui" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;8l&#x2F;fbui</a>
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swileyover 4 years ago
Sure X.org is abandonware but there are serious problems Wayland still hasn&#x27;t solved that X has.<p>1) Wayland is really slow. I don&#x27;t know if it&#x27;s the compositing or what but it&#x27;s unusable on lighter hardware that X ran fine on.<p>2) Widget toolkits handling window decoration is <i>awful.</i> Before the large number of toolkits just meant some controls were a little different but now basic behavior changes based on how programmers decided to build an app. And if you don&#x27;t like the window decorations (say, they take up too much screen space) your choices are suck it up, or if you&#x27;re lucky and willing to spend a bunch of time reconfigure <i>every different toolkit your apps use.</i><p>3) basic stuff that worked fine on X11 doesn&#x27;t work on wayland in the name of &quot;security&quot; (screenshots are a big one, there are extensions but isn&#x27;t that the complaint about X? And if there&#x27;s a security problem with something isn&#x27;t hacking around with it because people need it a really strong indication that the idea is broken and probably making the situation worse?)
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nlayersover 4 years ago
X.org works fine, Wayland seems to be another RedHat thing.<p>I must admit I haven&#x27;t tried it, but given NetworkManager, systemd and other pearls from RedHat I&#x27;m not optimistic.
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est31over 4 years ago
Today I&#x27;ve updated to the newest Kubuntu release 20.10 and considered switching to Wayland, but then abandoned the idea when I found out that middle click copy paste is only implemented in Plasma 5.20, and I only have Plasma 5.19. I&#x27;ve seen they&#x27;ve fixed the screenshot program though (which I remember to have been an issue on older versions).<p>I&#x27;m looking forward to 21.04 for my next attempt to switch, maybe by then Firefox&#x27;s native wayland support will have progressed as well. After all what&#x27;s the point of Wayland when most of your software uses xwayland :).
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varbhatover 4 years ago
I recently came to know about Arcan which is the alternative to both Wayland and Xorg .<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;letoram&#x2F;arcan" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;letoram&#x2F;arcan</a>
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kriiveover 4 years ago
I have been using sway on Fedora for a year. It&#x27;s been really good so. It&#x27;s a smaller niche than X.org&#x27;s, but I get to do everything I need. HiDPI support is just right, just throw output eDP1-1 scale 2 in the config and you&#x27;re set.<p>Clipboard works perfectly splendid, screen-sharing works (not as perfectly splendid as clipboard does), input works, chromium&#x2F;electron is getting support for native wayland. Qt and GTK Wayland support&#x27;s quite good.<p>I have had no problems whatsoever and I invite you to try it. I have no hard-proof evidence or numbers to support my opinion, just try it.
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baybal2over 4 years ago
Better to say both X11, and Wayland are now two pieces of abandonware.
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ceronmanover 4 years ago
I have been using Fedora with Wayland daily for over 7 months now and I it works pretty well.<p>I see that there are a lot of complains about Wayland here on HN. About input, screenshots and other stuff. But I have not experienced any of that. Input works perfectly and I have no problem with screenshots or screencasts.<p>Maybe it&#x27;s that I have well supported hardware (Thinkpad X1C7) or is it something that I&#x27;m missing?
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trashburgerover 4 years ago
I think the solution is not Wayland but an X12, that is, a protocol that solves the problems of the aging X11 protocol while also not completely breaking compatibility and requiring the use of a separate Xorg server within Wayland. I wish people had gone that way instead of fully dismissing Xorg.
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ravenstineover 4 years ago
If Wayland is the future, then the future was 12 years ago.<p>Since it hasn&#x27;t really caught on or solved the same problems that X.Org accomplished a long time ago, it seems kind of pointless to continue pursuing it at this point. In my opinion, the best thing about X.Org is that it&#x27;s no longer changing. I remember installing updates for X.Org all the time and booting to a black screen on multiple occasions.
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remexreover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m kinda annoyed this is the case before the GBM&#x2F;EGLStreams argument got resolved...<p>I&#x27;ve done some programming against GBM directly (wanted an OpenGL ES application to be in a &quot;kiosk mode,&quot; didn&#x27;t want to have to install X &#x2F; a Wayland compositor + configure it), and the whole DRM+GBM stack is kinda _terrible_. Generously, one could call it barely documented; the majority of the useful and correct documentation I found was on Mesa contributors&#x27; blogs, and there were still edge cases in the API that were getting ironed out in the 5.9 kernel release.<p>I haven&#x27;t needed to write against EGLStreams, but I might give it a try to see if it&#x27;s as much of a pain or not; from the 1-page overview on the nvidia docs, I suspect not -- it sounds quite similar to the VK_KHR_swapchain extension.
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emersionover 4 years ago
This talk &quot;The Real Story Behind Wayland and X&quot; by Daniel Stone (a longtime X developer) may debunk some misconceptions in this thread:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RIctzAQOe44" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=RIctzAQOe44</a>
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tristorover 4 years ago
The fact that both X.org and Wayland are unusable and have horrible architectures for various different reasons, plus both seem to be abandonware, does not give me hope that desktop Linux will ever become a meaningful thing within the next two decades.
pjmlpover 4 years ago
Another proof that open source is only half of it, it doesn&#x27;t matter if the code is available when there isn&#x27;t anyone around to actually do something with it.
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ac130kzover 4 years ago
Nvidia doesn&#x27;t care about proper support of Wayland, many devs don&#x27;t care about proper support of Wayland, Wayland&#x27;s configuration itself is very limited, for example, forced software compositing. As much as I want to switch from X.org, I simply can&#x27;t due to these limitations
agurkover 4 years ago
One important point to note in these discussions is that X.Org is a specific implementation of the X11 protocol (the canonical implementation as it happens).<p>Wayland is the protocol and compared to X11 in this context. There are multiple implementations including:<p>1) Weston (the reference implementation)<p>2) Mutter (Gnome)<p>3) Kwin (KDE, also implements X11)<p>It&#x27;s important to draw the distinction as many&#x2F;most of the limitations people come across are in the implementation not with the protocol. People using different implementations will come across different issues too.
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art4urover 4 years ago
The last time I checked Wayland I still couldn&#x27;t share only one monitor when I screen shared in Jitsi.<p>The CPU jumped to 100 when I recorded my desktop with OBS and had a terrible delay.<p>It&#x27;s just not ready yet.
0x_rsover 4 years ago
Is there anything to admit, though? X.org has been in the so called &quot;maintenance mode&quot; for years and any development on the current main project is dead in its tracks, this is a well known fact. But no &quot;drop in&quot; replacement exists as of now, nor in the foreseeable future it seems there will be one - Wayland is an alternative, if you limit yourself to anything that is properly supported, with fundamental design differences (necessary for a more &quot;modern&quot;, efficient approach to the current technologies), but I personally can&#x27;t but think it&#x27;s dead on arrival. There was some quote from the original developers of X.org about only few people in the world being able to grasp it in its entirety and I believe it&#x27;s gotta be true.
p2t2pover 4 years ago
I recently went back to dwm (X11) from Sway (Wayland).<p>As much as I love Sway, doing all sorts of weird stuff just to share my screen in zoom is too much of a hustle.<p>I&#x27;ll probably keep using Sway on my personal device where I don&#x27;t need that feature, but my work computer will be X11 for a while.
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flurdyover 4 years ago
Wayland&#x27;s poor screen sharing support in these days of WFH is a big issue.
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dekhnover 4 years ago
X.org is one of my longest-used pieces of software. I&#x27;ve used it for 25 years (at the time it was called XFree86 and you had to calculate your own modelines to get hi res), and it has worked incredibly well for me. I&#x27;ve written software some 20 years ago that still runs just fine (some xscreensavers) and I still use it today.<p>Kind of a shame.
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coliveiraover 4 years ago
Most work on X.org happens on its extensions and drivers. Just because the main server is stable (i.e., no new features are introduced) doesn&#x27;t mean that the project is dead.
bekantanover 4 years ago
As a XMonad user, I am not considering X11 alternatives for the foreseeable future. I have zero issues with it.
roel_vover 4 years ago
Is there a summary somewhere of what&#x27;s wrong with x.org&#x2F;x11? I haven&#x27;t been keeping up.
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jbirerover 4 years ago
I have defaulted to using X.Org on my Debian GNOME installation because of awful font rendering on Wayland along with other issues such as recording.<p>This desperate push by Wayland people is putting me off of Wayland. You can&#x27;t FUD a software into being dropped in favor of yours.
ansibleover 4 years ago
Maybe when it hits 10 years without a release (like its predecessor), we can really call it abandonware:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xfree86.org&#x2F;cvs&#x2F;changes.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xfree86.org&#x2F;cvs&#x2F;changes.html</a>
arendtioover 4 years ago
If Wayland would work out the box, I would love to switch. Last time I checked (a few months ago), it didn&#x27;t work too well for me and after a week or so I returned to my working X.org setup.
forgotmypw17over 4 years ago
The beauty of the software world is that &quot;abandonware&quot; can live on for decades.<p>Let the impatient get on with beta-testing today&#x27;s developments, and I&#x27;ll get around to using them 20 years from now, when only the good stuff remains.<p>I still do most of my writing and publishing work from Windows 95 and Me, and I love it, because everything is a solved problem, and no new patches to break things are coming out.<p>Keeping it within NAT and VM is plenty secure enough for my purposes, and IE6 is plenty enough modern for me.<p>At least I can still read my config files.
stevefan1999over 4 years ago
Yes, I agree. X11 is a historic artifact that is supposed to be honored in the museum now.<p>The C&#x2F;S architecture of X11 hits the spot when terminals and thin client are the norm, that means 20-30 years ago, but today, we all have dedicated graphics display devices (GPU, monitors) even in our pocket smartphone, and the way X11 works is holding Linux desktop scene back.<p>But without X11 there you can&#x27;t show how much improvement Wayland has. We shall not forget X11.
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jasoneckertover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m all for Wayland - I agree with its direction and focus. However, Wayland will take a long time to reach the maturity that X.org has had for decades, including remote support. As a result, having both X.org and Wayland available on your disto is probably going to be the norm (and should be the norm) for a while. X.org is less &quot;abandonware&quot; and more &quot;transitionware&quot; in my opinion.
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moonchildover 4 years ago
&gt; Then again, that coming from an Intel Linux developer isn&#x27;t too surprising considering it&#x27;s been more than six years since the last xf86-video-intel DDX release<p>I don&#x27;t quite follow? modesetting was supposed to replace xf86-video-intel, so it shouldn&#x27;t be surprising if the latter isn&#x27;t getting updated.
badsectoraculaover 4 years ago
So why not just fork it?<p>If the maintainers do not want to maintain it anymore... why not just fork it? I&#x27;ve heard people saying that it is big and complex but some time ago i downloaded the code of the X server itself and it didn&#x27;t seem <i>that</i> big (i&#x27;ve worked in much bigger codebases myself).
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udioronover 4 years ago
I am still waiting for bug 865 (now 258) to be resolved. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;xorg&#x2F;xserver&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;258" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;gitlab.freedesktop.org&#x2F;xorg&#x2F;xserver&#x2F;-&#x2F;issues&#x2F;258</a>
aboutyourmomover 4 years ago
I dunno. I use Fedora, and do a clean install of Fedora every new release. That&#x27;s often. I try Wayland every time. And every time, I&#x27;m implementing several work arounds because things don&#x27;t work, and when I hit 5 work arounds (the magic number), I disable Wayland with a script I wrote, that kills it at multiple levels, it doesn&#x27;t even rear it&#x27;s ugly head in the gdm. Then it&#x27;s back to Xorg, and no more work arounds, everything works. I support several thousand servers. I only have so much time to dick around in Wayland.
peatmossover 4 years ago
Does anyone know the status of Freesync &#x2F; VRR on Gnome-Wayland?<p>Last time I investigated this, I went down a rabbit hole that made me vow to buy a Playstation.
kyberiasover 4 years ago
Microsoft should contribute their Windows compositing engine (Desktop Window Manager or Desktop Compositing Engine) to Linux and we can move one.
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m0zgover 4 years ago
I tried Wayland last year. It was nowhere near ready for prime time. Perceptibly slower, and I had video tearing when watching video in the browser. This is with bog standard Intel iGPU in a laptop a couple years old.<p>In its present state it can&#x27;t beat &quot;abandonware&quot; I&#x27;m afraid. X.org works. Wayland does not. And that&#x27;s all there is to it at the moment.
podikiover 4 years ago
What&#x27;s the tiling WM landscape like on Wayland these days? I know of Sway (i3-like), but is that the best game in town? I started with i3 but now love StumpWM (Common Lisp) and XMonad (Haskell), and can&#x27;t imagine being without something very similar.
jitendracover 4 years ago
Rather I believe, X.org server is really stable. I think its in a stage where it can be leftout without updates for years. For me its stable, works fine and as expected. I don&#x27;t mind long duration updates with stable systems.
fugufuguover 4 years ago
Curiously, noone mentioned Xenocara[1] yet?<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xenocara.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.xenocara.org&#x2F;</a>
nailerover 4 years ago
Old Linux person here - what does Keith Packard (man who restarted work on X when it was stagnant and made x.org) work on these days?
emilsedghover 4 years ago
How is this news?<p>The long term plan was to abandon X.org and move to Wayland.<p>Of course Wayland is still not there, but X.org is mature and stable enough to keep users happy for the time being, until the whole ecosystem catches up with Wayland.<p>As a matter of fact, abandoning X.org (except for security patches) would be a good strategy to incentivize the ecosystem not to build on top of it anymore.<p>Maybe X.org should do what request.js and momen.js did and call it done at some point.
xaduhaover 4 years ago
Linux is nice, but as soon as new LTSC is out I will probably switch to it to use WSL2.
DonHopkinsover 4 years ago
Implement the window system in the web browser and be done with it. Sheez.
notoranditover 4 years ago
Nope. Look at autoconf. Last release came in 2012. Next is due now.
tpoacherover 4 years ago
&#x27;[...] but a prominent Intel open-source developer has conceded that the X.Org Server is pretty much &quot;abandonware&quot; with Wayland being the future.&#x27;<p>So? A &quot;prominent US politician&quot; recently conceded that global warming is a hoax by the Chinese, with coal being the future. Should I be doubling over myself to dismantle my solar panels?<p>Very weasel-wordy article if you ask me. X11 is fine.
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bicolaoover 4 years ago
Some IRC discussion from airlied<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lobste.rs&#x2F;s&#x2F;vqv6nu&#x2F;it_s_time_admit_it_x_org_server_is#c_1pqf44" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lobste.rs&#x2F;s&#x2F;vqv6nu&#x2F;it_s_time_admit_it_x_org_server_i...</a>
epxover 4 years ago
So x.org is abandoned, Wayland does not work&#x2F;is not mature, Linux for desktop is dead? Adopting the upper-half of Android AOSP UI would be the escape hatch?
AzzieElbabover 4 years ago
X11 has to go because of flickering and the way it renders text. It is bad for your eyes
verroqover 4 years ago
Someone explain why the push to wayland when there is no discernable performance increase [0] and lots of broken applications.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.phoronix.com&#x2F;scan.php?page=news_item&amp;px=GNOME-Xorg-Wayland-AMD-Renoir" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.phoronix.com&#x2F;scan.php?page=news_item&amp;px=GNOME-Xo...</a>
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mamonover 4 years ago
The best Linux desktop environment is Windows 10 (with WSL2) That&#x27;s why some journalists have already called 2020 &quot;Year of Linux On Desktop&quot;.<p>Let&#x27;s be honest, Linux has a good (but not great) kernel, good-to-great apps on server side, and the crappy UI side (Wayland, windows managers, desktop environments)<p>The best way to interact with Linux is throught API or commandline. Leave UI stuff for more competent folks (Microsoft or Apple)
jojobasover 4 years ago
X.org is not abandonware, it is actively supported.<p>The fact that it&#x27;s not updated with Awesome New Features every month, well, neither is Bash or Postfix.<p>Some things should just work.
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naveen99over 4 years ago
I wonder why we don’t see anything out of China for x.org ? They want to be self reliant in hardware, why not start with software ? Then I wonder if the us government will come around and ban open-source like they want to ban encryption in the name of protecting the economy... not that I want the last thing to happen of course.