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On Abandoning the X Server

400 pointsby cheshire_catover 4 years ago

32 comments

pmoriartyover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s a couple of years old, but this post on <i>&quot;Why I&#x27;m not going to switch to Wayland yet.&quot;</i>[1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland:<p><i>&quot;at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don&#x27;t work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors.</i><p><i>Examples (in order of importance to me):</i><p><pre><code> * Programmatic output configuration (xrandr, arandr, etc.) * CLI clipboard access (xsel, xclip) * Third party app launcher&#x2F;window switcher (rofi, dmenu, albert, docky). * Clipboard managers (parcellite, klipper, Gpaste, clipman, etc.) * Third party screen shot&#x2F;capture&#x2F;share (shutter, OBS, ffmpeg, import, peek, scrot, VNC, etc.) * Color picker (gpick, gcolor3, kcolorchooser) * xdotool </code></pre> Until Wayland has all these (and more) and they are as stable and feature-rich as the existing apps on X, I will not willingly switch to Wayland.<p>[1] - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;comments&#x2F;85q78y&#x2F;why_im_not_going_to_switch_to_wayland_yet&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;old.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;wayland&#x2F;comments&#x2F;85q78y&#x2F;why_im_not_...</a>
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haplessover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s worth noting this is not the first time that X has become abandonware.<p>It&#x27;s not even the second time.<p>This is the <i>third</i> time X development has been abandoned. And yet, millions of us use X11 every day.<p>Don&#x27;t hold your breath for Wayland to replace X11.
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hacknatover 4 years ago
When the last discussion of X being abandon-ware came up one of the things I wanted to say, being the creator of a highly used open source project myself, is that people are ultimately responsible for software. I was going to speculate that the maintainer of X might be burnt out and that none of us have any right to his free labour, and that the people whining should probably step up or shut up.<p>Open source software is also free (as in beer) software.<p>There&#x27;s a word for people who complain about free things.
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jrm4over 4 years ago
As a part outsider&#x2F;part insider (long time Linux user, not much of a programmer) let me see if I can try to summarize my frustration with this transition process -- it simply seems to be a <i>much different</i> methodology than the one that got Linux to where it is.<p>As I understand it, Linus&#x27; number one deal is &quot;don&#x27;t break backward compatibility.&quot; The Unix Way is &quot;Write programs that talk to one another...&quot; etc. This is the foundation that I believe put Linux where it is today, this is why I love it and use it so much.<p>Which is why I&#x27;m dismayed to see so much comfort with what feels in line with a proprietary top-down control attitude, the thing that Microsoft and Apple et al do, i.e. &quot;This thing is going to change, so get over it.&quot;<p>I appreciate that there is work being done. I&#x27;m willing to trust that there is a point to Wayland (I literally don&#x27;t get it at this stage; trying to use it presently creates FAR more problems than it solves) -- but it seems like it should be axiomatic that the project works harder to preserve the space than it appears to now.
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arexxbifsover 4 years ago
Funny how Wayland is trying to replace one of the few crucial parts of the *nix ecosystem that _isn&#x27;t_ fragmented. Everyone&#x27;s got their own take on everything from basic stuff like kernels, shells, userland, and directory structures to bigger stuff like desktop environments.<p>Except X. X is X and everybody agrees that X is X. It&#x27;s not perfect, but it&#x27;s there, and it mostly just works, and all the programs are written for it. Instead of trying to fix the one thing we&#x27;ve all managed to agree upon, we&#x27;re going to replace it with something completely different.<p>I&#x27;m not sure this is a good idea.
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jll29over 4 years ago
The X Window System (X11 for short) looks and feels the same on my Intel Ubuntu Linux laptop and on my HP 9000 UNIX workstation running HP-UX 11 on PA-RISC.<p>X11 is ancient (1987), but it&#x27;s brilliant. Its designers even anticipated having 16 mouse buttons, and (more importantly) opening a window on a remote system.<p>The system is flexible, programmable, customizable; I&#x27;ve got all development manual volumes here on my shelf.<p>While I&#x27;m open and sympathetic to any new ideas and improved software systems, including novel windowing concepts, personally, I don&#x27;t have any unmet window manager needs at present. Any new system shouldn&#x27;t just replicate a subset of X11, they should go beyond the state of the art to justify the time investment.
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smabieover 4 years ago
So, I need nvidia proprietary drivers, use a window manager that doesn&#x27;t support wayland (cwm), do I have any options besides using Xorg? I think the answer is no, but I&#x27;m not super well versed in these things. Xorg seems to work just great for me, not sure what all the fuss is about. But then again, I&#x27;m not an expert, so I&#x27;m happy to adopt any other solution, assuming I can get fast graphics&#x2F;cuda at 144hz and use my favorite window manager, cwm.
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cmrdporcupineover 4 years ago
My problem with switching from X to Wayland is not that Wayland doesn&#x27;t do enough of the things that X does. It&#x27;s that at it&#x27;s not different enough. I&#x27;ve been waiting for a really good Linux desktop experience and windowing system since I first started using Linux in 1991. I&#x27;ve always found X hacky and awkward in the entire almost-30 years I&#x27;ve been using it -- it&#x27;s definitely improved from the era of manual modeline and input device configuration, but it&#x27;s still ... yuck. Especially things like clipboard. But I don&#x27;t feel like Wayland is the thing that&#x27;s going to move us towards any world of consistency and usability. It&#x27;s just another way for very heterogeneous and mismatched applications to draw arbitrary stuff on the screen.
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numpad0over 4 years ago
I wonder what this “only what is current may exist” culture is, whether it’s manifestation of survival of the fittest, a baby step towards the machine uprising of 2037; whether it acknowledges a notion, that an environment, where what without a change may sustain, cannot host a life.
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lallysinghover 4 years ago
&gt; I don&#x27;t have any real desire to get there while still pretending that the xfree86 hardware-backed server code is a real thing<p>What does he mean by that? That there isn&#x27;t really a hardware-accelerated Xorg server?<p>If that&#x27;s true, is the post indicating that Adam sees the Xorg code as an interface layer to some other rendering system that had hardware acceleration?<p>Is that XWayland? I&#x27;m guessing at all this.
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acomjeanover 4 years ago
As a user of desktop linux (PopOS), I wonder what is going on here and how this effects me.<p>I know enough about X, but. What the heck is wayland?<p>wikipedia says (display server using the Wayland protocol is called a Wayland compositor, because it additionally performs the task of a compositing window manager.) Whats the compositor doing? Does this effect local linux or only trying to run windows remotely? Xwayland?<p>I&#x27;ve used X (Xwindows) to run windowing apps remotely (ssh -X) occasionally. It works, excepting that now that I WFH it doesn&#x27;t.<p>Linux moves very slowly, but shouldn&#x27;t replacing X be a great thing?
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https443over 4 years ago
For someone not familiar with this world, what is X Server and xfree86? What problem does it solve?
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DonHopkinsover 4 years ago
The whole window system situation on Unix is and has always been like a Rubik&#x27;s Cube that somebody switched the stickers on so it&#x27;s impossible to solve.
busterarmover 4 years ago
How well do fcitx &amp; ibus work in Wayland yet? I need good l10n support.<p>Who is using Wayland without X in Asia right now and isn&#x27;t using English?
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rhabarbaover 4 years ago
I love how these blog entries keep ignoring the non-Linux world.
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anticristiover 4 years ago
GNOME on Wayland allows me to set my FullHD laptop screen at 100% and my 4K display at 200%. I&#x27;m sold. :D
ineedasernameover 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve never used Wayland. Are there inherent advantages that make it preferable, even if the community could successfully revive X? (And assuming Wayland&#x27;s deficiencies were addressed-- speed as an example, from other comments I&#x27;ve seen)
entropy1111over 4 years ago
Where can I find a list of protocols and standards, and what compositors have implemented them? I don&#x27;t want to dig between issues and thousands of repos or docs. I imagine commercial software have even less patience, maybe that&#x27;s why Zoom used the proprietary GNOME thing instead of the open standard.<p>Wayland works really well, I think people who can&#x27;t use it yet because of features they miss should just use x.org and stop complaining and harassing open source developers. I&#x27;m using sway and wayfire but I have no clue how they work behind the scenes or wayland itself.
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jandreseover 4 years ago
Reading this post, it strikes me that there could have been standalone monitors with an Ethernet port that had just enough compute power to run an X server.
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djhaskin987over 4 years ago
I&#x27;d love to hear more about Xwayland, a project the OP talks about. It sounds like a way to run X on wayland, or maybe the other way around. It sounds like a really nice way to bridge the gap while wayland is still working out some of its kinks and providing backwards compatibility for X apps.
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victor9000over 4 years ago
X Server made my Dell XPS 13 suffer from horizontal tearing. Each Ubuntu release came with its own set of tricks to circumvent the issue until the release of Ubuntu 20.04, when nothing seemed to work. Switched to Wayland and the issue went away without doing anything at all. Never looked back.
speederover 4 years ago
Seemly people want badly to abandon X Server (not the protocol, I mean the server).<p>Assuming they do.<p>Is there any software that can replace the server part of it?<p>For example in my current work I SSH -X to another machine, and use X apps installed on that machine, any other software can do that?
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hsbauauvhabzbover 4 years ago
On two occasions I’ve heavily modified WM source (originally ratpoison, now write). Without caring about graphical extensions will I be able to hack similarly under Wayland?
Santosh83over 4 years ago
This ship has sailed for better or worse. The people who take these decisions don&#x27;t hang out in forums to listen to every complaint and gripe. They work for the main corporations and foundations steering Linux development and they have decided that Wayland is the future, even if the transition is going to be ugly. Linux is no longer the &quot;community&quot; OS that it once was. In a way it has gone more mainstream than even MacOS or Windows, and that means it will cater to the larger market forces than the &quot;community&#x27;s&quot; wants.
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ameliusover 4 years ago
I have to disable wayland in gdm3 (on ubuntu), otherwise I end up in a login loop ...
djsumdogover 4 years ago
Have any of the BSD (FreeBSD&#x2F;OpenBSD&#x2F;NetBSD) started the transition to Wayland yet? X is more than just Linux? There are a lot of other operating systems out there and many have their own X11 forks they maintain.
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knownover 4 years ago
X consumes 900 MB and Wayland consumer 1 GB RAM in my laptop
nsajkoover 4 years ago
&gt; we can finally abandon xfree86<p>The trouble here for those who use Unix-likes as graphical programming environments is that Wayland is the intended replacement for Xorg, and the quoted statement comes from the perspective of making products for non-technical end-users instead of something power-users (like many of us here) can use efficiently. I will not claim here that it is theoretically impossible for efficient graphical programming environments to be based on a Wayland compositor, but the facts are firstly that currently Wayland based systems are a downgrade compared to Xorg (I think the Wlroots&#x2F;Sway is currently the only compositor that tries to cater to power users, and the issue with Wayland is also that support from the compositor is necessary and difficult for almost any feature), and secondly that the Wayland design is hostile to features that power users are already accustomed to from X Windows. More broadly, Wayland is actually hostile to features like screenshots that <i>all</i> users of other operating systems are accustomed to, meaning that Wayland is actually causing an unnecessarily ugly image of Linux systems among users of other systems. Causally related to the above is the fact that the Wayland design necessitates great duplication of effort for both compositor implementations and applications that want to be able to use more than one incompatible compositor.<p>Three days ago there was a discussion here on basically the same topic, and because my comment there[1] is completely relevant, I&#x27;m going to mostly just copy it here:<p>A too common complaint about Wayland (or Wayland compositors, more specifically) is that it is taking a long time to catch up to X11. The elephant in the room is that this situation stems from a deeper issue: Wayland has a horrible design, for an X11 replacement, a design that leads to massive fragmentation issues across the graphical part of the Linux ecosystem. Implementing a Wayland compositor requires much more effort than implementing an X11 window manager and each new compositor implementation reinvents the wheel many times, leaving users with less options for a desktop environment than on X11. Even worse, Wayland does not standardize on or is hostile to some essential features, meaning that users need to rely on compositor specific behavior for those features, if they are even available. E.g., an application that needs to grab the entire screen will need separate code for each compositor it supports screenshots on, or it must use a protocol outside Wayland to get the screenshot. Quoting Red Hat: &gt; Furthermore, there isn’t a standard API for getting screen shots from Wayland. It’s dependent on what compositor (window manager&#x2F;shell) the user is running, and if they implemented a proprietary API to do so.<p>An xdotool (an input event automation tool, imagine wanting to inject or intercept input events) replacement is not possible on Wayland (without having separate support for each compositor, of course). These seem to be intentional design decisions (marketed as being necessary for security, but really being power-user hostile), this[0] Reddit comment puts it nicely:<p>&gt; It has been almost a decade, why does Wayland not have a protocol definition for screenshots?&quot; - answer - &quot;Because security, dude! Wayland is designed with the thought that users download random applications from the interwebz which are not trustworthy and run them. Wayland actually makes a lot of sense if you don&#x27;t think of Linux desktop distributions and desktop systems, but of smartphones. But for some reason we absolutely need this technology on the desktop, like we had not enough pain and lose ends over here without it.<p>But the lack of these features AFAIK also causes big trouble for users with special accessibility needs. Wayland is also, with its forced composition, hostile to interactive applications requiring low latency, e.g. video games.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;linux&#x2F;comments&#x2F;7lb5l7&#x2F;new_screenshot_alternative_for_wayland&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reddit.com&#x2F;r&#x2F;linux&#x2F;comments&#x2F;7lb5l7&#x2F;new_screensho...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24886074" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24886074</a>
nightflyover 4 years ago
If Canonical hadn&#x27;t wasted a few years developing and trying to push Mir I feel like Wayland could be a lot further along now than it is.
adobecs3over 4 years ago
This is what happens when the losing player is humble enough to say GG because this was just a game. Nice RE at the end there.<p>That said- Wayland might be the only future but I&#x27;m not convinced it is the present. It still misses a specified way to handle shortcut keys and screenshots.
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Ericson2314over 4 years ago
I like the sentiment....but I don&#x27;t know a single person who actually uses Wayland. This concerns me.
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sprashover 4 years ago
Good! Xorg needs to become a community project again. The current maintainers are almost without exception full time paid employees and act solely in the interest of their employers and NOT in the interest of the FOSS community. Their employers have decided to sabotage the ecosystem by breaking established community standards. Maintaining backwards compatibility is the most important thing to keep any ecosystem alive. This means the community should abandon their software (e.g. Wayland) and put people in charge of X11 that start acting in their interest.
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