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What is a System-on-Chip (SoC), and why do we care if they are open source?

275 pointsby pictureover 4 years ago

14 comments

kabdibover 4 years ago
More eyes on a design would help.<p>Proprietary SOCs suck when you run into a bug in system bring-up (and if you are going off the beaten track even a little, you will), and you have a vendor that:<p>- Doesn&#x27;t believe you. In fact, is quite vocal about not believing you.<p>- Takes your hard-won repro code (with &quot;a possible workaround, what do you think?&quot;) and is silent for months;<p>- Finally publishes a TR about that bug, along with your very own workaround code, verbatim and unattributed and you never even got an email acknowledging the issue.<p>... and after nearly a year of chasing the stupid thing down, as a last resort grants you a five minute phone audience with the chip designer. Sixty seconds into the problem description he says, &quot;Oh, I know what&#x27;s going on...&quot; and proceeds to fix <i>everything</i> by telling you what parts of the documentation are lies. Your workaround turns out to be how you have to do it. You feel a little ill.<p>An open source SOC would not necessarily be better understood by more people, but it probably couldn&#x27;t be worse.
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ohaziover 4 years ago
Oh hey, I was just playing with this... it&#x27;s really cool!<p>There&#x27;s a &quot;Linux on LiteX-VexRiscv&quot; design [1] that adds a DDR controller and MMU to the shared bus as well as a handful of other pieces that allow you to boot a Linux kernel image, mount a filesystem, and get a shell prompt over a serial terminal or ssh.<p>You can then use familiar interfaces to talk to whatever peripherals you decided to include, e.g.:<p><pre><code> $ echo 1 &gt; &#x2F;sys&#x2F;class&#x2F;gpio&#x2F;gpio508&#x2F;value $ echo 50 &gt; &#x2F;sys&#x2F;class&#x2F;pwm&#x2F;pwmchip0&#x2F;duty_cycle </code></pre> I got it to run on Greg Davill&#x27;s [2] Orange Crab FPGA board [3] last night, which was actually pretty easy, as it&#x27;s one of the supported boards. It was <i>surprisingly</i> usable, even with the soft processor only running at 64 MHz. This was also the first time I used the open source synthesis &#x2F; place-and-route tools to do anything more complicated than an adder, and they were <i>fast</i> and worked flawlessly.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;litex-hub&#x2F;linux-on-litex-vexriscv" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;litex-hub&#x2F;linux-on-litex-vexriscv</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;gregdavill" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;gregdavill</a> - He posts a lot of really cool macro and microscope photos of electronics assembly<p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gregdavill&#x2F;OrangeCrab" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;gregdavill&#x2F;OrangeCrab</a>
JBiserkovover 4 years ago
This is about the Precursor [0] to Betrusted [1].<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.crowdsupply.com&#x2F;sutajio-kosagi&#x2F;precursor" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.crowdsupply.com&#x2F;sutajio-kosagi&#x2F;precursor</a><p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;betrusted.io&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;betrusted.io&#x2F;</a>
Lind5over 4 years ago
These terms tend to invite a lot of confusion. First of all, open source is not the same as free. In fact, the best open source hardware is a proprietary implementation of code that is maintained by the open-source community, and unless you have endless time and resources, you probably don&#x27;t want to do this yourself. In chips, an open-source implementation typically involves a &quot;free&quot; instruction set architecture, and the hot one today is RISC-V. Others include MIPS and POWER, which are open-source, but you can&#x27;t play with the source code like you can with RISC-V.<p>An SoC is a whole-different beast, because it contains all of the other things needed to create a system, including on-chip memory, I&#x2F;O, interconnects, possibly some analog components, and it all has to work together. The more complex ones have multiple power domains, circuits that turn off when others turn on, and there needs to be embedded software in some of these devices. Depending upon what process node it was developed at, it also may require multiple voltages and a complex power delivery network. And if you really want to push the performance, you probably want to put this into a complex package, possibly including other chips. Having configurability in there in the form of an FPGA or some programmable logic is an interesting option, which is what Intel has done and presumably what AMD will do with its proposed acquisition of Xilinx. That helps keep it tuned to changes in algorithms for AI and machine learning without having to completely re-do the design.<p>The challenge will be finding design tools to make sure you haven&#x27;t messed up anywhere. The free tools tend to be difficult to use and generally ineffective. The commercial tools are much better, but they&#x27;re also expensive. And the more complicated the design, the more you&#x27;ll probably need to buy some expensive hardware or lease it from the cloud. Programmability won&#x27;t solve any of this. It will simply help avoid obsolescence, or at least slow it down.<p>There&#x27;s a good article on open source here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;semiengineering.com&#x2F;riding-the-risc-v-wave&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;semiengineering.com&#x2F;riding-the-risc-v-wave&#x2F;</a>, with more links at the bottom if you need more.
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mulmenover 4 years ago
This open source chip is an FPGA with all the cost and speed limitations that carries. What would it take to create a truly open-source chip? I assume a chip fab can be contracted to build them given a workable design. Is this conceivable for a general purpose CPU? Will these FPGA approaches get us closer to such a goal?
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petraover 4 years ago
Let&#x27;s compare this to QubesOS: Which adversary can hack QubesOS while not being able to hack this ?
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kumarskiover 4 years ago
efabless.com<p>Open source chips are not common place right now, but maybe in like 10-15 years.<p>Love bunniestudios posts.
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helsinkiandrewover 4 years ago
&gt; Of course, this flexibility comes at a cost: an FPGA is perhaps 50x more expensive than a feature-equivalent SoC and about 5-10x slower in absolute MHz<p>If an FPGA SoC of the same power is 250-500x more expensive - how many of the issues of proprietary SoC&#x27;s become tolerable?<p>Wouldn&#x27;t using a non SoC architecture - Processor + support chips become a better solution?
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billforsternzover 4 years ago
So is the plural systems on a chip (I hope so), or system on a chips (surely not)? And is hyphenation a valid get out of jail free card for people who for some reason prefer the latter? (so system-on-a-chips, still seems a monstrosity to me). Basically I want John Siracusa to be wrong about at least one thing like everybody else :)
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0xquadover 4 years ago
Given the features and cost, what are the likely class of suitable applications for Precursor? It looks like the guts of a typical (consumer) router e.g., or a set-top device, but maybe not a commodity IOT thing (overkill and cost) and certainly not an iPad (performance, for one).
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ncmncmover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand what Rust has to do with the chip circuitry, beyond stuff that could be compiled to RISC-V code to run on the emulator. But it seems to have more stuff involved.<p>Also, I don&#x27;t understand what about AES can be taking up so many LUTs.<p>Clue, please?
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gfxgirlover 4 years ago
Is it possible to verify the chip&#x27;s content is what it says it is? With software we can run some kind of signature generator and verify the signature of the bits match but that seems like it would be impossible with hardware?
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gentleman11over 4 years ago
Librem is expensive and has less features than an android, but a lot of that cost went into more open hardware. It’s not cheap to do that
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LockAndLolover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t know if the author of the website is here, but please reconsider redesigning it. This is what it looks like on a 1900x1200 screen: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;Ivyse91.png" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;i.imgur.com&#x2F;Ivyse91.png</a><p>The use of white space really is too liberal.<p>Luckily Firefox has reader view, but that shouldn&#x27;t be necessary to read an article.
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