My Experience as a Female CS Major

It wasn't that long ago that women made up close to 0% of graduates in law and medicine. There were lots of scientific-sounding essentialist arguments made about gender to explain that. Nowadays close to 50% of graduates in medicine and law are women. Remember than when you hear people spouting off about why women aren't suited to programming.<p><a href="http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0300.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2011/tables/11s0300.p...</a>

<i>Something that frustrates me about the field of computer science is that there are a lot of jerks who think that just because they've "mastered" some programming language or know some obscure unix commands, they are gods and you are nothing.</i><p>I don't think this is at all unique to CS, or even to technical fields: it's the Dunning-Kruger Effect all over again.<p>Regarding women in CS, it would go a long way in helping to simply <i>treat them as people</i>. As an IRC op, I find it sickening how often, particularly in online programming communities, people hear the word "female" and start acting like utter idiots. This results in both unwanted negative and positive attention: but furthermore, continually reinforces the idea that a female is some sort of odd, unusual creature deserving of special study. This doesn't merely bother the victims -- it also helps convince <i>them</i> that they're the odd one out, and that they don't belong.<p>This doesn't have to be blatant sexism -- it can simply be comments like "oh, you're a girl?!" when someone uses a female pronoun. I've seen this happen dozens times in a single channel <i>in response to a single person</i> over the course of a few months.<p>Some of you may be thinking that this is just a problem for 4chan and Reddit. But the interesting thing that I've noticed is that the incidence of this problem doesn't seem to be reduced much with more professional communities, or in more mature environments.<p>Rather, the <i>only</i> statistic that seems to be consistently correlated with these kinds of problems is the perceived male/female ratio in a community. The instance the perception gets created that "this community is almost entirely male", problems begin to occur. This seems to be a constant everywhere from programming communities to writing communities to roleplaying communities to fandoms.<p>If you're male, you've probably been responsible for some of this at some point. Maybe it was just one comment. I mean, what harm could one comment do, right? But a hundred people making "just one comment" stops being a joke quickly -- and instead makes half of the smart aspiring programmers out there feel unwelcome. This is of course self-reinforcing: by making women feel unwelcome, the "almost entirely male" perception is perpetuated.<p>(An interesting question might be why the reverse problem rarely exists in communities perceived to be almost entirely female.)

There's some good general observations in here. I remember tutoring a student who was really good (I'm sure that by now he's a better programmer than me) but who felt inadequate (enough so to get a tutor) because other people in the class were bragging about how they did certain tasks in just a few minutes while in reality spent hours on it... or just turned in crap. And it was that same kind of macho sentiment that the author talks about... except it intimidates a lot of guys as well.<p>Also, most of the people who are jerks about it, don't know just how much they don't know (because that one obscure Linux command is all they need to master to be CS gods, right) and they turn into that guy you fire because his code has no sense of industry best practices (seriously, why unit test like a mere mortal if you're a CS god who knows obscure Linux commands.... FIRED).<p>So take heart. You're probably a better programmer than you give yourself credit for (whether you're a guy or a girl), because everybody else is a worse programmer than they tell others they are.

"One of the challenges for me while I was at Google was to speak up when I didn't understand something, as I often assumed it was common technical knowledge and that people would pass judgment."<p>Of course, it is generally good advice in most workplaces to speak up and ask questions to be sure what the colleagues are talking about. But, yes, male or female, many new employees lose out on learning opportunities by not asking questions when they know they don't understand, and perhaps even more from not asking questions when they suppose they do understand. What I've learned by becoming a lot older than the author of the interesting submitted blog post is that I still have plenty to learn, and sometimes I can make a good impression by being willing to ask a possibly dumb question[1] to be sure I know what my colleagues have in mind.<p>[1] The best teacher I ever had was a teacher who said, of course, "The only dumb question is the question you don't ask," and he really meant it. He tried his utmost to make sure any student who asked him a question got a thoughtful response that implicitly acknowledged that it's important for learners to check and recheck their understanding.

I'm pretty sure this will get downvoted and deleted in 2 seconds, but i'm honest to god not trying to troll, just state some of my personal experiences.<p>I'm currently working at a pretty small company with women coworkers, and most of them are at least as smart as some of the men i've worked with and one is way smarter than most people i've met. Having said that, in my experience both in college and at work (been working about 6 years now), on average the girls were less capable and smart at CS and programming. From my experience it seemed A LOT like they just didn't commit at nearly the same level as the guys. For most men who are programmers it's almost a way of life - I have never met a woman for whom the same could be said. The one woman I know who is vastly better at her job than anyone I've met, even she is simply a extremely dedicated professional for whom it is just a job, not truly a passion.<p>I'm not saying this means guys get the right to be assholes, I'm just saying I don't think this is entirely because there are so few girls or because of stereotypes, i think there is more to it than that, there is a statistically discernible difference in skill - from my limited personal experience. Please proceed with the downvote into oblivion :).

There is a masochist bent to many CS programs, where students are basically told that they need to "sink or swim", then get pushed into the water. I saw more than a few people just hit a wall and give up.<p>I think that in general, women tend to thrive in different circumstances than men. A big part of the way that CS is presented to students is that it is a "lone wolf" endeavor, and students are expected to just figure stuff out. That appeals to the hardcore, anti-social nerds and feeds the male ego. It's not appealing to women or most men.<p>The IT team that I run now is probably 60% female. They rock, and only one of them has a degree in CS. It's a real shame that in a field where top companies claim to be short on talent, keyword filtering is virtually eliminating half of the potential workforce.

This is only part of the story. As far as I can see it, the biggest difference between men and women is that there are less women who don't give a shit about 'social acceptance'.<p>The OP's post is mostly about schools, social issues, etc...<p>Since I have seen a computer as a 12 year old guy, I did not give a shit about other people's opinion on my programming skills, I did not learn programming in school, etc... I just needed to program. My mind did not rest until I did not give it a programming poblem to solve. When I created a little game, I felt that I created a new world from scratch.<p>The real question is why this kind of enthusiasm and this kind of social-proof ignorance is more rare (although existing) amongst women.

To save everyone a lot of time, here's the HN post of this article from last year:<p><a href="http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110756" rel="nofollow">http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110756</a>

I'm going to get down voted for this but the main reason CS doesn't attract women is that it is not a regulated profession. Competition is high and you have to stay on top of your game regardless of your diploma. It's the same reason there are few women who are entrepreneurs.<p>Women tend to be more attracted to stable jobs with a well defined path to success such as medicine or teaching.

The thing that I find most odd about this article is that she says someone told her "this isn't a 200-level class, you know".<p>I never talked to anyone in my CS classes. Never.<p>It's weird to me to hear about CS classes where questions were asked in class or where you interacted with your peers for anything.

A few months ago Dr. Christine Alvarado gave a GREAT talk at Google about how the CS profs at Harvey Mudd restructured their introductory CS course to help attract women. I'm not usually that interested in this issue, but found the talk really interesting and engaging. Highly recommended.<p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/eduatgoogle#p/a/u/1/HF_Gkxqf158" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/eduatgoogle#p/a/u/1/HF_Gkxqf158</a>

From observing my own (non USA) CS class, some 20 years ago, (where we had about 30% female), and having visited the campus on occasion since then, I think I see the following in action.<p>Firstly - there aren't that many courses at college that start with students who are well versed in their chosen area of study. The school of medicine for example doesn't take in practicing doctors - architecture doesn't take practicing architects and so on.<p>But often a large portion of a computer science class are already proficient programmers, and a sizable number have probably already made money programming in one form or another. In other words they choose this major not because they want to learn, but because they're confident they can _already_ do the work.[ Aside: there is another group exactly like this - the sportsmen - which makes the jocks and the nerds pretty much the same thing - but that's a post for another day.]<p>So I hypothesize there's a direct correlation between the numbers of those doing programming at school (formally or informally), and those doing it at college level. During school years male and female behaviour is vastly different (programming is very often an outlet for "loners" with poor social skills - which let's be honest are mostly guys.)<p>Here's the thing though. I grew up in a non-US school where the labeling of people was not encouraged. Also it was easier to foster your own self-identity without belittling the identity of others. Sure we had beefy physical types, and scrawny nerdy types, but at the same time the school went out of its way to validate each person at whatever they did well. Excellence, of any sort, was recognized. We had sporty girls, and nerdy girls and super-bright girls, and (to be fair) some dumb girls - but "the computer club" wasn't some sort of social dead-end.<p>So to college - where the class was split about half-half of those that had programmed before and those that hadn't. And as I say, about 30% female. So the ones-that-could would spend a lot of time teaching and helping the ones that couldn't. If some of those I helped happened to be female, well that wasn't my fault was it? And if some of the ones doing the helping were bright diligent girls, who helped me apply my somewhat erratic studying habits to actually passing exams - well, it's a win-win.<p>Of course we had some jerks - and sad to say the raw "jerk quotient" seems to be climbing. But they're jerks to everyone really, and frankly you'll encounter lots of jerks, from both sexes, all the way through life.<p>My advice to ladies doing CS - find the nice, smart, guys in the class. They're there. Sure they may need some social help - but you can do that. And I bet if you make a little effort you'll find they're _really_ keen for your friendship.<p>To the guys (and I'm assuming that's most of you reading this post) apply just a small amount of that alleged brain-power you have to consider how you would feel in a class that's 90% female. Now take just a few moments to go be nice to someone. Invite them into your study group. Offer some assistance when they're struggling. Just be _friendly_. They may not yet know the difference between a++ and ++a, but they will. In the meantime you'd be amazed at what they can do for you.<p>It's a smart man who thinks just a few years ahead of everyone else.

Part of the problem as I see it is that male dominance in CS extends all the way to the top. At a particular university I have in mind (but will not name for legal reasons) nearly all of the lecturers were male. Most women who were staff in the department were secretarial (in fact, all of the administration staff were female), and the male staff were every bit as bad, if not worse, than your stereotypical male IRC user. We're talking about ignorance and disrespect running so deep that the way some girls (undergrad and postgrad) have been treated by staff is tantamount to sexual harassment, so I find it... amusing when we're talking about the behaviour of students, or social fixes, when to me it feels like the whole damn system is stuck in the 50s.

"He once told me that even though the females are fairly quiet, and the boys in the class showed off a lot, when it came down to projects and exams, the female average was often higher."<p>I think that this is actually one of the reasons that so few girls are in Computer Science. My girlfriend is a CS major and she very often feels inadequate compared to all of the other super exceptional girls in the program. It isn't because she's inadequate either. Her grades are fine. The issue comes when every one of the other girls is at the top of the class. She's not being judged against the whole class like the guys are, but she's being judged against just the super exceptional girls.<p>I can only imagine that lots of girls feel this way in their first intro class and give up.

This is some delicious copy pasta. It's a great article and a good read but I don't think it needs to constantly be thrust upon HN every few months.

This has been posted before. It was interesting enough the first time, but the topic always seems to generate a high ratio of noise to signal.

I had never heard of the Impostor Syndrome, was interested to learn about it via the link in the article<i>. Thanks-<p></i><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impostor_syndrome</a>

I don't think it has anything to do with girls. CS is just a relatively more anti-social major and guys are masters at it.

I think this says something sad about the governing college. I don't know what it's like for a "general CS" student at my University, but I'm fortunate to be part of a community that is VERY inter and intrasupportive of each other, especially when someone is behind or deficient in knowledge. This really doesn't seem to suffer at all across gender lines as well.<p>But then again, this community recruits based on business skills and computer programming skills. I don't know that sexism and arrogance would come off well in an interview.