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College students are learning hard lessons about anti-cheating software

220 pointsby discocriscoover 4 years ago

41 comments

ege_erdoganover 4 years ago
I see online synchronous 1-2 hour exams as a mistaken result of the &quot;let&#x27;s emulate in-person teaching in a remote setting&quot; mindset.<p>You don&#x27;t succeed in remote teaching and learning by trying to make it as close as possible to the in-person setup. You have to treat it as an entirely different problem.<p>Consider the synchronous exam. It is a perfect method of grading in-person. It is hard to cheat and all people take the same test in the same place. It is as fair as it can get.<p>In an online setting however, people can face all sort of troubles in a few hour window in their home. Your internet might stop working, neighbor might be making too much noise etc. Everyone takes the exam in a different setting and it is as unequal as it can get. It is also practically impossible to prevent cheating.
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iandanforthover 4 years ago
A few points:<p>Their &quot;powerful AI engine&quot; is almost certainly just humans. It might have a few off-the-shelf components like face detection but most of what they claim to do is just so easy to outsource that almost all companies do it. If there is any delay between the system observing a suspect behaviour and the student being told to correct it then they are <i>definitely</i> using humans.<p>An institution using a service like this is a huge red flag. You should take it as an indicator of a low quality administration if not a low quality institution.<p>As an engineering problem this task is <i>hard.</i> Ryan Calo (Prof of Law, UW) once presented a fascinating bit of research on trying to automate something as simple as fining someone for speeding. Given perfect information how do you build the system? If someone exceeds the speed limit for 1 second, do you fine them? If everyone around the person is exceeding the speed limit do you use the same rules? If someone oscillates between just above and just below the speed limit, how many times do you fine them? If someone exceeds the speed limit and <i>stays there</i> does this result in fewer fines? How do you square the code written with the law as written? The problems are so extensive it may be that application of rules like this require <i>human level</i> judgement. Proctoring an exam may turn out to be an AI-complete problem.
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low_keyover 4 years ago
I took an online class in 2015 that used Proctorio. Even at that time the proctoring&#x2F;anti-cheat software was a nightmare. I was semi-accused of cheating because of &quot;anomalies&quot; during one of my tests. It was quickly cleared up by talking to the professor.<p>The software is a privacy disaster and any computer that has had any of this spyware installed should be considered compromised. I kept a separate hard drive and would swap it in to take tests.<p>To fix the problem, grading measures need to be changed to accommodate the new world of online classes rather than trying to shoehorn old test proctoring into a remote space. This software only stops bad cheaters anyway.<p>I&#x27;m already imagining the fights I&#x27;m going to have with my daughter&#x27;s schools in the future when they ask us to install this malware.
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colechristensenover 4 years ago
Fuck grades.<p>They were already a problem in universities and this is their final and worst form.<p>University systems have the major problem that a significant portion of students are only there for a degree, and their participation is playing the game in order to get that piece of paper, and the GPA number rating them.<p>The core of this problem is the question “will this be on the exam?”<p>Testing of course can be an important part of learning, but making that the metric by which you decide to hand out degrees substantially damages the value of testing as a teaching tool, and damages the value of a university as a place for research and learning.<p>Another way needs to be found to sort students into degree worthiness.<p>Raising humans for the first quarter of their lives in a dystopian police state is not what anybody should strive for. We need to figure out how to measure people less.
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pdkl95over 4 years ago
&gt; At the self-described “heart” of the company’s monitoring software is Monitor AI, a “powerful artificial intelligence engine” that collects facial detection data [...] to identify “patterns and anomalies associated with cheating.”<p>&gt; &quot;... people who have some sort of facial disfigurement have special challenges; they might get flagged because their face has an unexpected geometry.”<p>So this company is extrapolating &quot;patterns ... associated with cheating&quot; from facial geometry. This is just <i>phrenology</i> laundered through their &quot;powerful artificial intelligence engine&quot; black box. Predicting behavior from the shape of someone&#x27;s skull is still bullshit pseudoscience, even if the calipers[1] are replaced with a bunch of linear algebra.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;antiquescientifica.com&#x2F;phrenology_calipers_George_Combe_on_Wells_bust.jpg" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;antiquescientifica.com&#x2F;phrenology_calipers_George_Com...</a>
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parzivalmover 4 years ago
The thing that has always frustrated me about anti-cheating&#x2F;anti-plagiarism software is that it almost always only hurts people that did something by accident or unintentionally. When I took the one kubernetes certification exam as part of an old job, you used software like this and at one point I leaned too close to the screen and the proctor couldn&#x27;t see my face and that got me flagged.<p>People that want to cheat or game the system will find ways, it isn&#x27;t hard to do. In undergrad we setup a copy of the code checking software that our department used so that we could share code without it getting flagged as copies. I&#x27;m sure there are ways to game these systems too if you are motivated enough.<p>One of the issues is also just academia being so hyper-focused on thinking everyone is there to become an academic which is not the case for the vast majority of people. So these exams and the guidelines for student evaluation is grounded in that expectation instead of the reality.
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hahamrfunnyguyover 4 years ago
Using this software sounds idiotic. They&#x27;re trying to apply methods to in-person learning to distance learning. Instead of focusing on detecting cheating, they should be re-evaluating their grading and teaching methodology so that cheating is unproductive. Prioritize in class participation and essay writing. If tests are needed, they can be timed and open book.<p>Great example of why our educational system isn&#x27;t all that good.<p>I took a year of Japanese in college. A big part of the grade was memorizing and performing these dialogs. If you didn&#x27;t remember the dialog word for word, you&#x27;d get points off. I wasted a lot of time trying to memorize those stupid things when I could have been acquiring new vocabulary words or studying Kanji. I took a trip to Japan a couple of years go, and did some brushing up for a couple of months before I left. I learned more in those two months than I did in my entire time at school.
motohagiographyover 4 years ago
Running essays through searches for similarity is one thing, this de-facto remote polygraph is quite another.<p>Polygraphs are bullshit and basically select for submissive behavior, which I suppose is what these institutions are looking to reward, but it is conspicuous that nobody called these surveillance schemes what they truly are: degrading.
ev1over 4 years ago
I have never once seen this software meaningfully work in any reasonable manner other than be a massive privacy violation and be a massive waste of time for the GSIs being forced to go through a timestamped log of every time a student blinked.<p>How about writing open-book tests in ways that are impossible to cheat on if you don&#x27;t understand the material? You&#x27;ve had almost a year to adapt.<p>Why outsource student PII to a developing country sweatshop? This all seems absurd to me, it&#x27;s been much easier to just write a one-liner inline script to hook blur, focus, visibilitychange, and onkeydown and log the userid when the event happens.
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jccalhounover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m a professor in the humanities so I can write tests that make it harder to cheat than some other fields. I cringe whenever I hear someone using these invasive kinds of software. There has to be a better way than making students install spyware.
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NikolaeVariusover 4 years ago
I wonder if all disciplines have this problem.<p>Most of my engineering higher level classes were open everything not electronic. If you don&#x27;t know how to tackle the problem, you&#x27;re not going to finish on time.
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serjesterover 4 years ago
From the many students I know, I can tell you that cheating is rampant in online learning. The average GPA has gone up 0.3 points at my alma mater. I don&#x27;t think people understand just how widespread it is.<p>This software isn&#x27;t ideal but there&#x27;s no good solutions here short of major rethink of how these classes, and possible all of the college, is structured.
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madhadronover 4 years ago
For those of us who went to University of Virginia, this seems truly weird. I was allowed to take my exam anywhere I wanted. In physics, a lot of us would just head up to the much more comfortable tables in the physics library to take our exams. If someone walked in wanting to talk, we would say, &quot;Pledge&quot; (that is, we were under pledge not to cheat on the assignment) and they would say &quot;OK&quot; and leave.<p>And then there were the take home, open book, open notes, you have three days to finish this exams...
TrackerFFover 4 years ago
This is, IMO, just lazy professors that didn&#x27;t bother to make exams for the digital space. Instead, they invested money and resources in digital proctors - with all the invasive pains that come with it.<p>If you can&#x27;t bother to make a proper exam, don&#x27;t bother. Rather make the classes pass&#x2F;fail on project work, or grade the classes on projects &#x2F; home exams. Trying to bring a 100% replica of the physical exam space into the digital space is just a recipe for disaster.
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nlhover 4 years ago
I found myself brewing with rage while reading this article. The approach of closely inspecting a student&#x27;s words &amp; physical actions while taking a test just feels...dated. Ancient. Anachronistic. Embarrassing.<p>In the real world of 2020+, almost everyone has a portable Hitchhiker&#x27;s Guide to the Galaxy in their pocket. Let people use calculators. Heck, let people use Wikipedia! If they copy an incorrect fact from Wikipedia, well, that&#x27;s their problem and penalize them for that.<p>Education needs to be considered in the context of the world we live in. If you want to test students, then develop ways of TESTING students - move to live oral exams. Written long-form essays. Develop education techniques that USE the tools we&#x27;re blessed to have around us instead of fearing them.<p>I don&#x27;t have all the answers as I haven&#x27;t thought about this deeply enough. But I&#x27;ve got to imagine there are ways of testing learning &amp; knowledge that aren&#x27;t based on fact memorization &amp; regurgitation or performing calculations in your head that can easily be done on a calculator.
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godelskiover 4 years ago
I think this illustrates the problems I have with these ML systems. Technology is supposed to make our lives easier. While surveillance may help catch more &quot;bad guys&quot; (clearly something we as a society argue over the definition of) it also causes many a lot of anxiety. One has to question if the added incrimination is worth the cost of anxiety to the public. Personally I do not think this is a good trade because even long before all this surveillance technology I felt safe in society. I believe most people did even in the 50&#x27;s and 60&#x27;s. So has the added surveillance really helped decrease crime? Or is it just correlated? (I&#x27;m not even convinced it is correlated).<p>As for tests, there is an easier solution to all this. Write your test as if it was a take home. Open notes. You can&#x27;t stop people from communicating but often these types of exams&#x2F;assignments it becomes clear who is doing it. In my undergrad all my upper division classes&#x27; exams were take home because &quot;I can&#x27;t test you on anything worthwhile in 2 hours.&quot; Honestly, most of us enjoyed these more. We often did the exams in the same room (we had the back of a building that was dedicated as a lounge to the physics students) and no one really cheated. The closest was &quot;hey, I&#x27;m stuck on this problem and I know you are finished. Can I just use you as a rubber ducky?&quot; (more like just explaining the problem to the person and the other person saying &quot;uh huh&quot; and no more) It also made me feel like an adult because our professors trusted us. As someone that frequently does poorly in a testing environment I was also surprised that I was able to get much higher scores on these tests despite the added complexity. The simple fact that I could &quot;take a break and come back&quot; was all the piece of mind I needed (or grabbing a beer when I felt frustrated). This also better reflected, in my opinion, what solving difficult problems were like in the real world. I could grab my book, go to the page that I know is helpful, sit and think, take of my shoes, pace, whatever. I was treated like an adult and it felt good.
wccrawfordover 4 years ago
IMO, the problem isn&#x27;t the software. It&#x27;s how humans are using the software.<p>The software itself shouldn&#x27;t have <i>any</i> control over the student&#x27;s grades. A person should have to review the flags and actually find some wrongdoing. Not just push &#x27;yes&#x27; and walk away.
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kart23over 4 years ago
Voice of San Diego has been doing some great reporting. This is yet another example.<p>Profs who use these things are examples of teachers who just don&#x27;t care enough to revamp their courses to involve more project, critical-thinking assignments, or exams where cheating won&#x27;t help. They don&#x27;t want to do the work to adjust the course for remote learning, and just give the course that they always teach, and do whatever it takes to get as close to the in-person exam that they used to have.
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AbhyudayaSharmaover 4 years ago
These &#x27;anti-cheat&#x27; softwares don&#x27;t actually prevent cheating. One of my teachers tried to use one called MyPerfectice (thankfully we persuaded her to switch). I think most of these are built without any understanding of the constraints set up by the browser. I don&#x27;t know about the others but MyPerfectice gives you 4 or 5 window going out of focus events before making your attempt invalid. The funny thing is that they allow students to upload files from their system and allow focus to be lost during that. So if you click the upload button, it opens the OS file selection window and you are then free from all the checks they set up. Open a new window and cheat as much as you like.<p>I&#x27;m wondering if it&#x27;s possible to just do a custom build of Firefox&#x2F;Chrome that does not trigger these out of focus events.<p>Coming to the video streams, just record a 1-2 minute video of yourself staring into your screen from your webcam and loop it through OBS. No one will notice anything. For MyPerfectice, it is even easier, they have their camera controls exposed as unobfuscated global objects. So you can essentially do something like `camera.stop()` and the webcam light turns off.
swileyover 4 years ago
There has to be a point where students will revolt against the abusive behavior of universities in the US right?<p>Or is this just another social pathology that we need to rethink?
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sersheover 4 years ago
A fairly typical form of exam in Russia is &quot;written-oral&quot;, where students are writing a test together as usual, with everyone given different problems to solve&#x2F;theorems to prove&#x2F;things to describe, but the time slot is way larger than required for most people, and in the end when you are done a professor (of which several are usually present) sits with you for 5-15mins to discuss whatever you wrote, maybe asks some extra questions, and gives you a grade on the spot.<p>So, if you copy a perfect solution and have no idea how what you copied works, you are likely to fail anyway; if you just happened to get unlucky with your problems you may still be able to talk your way into a B&#x2F;C showing you know stuff.<p>This sounds like an absolutely perfect match for zoom, since the problem where there are a bunch of people in the audience constantly discussing some other problems (or problems similar enough you can get a hint) doesn&#x27;t exist anymore, and you don&#x27;t need to book a large room for 6 hours so the stragglers could all be talked to by professors.
primrootover 4 years ago
This reminds of what Filtered.AI does. Except that it does it for some sort of automated job interview. When interviewing through them, I had to install a Chrome Plugin that recorded audio, video, and browsing activity at all moments. But I guess they&#x27;re just trying to fix the software engineer interview process.
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hacknatover 4 years ago
I’m skeptical that you could train an DNN (or any AI) to detect cheating except maybe in browser usage patterns, but recognizing facial patterns!? What data set could they possibly have found to detect such a thing and what proof do they even have that it’s detectable?!
sleepysysadminover 4 years ago
In a couple other thread people recommended Grammarly. I&#x27;m giving it a try right now.<p>I without question wrote every bit of this text. It&#x27;s saying I plagiarized. I feel like plagiarism software isn&#x27;t quite there yet.<p>1 thing is for sure though. I certainly don&#x27;t use enough commas.
bpodgurskyover 4 years ago
My wife teaches CS (remotely right now) and I feel like a lot of the commenters here don&#x27;t really understand what &quot;cheating&quot; consists of right now. The common vectors are:<p>- Finding an answer online (on Chegg), and copy-pasting it. For homework, this is super common. Unless you build every assignment from scratch each quarter, there will be an answer available online.<p>- Paying someone to take the exam for you.<p>&quot;Let them use wikipedia&quot; resolves like 0% of the problems people actually run into when teaching remote classes. The problems are when people cruise through a class with 0 actual effort, through a combination of looking up answers online, and getting someone to just sit exams in your place.
souprockover 4 years ago
At least the online class cheating increases fairness. Now you can cheat without having the money to purchase a bogus disability claim. For many years now, all the well-off schemers have been taking tests with twice as much time as normal. Nobody in academia dares to push back at this fraud, out of fear that they might be pilloried for failure to accommodate. Honest students usually aren&#x27;t even aware of just how unfair the system is. It affects high school, college admissions tests, and college.<p>The whole system is put at risk by the fraud. Grades become less meaningful because we&#x27;ve added a randomish negative signal. That devalues everything.
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ilakshover 4 years ago
I haven&#x27;t been buried on HN for awhile so I will go ahead and present my opinion.<p>It&#x27;s clear that the proper execution of anti-cheating is critical to avoiding a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.<p>Having said that, I do think that it is needed and will improve college efficacy.<p>Cheating in college has been an epidemic, with a majority of students surveyed saying they have cheated, and a significant percentage of those saying that it&#x27;s acceptable.<p>If the courses are too hard or curriculum irrelevant or course loads too high, then those problems should be fixed. Cheating is not the answer.
lowbloodsugarover 4 years ago
Why are we building exams that are only valid if people don&#x27;t use google? Will google suddenly disappear when I get a job? Modern exams should require me to use google.<p>What we need is a way to have every exam question be unique to each student. If a student google the &quot;how to&quot; and then does it, great!<p>Is it fitting that Vernor Vinge wrote about this in Rainbows End [1]? He was a professor at SDSU.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Rainbows_End" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Rainbows_End</a>
chriskananover 4 years ago
I just got rid of my exams for my deep learning courses once the pandemic hit. It doesn&#x27;t make sense to have these traditional exams with remote education.
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caymanjimover 4 years ago
College students are easy to manipulate because they&#x27;re young and naive and still used to taking orders from control figures like their parents. They need to realize the power they wield and simply refuse to participate in this intrusive monitoring. They don&#x27;t have to play the game, and the school can&#x27;t exist without their tuition.
mensetmanusmanover 4 years ago
This sounds like a nightmare. Just use all this time we have to give 1:1 verbal exams to test knowledge and gaps.
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searchableguyover 4 years ago
I curious if proactive measures to curb cheating like inthe parent post results in lesser people cheating outside of college environment.<p>Any controlled studies?<p>Are college students more ethical and honest than their non college counterparts?
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dustedover 4 years ago
Stupefying how this can be happening when we consider the vast amount of science-fiction depicting these kinds of situations, maybe someone took them for instruction videos instead of warnings..
heimatauover 4 years ago
As a current college student (33 yr old). Higher education is just a terrible rite of passage. I could give them tips on HN but who am I kidding? I won&#x27;t waste my brain power on their problems.
ashtonianover 4 years ago
So do the students have any legal recourse here? Seems pretty invasive and I personally would not comply l possible but I&#x27;m not sure that would be an option.
supportlocal4hover 4 years ago
If a prof needs a final exam to be able to assess a student&#x27;s proficiency, they are doing it wrong.
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happynachoover 4 years ago
Comp Sci majors are the ones that are definitely beating the system though. Speaking from experience.
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qwerty456127over 4 years ago
All the &quot;anti-cheating&quot; (spying) software should be outlawed.
MeinBlutIstBlauover 4 years ago
These companies should actively be put out of business. College is garbage as it is. Now theyre actively suppressing people with lower incomes and lesser resources or abilities.
Sparkyteover 4 years ago
I felt like this had to do with the generation of hacking kids in COD matches. Then they realize there are actual real life consequences to cheating.
at-fates-handsover 4 years ago
So many privacy flags on this one, I&#x27;m shocked colleges are using this software.<p>Just a few highlights from the article that really stick out:<p><i>“You have to record your environment, you have to record the whole desk, under the desk, the whole room,” Molina recalled. “And you need to use a mirror to show that you don’t have anything on your keyboard.”</i><p><i>On top of that, if the wireless connection was disturbed during an exam, Molina said, students would receive an automatic zero — no excuses.</i><p><i>He said he didn’t realize he hadn’t sufficiently shown his notepaper to his webcam, or that his habit of talking through questions aloud would be considered suspicious.</i><p><i>“At the beginning of the exam, you leave the area for about one minute without explanation,” Merrill wrote in an email to Molina. She added that it looked like he was using his calculator for problems that did not require a calculation and that he solved certain problems too quickly. As a result, Molina was given an F in the course and his case was submitted to SDSU’s Center for Student Rights and Responsibilities, where he could appeal the decision.</i><p><i>Neekoly Solis, an SDSU junior and first-year transfer student, said each test-taker now has to verbally explain each of their calculations to their webcam every time they use their calculators during an exam.</i><p><i>Then, she had to show the camera her desk, and underneath her desk, with her bulky desktop computer. She realized she was in a pair of shorts, and her webcam was picking up — and recording — seconds of her bare legs that could be seen by her older male professor. She was creeped out.<p>“You have to do a crotch shot, basically,” said Jason Kelley, associate director of research at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a digital privacy group based in San Francisco. He recalled watching a tutorial video from another proctoring system called HonorLock, horrified as he watched the video subject do a long pan of their body.</i><p>Some other unsettling parts about the data their collecting:<p><i>Respondus’s website states that the default data retention period for Respondus Monitor is five years, but the client can change that.</i><p>And worse yet, what about the appeal process? Not exactly in the students favor:<p><i>Molina appealed. But even well into the fall semester and over a month after the accusations were filed, the office had canceled his scheduled meetings twice due to coronavirus-related emergencies.</i><p><i>After the third rescheduling, Molina finally had the chance to explain himself. One week later, he received a letter of “no action,” meaning the university would not pursue disciplinary action against him. He forwarded the letter to his business administration professors and requested that he get the grade he deserved. He said he had already emailed the student ombudsman twice, and never received a reply. Merrill finally gave him his grade back, almost two months after he’d received an F in the class.</i><p>In conclusion, you have a dodgy software program, that&#x27;s highly invasive to your privacy. It can take months to get your appeal figured out. In the meantime, you&#x27;re left to twist in the wind. And worst of all, the company keeps your data for five years.