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I Regret Quitting Astrophysics

196 pointsby petschgeover 4 years ago

38 comments

supernova87aover 4 years ago
Do I miss quitting astrophysics?<p>Hmm, which do I miss?<p>-- The once-per-year job cycle where if you don&#x27;t find something you like, you have to wait another year to land your next soft money position?<p>-- The lack of perception of fairness or clear criteria for how the top fellowships are awarded?<p>-- The feeling that you&#x27;re in an endless apprenticeship model like a pyramid scheme where only by the top people leaving do you get a chance to have some responsibility, better pay, freedom?<p>Hmm. Turns out I don&#x27;t miss it so much.
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unemphysbroover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m a new-isly minted biophysics PhD. The reason I got into physics was because it felt fulfilling and my opinion of industry was shaped by a high-school internship at a defense contractor which was a total slog.<p>During my PhD, I got the full experience, drumming up new ideas, grant&#x2F;proposal writing, managing and setting project goals, maintaining collaborations and doing the actual work. It was fulfilling and fun especially working with great group of people that are 100% dedicated but, boy, was really, really hard.<p>The long hours, terrible pay, and watching people stuck in the post-doc treadmill got to me. Plus, I saw quite a few 2-body problems fall apart (mine included). I also watched my advisor go through the tenure process, it seemed like he never slept.<p>It&#x27;s been challenging getting into industry (I&#x27;m still looking :) ), but, if I make it, I&#x27;ll write a blog post to see if there are any regrets in 5 years. But, like the author, I&#x27;m already missing the culture, going to seminars (the terrible seminar coffee), and nerding out with friends in other disciplines.
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antogniniover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m another astrophysicist who left academia for industry and this post definitely speaks to me. I wouldn&#x27;t go so far as to say that I regret my decision to leave academia, but I will admit to wondering what could have been if I had stayed. After getting my PhD I had a postdoc position lined up with a professor I was excited to work with and had won the NSF astronomy &amp; astrophysics postdoctoral fellowship. (It&#x27;s not the most prestigious fellowship in astronomy, but it&#x27;s not too far down the list, depending on your sub-field.)<p>My feeling at the time was that I was a good enough researcher that getting postdoc positions probably wouldn&#x27;t be a problem, so I could stay in the field for another ~6--8 years if I wanted to. And if my research had gone well in those jobs there was a <i>reasonable</i> chance (say, 50-50) that I could get a tenure-track job <i>somewhere</i>. But I wasn&#x27;t super comfortable with that risk along with having very little freedom as to where I would live. (Having a two-body problem didn&#x27;t help either.) I also factored in the opportunity cost of staying, say, ~8 years in postdoc roles before switching to industry and figured that if there was a good chance that I was going to leave academia eventually, I should do it sooner rather than later. Part of this was motivated by some researchers I interacted with who were really smart, did great research, but just kept jumping from postdoc to postdoc and couldn&#x27;t land anything permanent.<p>While I do miss the astro research, I have learned a <i>lot</i> from industry that I would never have even known existed had I stayed in astronomy. (This may be more a function of working at a startup than industry work in general.) I&#x27;m not sure what work OP is doing specifically, but the industry work I&#x27;ve been doing has been pretty fulfilling. It helps that I&#x27;ve mostly been working on applying ML to health technology. Industry is a big place! There is a lot of fulfilling work out there even if it can take time to find it.
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mym1990over 4 years ago
The mind has a way of tricking us into remembering many of the good things and fewer of the bad ones(or sometimes even rationalizing bad things into good ones). Not to say that the regret here isn&#x27;t valid, but just to be careful how much stock to put into missing the &#x27;good ole days&#x27;.<p>&quot;The people who questioned my decision to become an extronomer were right. I was wrong. It seems too late to get back in.&quot;<p>This mindset irks me because this individual strikes me as being bright, talented, curious, and hard working. You are not wrong because you took a leap in life and it didn&#x27;t work out perfectly, its a valuable learning experience. It is different if you assess the opportunity costs and risks and rewards with going back to astrophysics and decide that it is not worth it and move on...but to say it is &#x27;too late&#x27; is you pouting and trying to let yourself down easy.
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reptationover 4 years ago
&gt; Being at the forefront of figuring things out about the workings of the Universe is amazing, and unparalleled in any business setting.<p>This is the key attitude to gauging whether it&#x27;s worth sticking it out in academia. I tell people you really need to be &#x27;obsessed&#x27; with science (indeed, obsession is really a key concept: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=riaYwt0gf20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=riaYwt0gf20</a>). Just being interested in problem-solving isn&#x27;t close to enough to put up with the low pay and rather tough working conditions. There&#x27;s lots of interesting problems out there in industry.
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otrasover 4 years ago
This reminds of a colleague&#x27;s joke: what do you call a physicist a few years after they get their degree?<p>A data scientist!<p>I only completed my undergrad in physics before shifting to tech, but I&#x27;ve seen many instances of people working in software&#x2F;programming&#x2F;data science roles after their undergrad&#x2F;grad studies in physics.
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LetThereBeLightover 4 years ago
What the author appears to be describing is the experience of being a PhD student&#x2F;postdoc that he misses. As faculty you are (usually) no longer running experiments and analyzing data, but managing people&#x2F;projects, writing&#x2F;reviewing papers, teaching, sitting on committees, and constantly applying for grants. While it is indeed unlikely he can find a faculty position after 7 years of being out of academia, he may in fact be happier looking for a senior scientist position at a university. As long as he is okay with the salary that is.
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mellosoulsover 4 years ago
Most of the regrets here seem to be about quitting academia or &quot;meaningful&quot; work rather than astrophysics per se.<p>No reason why as a data scientist he can&#x27;t pivot from financial services into something more research oriented within industry, or back into academia; the pay will likely be much less in the latter case, but the opportunities for work on a more meaningful track with like-minded people will be there.
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julienchastangover 4 years ago
&gt; It seems too late to get back in.<p>It is probably too late to get a tenure (or scientist) track position, but through perseverance I think you can work as a software developer (and probably a bit of a pay cut if you are OK with that) in any number of scientific research institutions (e.g., JPL, any number of FFRDCs). Many of these software engineering jobs have the possibility of working remotely, as well. And your PhD will be a big help if you are applying for NSF, NASA, DOE grants. I work at an atmospheric science research institute and we are in the process of hiring an AI&#x2F;ML developer. I too prefer the academic &#x2F; research institute life. I am looking forward to getting back to science conferences when the pandemic is over.
cbanekover 4 years ago
Let me just say to all those out there who have left academia and went into industry: academia would be happy to have you back!<p>I went into &quot;academia&quot; (or close to it), doing software engineering for a telescope being built. Astronomers are a great little community out there, and they really need help writing code. A lot of them aren&#x27;t familiar or have experience with best industry practices that could save them so much time&#x2F;money&#x2F;heartache.<p>Bunches of projects are hiring, and if you have creds, and industry experience, that will only increase your value. I&#x27;m sure you could find a job at any of the wonderful facilities wherever you want to be around the world!<p>Sometimes you have to look at the grass from the other side to realize it&#x27;s greener, and that&#x27;s fine. Some day I may go back to industry and get paid again. But it&#x27;s all good fun anyway.
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markus_zhangover 4 years ago
The thing is if you don&#x27;t quit then there is going to be another post about regretting not quitting.<p>I have gone past the age to feel strongly regret to any choice I made. As long as I made a desicive choice without much delay I&#x27;m good with it (of course unless something really bad happens), because I know I&#x27;d regret if I choose the other way (or not), anyway.
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dclover 4 years ago
&gt; I miss passion and being proud of what I do. The internet says I have ”the sexiest job of the 21st century”, but I think my previous job was more enjoyable to brag about at birthday parties.<p>Hits way too close to home!<p>As a bullshit data scientist, I cry a little inside when people ask me what I do. Whilst I deeply miss academia for the same reasons in that post, I absolutely don&#x27;t regret leaving. I do however, regret quitting the bank&#x2F;quant job I got immediately after finishing my PhD. Was far more interesting, challenging, productive and way more useful than the absolute nonsense I typically work on now.
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bumbyover 4 years ago
This reminds me of a semi-recent <i>Freakanomics</i> podcast where Steve Levitt voiced his disillusionment with academia where you could spend years working on a paper that only gets read by a handful of people. It was contrasted to business applications that can help hundreds or thousands of people. In his words, he had “gotten tired of academic research and decided I should try to do something useful for a while.”<p>Maybe grass is always greener on the other side of the fence or maybe we should be focused on a more balanced approach to our careers.
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onecommentmanover 4 years ago
If people are reading this article and perhaps considering a serious reassessment of their life, I strongly recommend doing an outreach to those many folks who have made such a move in both directions In particular, to a sample of those who made the move 5 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago and even longer. Time brings perspective...a 5 year view is different than a 10 year view than is different from a 20 year view. I did a bit flip at around 12 years.<p>Also there are lots of ways to maintain a connection with the academic worldview without being a full-time academic...adjunct, professional societies, journals, online communities, etc. You can eat the food without being a dishwasher.
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secabeenover 4 years ago
It was interesting to see the author specifically call out the joys of working in a University environment. It is a unique environment, and working with&#x2F;for some of the smartest people in the world is a nice perk.
sujeetbover 4 years ago
Slightly related - I’d like to hear from someone who left academia for industry for a ‘research scientist’ role. How does that compare to academia?
aqme28over 4 years ago
You learned something really important about what you don&#x27;t like. That&#x27;s not worth regretting.<p>Get back into academia with newfound commitment. This time you won&#x27;t be looking over your shoulder wondering if you&#x27;re missing something in &quot;the real world.&quot;
hpoeover 4 years ago
Interesting that the pay difference didn&#x27;t come up at all. I would&#x27;ve thought that would be a big change from Academia to Business.
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InfiniteRandover 4 years ago
I sometimes regret the road not taken with academia (in my case History), but if I am honest with myself given the frequency of mental breakdowns and depression that marked my college years, there’s a good chance that I would have burned out or died. Pursuing financial stability and then a family life has made my mind overall more stable, even if I don’t get the same mental challenges I might otherwise get. And while I might have been able achieve financial security and family life in academia, there is a good chance it would not happen or would come much delayed.<p>Not saying that this is the best of all universes but just saying that the road not travelled isn’t necessarily one that would haven ended in success, even though it’s tempting to think of things in that way.
beeforporkover 4 years ago
You can definitely go back -- academia loves people with industry experience. Few people go back because they typically earn less money in academic jobs. So you now have something academia loves, and there is little competition of other people having that kind of experience.
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peter303over 4 years ago
Funny, I have been going in the opposite direction of learning more astrophysics as a retirement hobby. So many university seminars and professional conferences are online now, I practically drown in them. Plus there is so much data online too, and tsunamis of data as the new super telescopes come online. My PhD training in another branch of physics allows me to understand the math and data analysis. What is lacking is a PhD level understanding of the research frontier, i.e. what constitutes a unit of research that is significant and achievable in a publication cycle. That you obtain by apprenticing yourself as a grad student&#x2F;postdoc in a quality research group.
atemerevover 4 years ago
Went to the academia this year for the first time after 10 years of working as an infrastructure software engineer in finance.<p>I miss the money, of course, but doing research makes me much happier.
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astrophysicianover 4 years ago
As another former astrophysicist-turned-datascientist (though with only 2 years after the transition instead of Marcel&#x27;s 7), this hits close to home, but my experience in both worlds I think is a bit different.<p>If you are an astrophysicist curious about moving into the datascience profession, I would just like to point out that satisfaction with a move like that depends on a large number of factors, and that you should consider not only Marcel&#x27;s experiences (which I think are important and shared by many) but your own personal circumstances. There are pro&#x27;s and con&#x27;s for every person.<p>Let me offer another datapoint:<p>* I left after my PhD, which ended absolutely terribly. I knew years before finishing that I was just not cut out for a life in academia, and positioned myself in the best way I knew how for a life in industry, but I did not anticipate just how truly painful the experience would be. I stayed to finish my PhD out of a nagging obligation to follow through with a lifelong dream of mine. I thought I would deeply regret leaving after receiving my masters degree. Whether or not that is true, I really don&#x27;t (and will never) know. But I was not happy.<p>* My personal reasons for unhappiness are not uncommon but are definitely not universal. I did not excel at the entrepreneurial and social aspects of astrophysics that are crucial for success. Without strong social and professional ties to close collaborators within the community, and without an innate ability to thrive in an environment with very little structure, add to that a predisposition for mental health problems, I burnt out quickly. I found myself withdrawing from social settings as burnout set in, and the hill was steeply downward from there. When I don&#x27;t socialize, my ideas stagnate, my work suffers, and my perspective warps until it&#x27;s easy to submit to delusions like &quot;I am doing great&quot; when really I was (obviously, in retrospect) not doing great at all.<p>* The transition to datascience was on one hand fantastic. I have a structure that (1) forces me to socialize daily, (2) forces me to confront my productivity levels frequently. Even when completely remote these past 9-10 months, I find my productivity is far more consistent than it was in graduate school, and my life is far more sane. I have a true work-life balance that I could only fantasize about before.<p>* The stress is much lower (in my current role). My work no longer defines who I am as a person. Doing what you love sounds great on paper but really what it means are higher highs and lower lows with each small success and failure. While in the beginning of my graduate school experience, I was reasonably well-rounded and rational, as I dived deeper into my own thesis work, I started noticing that I became far less receptive to criticism. My thesis work was so integral to my identity that it became harder and harder to be objective about it.<p>* Financially I am far more secure, and that is incredibly important to me. I&#x27;m not earning anywhere near as much as a $500k AI&#x2F;ML researcher at FAANG, but I&#x27;m also not earning a $30k grad student salary or a $50-60k postdoc salary. I can live extremely comfortably while still building a savings (and am no longer in credit card debt). I also can find a job in the location I want. I don&#x27;t need to write 20 detailed applications (all during &quot;application season&quot;) for roles around the world, wait months to hear replies, and then pack my bags to go wherever I&#x27;m accepted. That&#x27;s a hell of a perk.<p>* Like Marcel, however, I do find myself missing many aspects of the world of astrophysics. I miss a community completely made up of people at the top of their professional game, making groundbreaking contributions on existentially important things, where everyone seems to share the same &quot;datascience&quot; mindset. I miss symposiums and lunch talks and people with deep passion for what they do. <i>However</i> I have found it incredibly satisfying to work alongside people with <i>other</i> strengths; programmers, product, designers, and managers. These people may or may not have a deep passion for what they do (for some its a job, for others its a passion), but they all have incredibly valuable expertise to share and perspectives to offer. So in that sense, it&#x27;s not clear to me which world is better.<p>* As time wears on, I&#x27;m finding myself losing some of the knowledge I once had, and that&#x27;s a bummer. Datascience allows me to keep the statistics channels of my brain somewhat active, but I&#x27;m no longer doing things like graphical models and MCMC. I&#x27;m trying (slowly) to build a blog where I can do these things as a hobby, but it&#x27;s difficult to motivate a lot of times; I find that a lot of times it takes me back to the stressful mindset of grad school. I still have three unpublished papers from my graduate school days but the longer time goes, the less of a chance I think these will ever get published, but they stay in their current state because the last time they were touched I was almost losing my mind from stress and I just avoid teleporting myself back to that terrible time.<p>I apologize for the rant but my point is: your mileage may vary; Marcel makes some very good points but consider all the pros and cons for yourself. As someone else commented, a sufficiently motivated data scientist can definitely get back in the academic game (though it will be more challenging).
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bartreadover 4 years ago
&gt; On top of that, being geographically bound doesn’t help.<p>I can absolutely believe that this is still an issue, but it&#x27;s also highly disappointing that&#x27;s still the case.<p>All your data analysis is done on a computer, and I&#x27;d bet that every telescope or instrument you have to interact with is computer controlled and can be worked with remotely with little modification.<p>Yes, astrophysical datasets can be <i>absolutely enormous</i>, and bandwidth can become a serious constraint, but we have solutions to those problems too - that&#x27;s one of the reason terminal sessions (in their various modern guises) are so powerful.<p>You would think or hope that by the end of 2020 when a global pandemic has taught many of us that, for much of the time, for those of us whose working lives are mostly spent &quot;in computers&quot;, we would have learned that geography is not a significant barrier. At least not with decent enough internet connectivity.<p>Again, sadly, I&#x27;m not surprised to see that in certain circles it is still an issue. It&#x27;s a cultural change, and those can take an awfully long time to work themselves out.
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SpaceManNabsover 4 years ago
So far, I don&#x27;t regret continuing to get my PhD in astrophysics. A lot of my classmates do. Caveat: my background was a lot less privileged than some of my classmates at Peyton and Jadwin hall.<p>You might miss the people involved and the culture, but you can always cultivate and find that somewhere else. And not like you drop all those connections anyways.
qntmfredover 4 years ago
I started out as a physics major, but switched to computer science junior year, mostly out of consideration for career prospects. Of my 3 roommates who were also physics majors, all of them finished the degree and all now work in tech. I&#x27;ve said for a long time when I turn 60 I&#x27;m going back to physics.
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hoshover 4 years ago
Ikigai: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;amp&#x2F;s&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;chrismyers&#x2F;2018&#x2F;02&#x2F;23&#x2F;how-to-find-your-ikigai-and-transform-your-outlook-on-life-and-business&#x2F;amp&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.google.com&#x2F;amp&#x2F;s&#x2F;www.forbes.com&#x2F;sites&#x2F;chrismyers...</a><p>But I think there is one better: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;51947019-the-regenerative-life" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;51947019-the-regenerativ...</a><p>The key thing is (1) finding that within you which you want to contribute to something bigger than you (linking intrinsic motivation and to positive contributions towards society and community) (2) and then, growing the capacity to accomplish it.
the_arunover 4 years ago
I think passion rules everything for most of us - unless we have passion for money :)
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AntiImperialistover 4 years ago
The reasons for bad feeling including the loss of motivation may have nothing to do with what he thinks it is, either now or back when he quit academia.<p>If he&#x27;s prone to seasonal affective disorder (SAD), he may be feeling down because of that and taking it out on his career choice.<p>If you are feeling bad about your career, family or life situation,<p>- just buy a SAD lamp such as the Philips Wake Up lamp<p>- use it religiously for a week<p>- after a week, assess the problem again - do you feel the same about it?<p>If you&#x27;re prone to SAD, after a few days of using, your motivation will come back and the &quot;rational&quot; reasons which you felt very strongly about will lose all emotional charge.
jkingsberyover 4 years ago
&gt; I think I have gained skills and experience that can be very valuable to the astronomical community, but I know that that is simply not what candidates for academic positions are selected on.<p>t seems pretty damning to suggest that a community selects its members based on something other than having &quot;skills and experience that can be very valuable&quot; to that same community. Is that really true? Hopefully we&#x27;re putting the best people in place for these academic jobs, and not simply the well-connected people who happened to go to the fanciest schools.
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ProAmover 4 years ago
I wanted to do Astronomy or Astrophysics as a degree&#x2F;career choice when I was growing up. What changed my mind was every single astronomer or astrophysicist I spoke to about pursuing the career literally told me not to. No jobs, no money, don&#x27;t do it. Being young and unfamiliar I listened to their advice and went to university for a different career. Academia research seems like a lot of politics and bs to put up with however I think I would have enjoyed that career much more than software development I am in now.
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raziel2701over 4 years ago
It&#x27;s a tough one. The problem we haven&#x27;t solved as a society is what do we do with all these smart people? They need money so they go get a high paying job in finance or tech or consulting and then all that scientific training was kind of left aside right? So what was the point of the PhD?<p>A job with meaning is hard to find, maybe we should encourage and support all these smart people to start a business&#x2F;research venture? Because it feels wasteful to generate so many PhDs and nothing comes out of it.
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8bitsruleover 4 years ago
Being gainfully unemployed at a topic doesn&#x27;t mean you can&#x27;t stay relatively current with it, these days. Losing the title doesn&#x27;t strip you of your qualifications <i>or</i> reason.<p>With the right foundation and motivations, the quiet and solitude of being physically apart from it (and the politics) might actually improve your chances of real insight.
kkonceviciusover 4 years ago
&gt; I can do astro as a hobby, but that simply doesn’t give you enough time to do something substantial enough.<p>I think a better decision, for people in similar circumstances, would be doing corporate data-science as a hobby (via contracting or freelancing) and keeping your full-time astronomy career.
minimalistover 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t like posting acrimonious comments, but it is hard to find any sympathy for the author. The reasons are similar to the contempt held for people who decry the manipulation of public opinion, while our high-aptitude graduates decide to work for advertisement companies in the Bay Area in chase of the Almighty Dollar. It is sexy and high status, until more people consider the utility (or disutility) that these people bring to society. It sounds like the author is really lamenting a loss of status.<p>I recall a seminar given a few years back by an astronomy PhD graduate who was talking about career prospects outside of academia, and naturally all of them were &#x27;data science&#x27; related. The speaker&#x27;s first remark was something like &#x27;I don&#x27;t mean to say that data science is just marketing, but...&#x27; and then proceed to describe their career as a person &#x27;with statistics and scripting experience&#x27;... working in marketing.<p>In journalism, it is said that you can always find employment if you join the dark side, which is public relations. I think less people fool theirself in thinking that PR serves the public interest.<p>We can speculate about why we are hemorrhaging scientists to marketeers, but for the self-interested individual, it&#x27;s rational. I&#x27;ve always thought that teachers and scientists do not have as high status as they should for the contributions that they provide to society, but perhaps we shouldn&#x27;t want to attract people to those fields who are in it for the riches and glory.[†]<p>[†] (of course, it&#x27;s more nuanced than this)
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firefixover 4 years ago
&gt; I miss being motivated<p>The author should get back to it. Don’t leave a good thing.
credit_guyover 4 years ago
I think this guy should stop regretting. He used to do astrophysics and there were things he didn&#x27;t like about that. He&#x27;s now doing data science and there are things he doesn&#x27;t like about this, and looking back (with a bit of rose tinted glasses) at his life 7 years ago, he has regrets.<p>Newsflash: the vast majority of jobs out there are not that fun. That&#x27;s why you get paid. If they were a lot of fun, you&#x27;d be the one who pays, just like you pay when you go to a concert. Some jobs are meaningful. Working for Moderna and making a vaccine that&#x27;s going to save millions of lives, that&#x27;s meaningful. Finding a cure for a certain type of cancer, it&#x27;s meaningful. But saying that astrophysics is meaningful because some internet surveys find it to be &quot;the sexiest job in the world&quot;, that&#x27;s quite shallow. 99.9999% of the jobs out there don&#x27;t end up with you saving the world. You just do some stuff, get paid for it, and then go home and live your life with your family and friends.
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ErikAugustover 4 years ago
&quot;It seems too late to get back in.&quot;<p>The author appears to be alive, and astrophysics still seems to exist. So, what exactly is the problem? I expect wrong answers only.
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