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Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

93 pointsby sasvariover 4 years ago

16 comments

throwaway67853over 4 years ago
IMHO the big problem in experimental sciences is what the article kindly describes as power imbalances. I&#x27;d call it perhaps neofeudalism.<p>I&#x27;ve seen many cases where principal investigators &#x2F; professors are completely disconnected from research, including an absolute lack of any basic knowledge related to the field. They are just middlemen. For someone coming from pure mathematics, where professors routinely come up with great results themselves, this was incredibly shocking.<p>Those I&#x27;ve met who don&#x27;t know much always run the same scheme. They have a few postdocs doing all work and writing all grant proposals, but never getting their names on them. They always work towards some vague promotion that never comes. Whenever they obtain any good result, the professor or principal investigator will take all credit. Usually they will get diluted quickly, by simply pushing follow up experiments to others.<p>Bell Labs, MRC LMB and Cold Spring Harbor were somewhat successful in preventing this kind of middlemen behavior. Among other things, they banned anyone from supervising more than 5 people. It worked.
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physicsguyover 4 years ago
For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc.<p>By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me.<p>I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surprising for e.g. that there are underrepresented groups in some fields of science at lectureship level when they basically have to sacrifice any stability in order to get to that position. I grew up quite poor and do not want to get into that position again - and I can’t afford to not have a job gap for 4 months which is the sort of length I’ve seen friends endure while one contract ends and another starts.
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code4teeover 4 years ago
A long time ago the best talent from PhD programs tended to stay in academia. That was considered the “prize.” Over the last 15 years or so the tables have really turned. Not saying top people don’t stay, but I now see much if not most of the top talent continuing their careers in the private sector or elsewhere. We’re in an era where the most cutting edge and impactful research increasingly does not take place at academic institutions. Between that and the vastly different compensation structures in the private sector it’s not too surprising top people want to go elsewhere.<p>As someone mentioned to me recently “Success in academia is defined by publishing papers mostly read only by a few other people that define success as publishing papers. Success outside academia is defined by doing amazing $&amp;@! that has a measurable impact on the world.”
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marmadukeover 4 years ago
I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health?<p>I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps smart, will to power people occupied far enough away from real society problems such as racism, climate change, poverty and so on, to stabilize the status quo. Imagine what would happen if people who can do 80 hour weeks churning through genetic data to generate new insights (or similar for different fields) started working in earnest on evidence driven policy change?<p>I think these roles are more explanatory for the funding of science than the discoveries themselves.
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gsprover 4 years ago
I hope you&#x27;ll forgive me ranting, but it&#x27;s almost exactly a year ago since I left academia (was a postdoc), and I&#x27;m feeling very down about it and need to let out some thoughts.<p>First the positives: academia has some amazing qualities. If you &quot;make it&quot; (or, alternatively, until you &quot;fail&quot; and drop out) you&#x27;ll spend most of your time working on problems that you are truly passionate about. The kind of problems that you can&#x27;t stop grinding over in the back of your head anyway. You get peace and quiet and a paycheck to sit and work on those all day. To me, doing this for life is an absolute dream!! Maybe a student two help you out. And then you get to travel the world and speak to other people who are equally passionate about this or similar problems.<p>Yes there&#x27;s teaching too. But unless you hate that, it&#x27;s not a big downside. I for one enjoyed it. I&#x27;ve heard horror stories of the american teaching burden though, so maybe it&#x27;s different if there&#x27;s too much of it. And yes there&#x27;s grant application pressure. Maybe I speak from too European a perspective, but I absolutely loved almost every week (every day would be an overstatement) of my 4 years as a postdoc. Every day I miss it.<p>But the instability was killing me. I had the kindest most wonderful boss who shielded me from most of it, and in the end gave me 4 years of peace and quiet, and would have helped me go anywhere next. But I couldn&#x27;t take the repeated uprooting. I wasn&#x27;t good enough for a permanent position yet, or rather - not good enough for one in a place I could possibly imagine living - and forced uprootings crush my mental state.<p>So I gave up.<p>I don&#x27;t wanna sound bitter. Hats off to those who make it. Truly! But the system has become so selective for a few &quot;types&quot; that I worry about its health:<p>- Incredibly bright people. This is obviously good.<p>- Incredibly hard working people. This is good, to a point. Not if the norm becomes giving up your life.<p>- People who&#x27;ll accept any terms. Not good, this is a slow march towards serfdom.<p>- People who are fine with complete instability. I think academia is missing out on a lot by selecting for these.<p>Rant over :-(
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flobosgover 4 years ago
I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying &quot;You have a PhD&quot; in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.
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j7akeover 4 years ago
I think the academic path should be compared as analogous to other “creatives” paths (eg writer, musician, artists), although probably less extreme.<p>People continue to do it because of the ownership of the work, the nearly unlimited potential upside from discovery, and the ability to build on serendipitous discoveries into your own portfolio.<p>The downside is being stuck in a bad situation in academia can be psychologically damaging and difficult to recover from.
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cftover 4 years ago
When I was a postdoc at Stanford i simply stopped showing up at the department after 9 months. The chairman later told me that i was the first one in the entire history of the department to have done that. By the way there was absolutely no pressure; they kept paying me and in fact by mistake they raised my salary to $10,000 a month. Then they called me from the payroll office to ask if I would voluntarily return it and I said yes. I did get very depressed though and I became acquainted with all night cashiers in the Menlo Park Safeway that was then open 24 hours.
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yodsanklaiover 4 years ago
&gt; Long hours and a lack of job security, combined with workplace bullying and discrimination, are forcing many to consider leaving science<p>I&#x27;ve never encountered any form of bullying or discrimination in my 15 years academic career (in three different countries).<p>What I witnessed a few times though where post-docs that just got disinterested in their work and unproductive for months. It&#x27;s not uncommon for post-docs spending months looking for their next job, and usually, their advisors are fine with that. They understand well the difficulties of their students or post-docs.<p>Academia is hard because it&#x27;s extremely competitive, not because professors are some kind of bullies harassing their students. I&#x27;m certain it exists but it&#x27;s far from the norm.<p>It&#x27;s competitive because you&#x27;re competing with the whole world, and there are some people out there who are much smarter than you. And you are constantly reminded of this fact, when you go to a conference (or because you don&#x27;t get to go because your paper isn&#x27;t accepted), when you read your colleague&#x27;s paper and so on. I&#x27;ve worked with well-known people (including a Turing award recipient), and even them were insecure at times.<p>And of course, it&#x27;s hard because you don&#x27;t know if you&#x27;ll find a job after your current post-doc. The more average you are, the more insecurity, the harder it gets.
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ebg13over 4 years ago
Postgraduate student depression and suicidality is at horrifying proportions. The universities don&#x27;t care. No one cares. Academia is super fucked and super fucked up, and it just keeps marching onward with blindfold on and fingers in ears, yelling &quot;LA LA LA LA&quot; as loud as possible.<p>Academic positions are basically gone. Whatever didn&#x27;t vanish completely after the 2009 recession is definitely gone now. Universities continue to purge full professorship as a possibility and continue to shovel more work for less pay onto adjuncts and graduate students making less than minimum wage. And then they put on a big smile for the kids and say &quot;One day you will be a college professor. Look how nice it is. You should join us.&quot; A huge lie. A huge malicious pyramid scheme of a scam. Every program churns out PhDs by the dozens every year. Which academic positions are they going to fill? Which of their advisors are retiring? There aren&#x27;t any positions. Nobody is retiring.<p>And if you think that _science_ is bad, try a non-science field. There&#x27;s lots of machines being built out there in the world. There&#x27;s not a lot of people these days giving enough shits to pay historians.<p>I can&#x27;t think of any other area where it&#x27;s the _norm_ to need a support group to not quit or kill yourself because a fortress of gold has gaslit you into a deathmarch toward a tiny-fraction-of-a-percent chance of success.
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supernova87aover 4 years ago
I mean, isn&#x27;t it clear, ever since the bulk creation &#x2F; funding of so many colleges (and faculty positions) pre + post WW2, the US faculty job market has been on a decline ever since -- (that is, from the average postdoc&#x27;s point of view of success % when seeking a faculty position).<p>It is structurally not a growing, dynamic market where you&#x27;re going to have an easy time. I would call it stagnant, or in the worst case, cutthroat.<p>You do understand right, that the faculty system relies on a pyramid of people entering and leaving the system? And only a certain fraction getting to the top, and people having to vacate the top of the pyramid for anyone else to get there? (for stable, or in other words, stagnant fields)<p>When the US was in a college-building phase (funded by economic stimulus &#x2F; public programs), all these posts were new and empty, waiting to be filled. So it enabled a generation of new professors to fill those ranks. As that became stable, now instead of a fresh pyramid you fill with eager people (who think that&#x27;s still how easy it is), you have grad students and postdocs seeing who can outlast each other (or publish more) to get to the top through attrition or publishing prowess.<p>Certain fields, let&#x27;s say, pure math, or history, until a professor retires or dies, there&#x27;s just no spot for the people below even to compete for. That&#x27;s why you see people going to Asia, Middle East, etc. where the new money and universities are. Follow the money. I mean this is pure population pyramid, demographic stuff that you can predict. You almost don&#x27;t even need to know the student&#x27;s thesis topic to say what chance he&#x2F;she has of becoming a professor.<p>Joining the climb up the ladder in a generally stable pyramid -- it&#x27;s not going to end well for the bulk majority, or be enjoyable while you do it. <i>Especially if you have visible proof of friend, etc. following much easier paths.</i>
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newtonfractalover 4 years ago
Related link I wish I’d seen before starting in academia - What you need to know before considering a PhD [<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fast.ai&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;27&#x2F;grad-school&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.fast.ai&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;27&#x2F;grad-school&#x2F;</a>]<p>I especially like the point made about toxic grad schools being worse than other toxic jobs. Post docs are slightly better that way, with shorter time commitments but I suppose it adds to career uncertainty.
bransonfover 4 years ago
Serious question:<p>Why don’t they leave?<p>I’m not saying that they should, or that conditions shouldn’t improve, but if academia is that stressful to you, why stick with it? The only potential outcomes sticking with it are that you will fail later on, or you will fill a role with an increasing amount of stressors.
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LockAndLolover 4 years ago
The people expanding our scientific understanding of the world being undervalued by society and institutions is the epitome of our current state. We&#x27;re burning out our engines and slowing down innovation... for what?<p>Can any academics or postdocs express what they believe should change to improve their situations?
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Melchizedekover 4 years ago
This will (like several other factors in society) function like a form of reverse eugenics, where people way above average in intelligence (high heritability) and conscientiousness (moderate heritability) are prevented from having children, or start having them so late that they will not have many.
jbaberover 4 years ago
Reminds me of this classic letter to a post-doc:<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chemistry-blog.com&#x2F;2010&#x2F;06&#x2F;22&#x2F;something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.chemistry-blog.com&#x2F;2010&#x2F;06&#x2F;22&#x2F;something-deeply-wr...</a>