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Ask HN: Feel like I'm being lowballed by founders. Where do I go from here?

5 pointsby desideratumover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m employee #4 at a pre-seed startup. Their main offering is a digital continous improvement solution targeting large corps. Employees #1-3 are all app developers. Significant projected revenue for the company revolves around the mass collection, processing, and analytics of data from their application.<p>I joined after dropping out from my PhD as the only ML-data engineer and to own the development of that product space. I&#x27;ve completed a large (~0.7M) govt. grant in the first few months of working here to support development of my product with collaboration from academics from my alma-mater, and began hiring engineers for this project.<p>I&#x27;m currently earning ~£22k (UK, non-London) and they&#x27;ve just offered me 0.1% in options (EMI scheme). They (founders) specifically advised against sharing details of options with other employees but I&#x27;ve discovered they&#x27;ve lowballed the lead frontend engineer also (&lt;0.5%). They further advised that I can ask for excess of 1% in 12 months if I can take on tech lead responsibilities, but this isn&#x27;t in writing and the process for this is completely opaque to me.<p>Is it worth sticking around here? How can I negotiate a (much) higher total compensation for myself?

6 comments

PragmaticPulpover 4 years ago
&gt; Is it worth sticking around here?<p>No. Assuming this is a full-time position in the United States, $22K is well below even internship compensation.<p>You have many more job opportunities available to you. You need to put yourself out there and find them.<p>Prepare your resume <i>today</i>. Start applying. You&#x27;re not obligated to accept the other jobs, but you&#x27;ll never know unless you put yourself out there. Don&#x27;t delay this.<p>&gt; How can I negotiate a (much) higher total compensation for myself?<p>Interview at other companies. Secure job offers with higher pay. Accept the job offer you like the most.<p>If you really want to stay for some reason, you could use the competing offers to try to renegotiate with your current company. However, make sure you have good reason to stay. It&#x27;s difficult to rebuild a relationship like this once you&#x27;ve reached the point of feeling cheated by the founders.<p>&gt; but I&#x27;ve discovered they&#x27;ve lowballed the lead frontend engineer also (&lt;0.5%)<p>If the lead frontend engineer is receiving a market-rate salary, getting 0.5% in options isn&#x27;t actually a lowball.<p>The unfortunate reality of startup equity is that there isn&#x27;t much to go around to non-founders who are collecting salaries. Offers above the 1-2% range are usually reserved for VP-level positions and higher. Equity in the 10%+ range is only really seen for cofounders, once you factor in seed stage funding.
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davismwflover 4 years ago
With the assumption that you are in the US&#x2F;UK&#x2F;Canada etc.<p>This is a no to sticking around, the founders are abusing the team and they will fail unless they quickly change. Leave and get a fair compensation for another position, maybe you leaving with valid reasons will prompt them to realize they need to do better.<p>I don&#x27;t generally say it as black and white as that simply because usually there is a lot of grey area, but in this case (based on your statements) even if you have never held a position but have a masters you are so vastly underpaid and undervalued that this is abusive treatment by the founders, pre-seed or not. If they can&#x27;t afford people, they have to be more creative and forthright with people, right now they are being abusive, unfair and under handed by not having things documented in writing (even in basic English without the legalese). There are many ways they can entice people fairly and everyone takes some risk but also has a large upside potential, 0.1% pre-seed after dilution is essentially worthless even if the company makes it (which we all know the stats are slim). From what you wrote it does not appear they are not doing this properly and so you need to find a place that will.<p>IMO, regardless of startup size, a salary less then 50% of fair market value should never be tolerated unless you have a significant equity position (that after dilution still gives you a solid exit) and have everything in writing -- even then I&#x27;d argue for that low of comp you should be a founder or #1 or #2 employee and it should be in writing on when your salary will change, to what it will be and clear milestones with as little grey as possible.<p>Let me be clear, it is hard as hell to be a founder and get people on board and to pay them etc, I know I&#x27;ve done it more than a few times and most times without taking outside investments, and as a founder I sometimes took no pay for extended periods while eating&#x2F;living poorly so I could pay someone else. So I am sensitive to their plight and struggles. However, that doesn&#x27;t give founders a blank check to be douchebags to other people and promise essentially worthless equity positions with a severely below market salary. And to be clear, don&#x27;t let them argue that as founders they are taking minimum wage so you should be &quot;happy&quot; to get more (seen that pulled, or where they just try to make you feel guilty), they are the founders with the bulk of the equity they should be the lowest paid early on.
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aaronrobinsonover 4 years ago
For such an early stage and low salary you should be looking at a minimum of 5-10%. 0.1% is common when you come in after a couple of decent funding rounds and then it’s based more around a multiple of your salary. I’d walk away. Don’t get emotionally invested in something where your contribution isn’t respected.
p0dover 4 years ago
You nailed it when you said, &quot;I&#x27;m employee&quot;. During my career I got confused a few times about my role and thought my status was more important that it was. You either start something or work for the someone who started something (or in rare cases you are a genius the company relies on).<p>I would speculate that if you say you are leaving you will be offered a pay increase. However there is a risk playing the leave card. Some managers will start thinking about your replacement, even if you stay.<p>In my experience though founders think their company is the best thing since sliced bread and don&#x27;t like people to leave. So be bold if you can afford to lose the job.
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gus_massaover 4 years ago
&gt; <i>I&#x27;ve completed a large (~0.7M) govt. grant</i><p>I didn&#x27;t understand this part.<p>&gt; <i>development of my product</i><p>You are an employee. It is not your product. The company owns the product. (Have you signed any paperwork?)<p>&gt; <i>but this isn&#x27;t in writing</i><p>A verbal contract isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. (They are actually enforceable sometimes, but it is much more difficult than a written contract.)<p>As PragmaticPulp says in a sibling comment, prepare your resume today and start applying.
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PaulHouleover 4 years ago
You are being robbed. My experience is that you just can&#x27;t get people like that to listen so forget loyalty and voice and head to the exit.