This led me down a Wikipedia hole where I learned about John B. Calhoun’s experiments with mice - <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experiments" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_B._Calhoun#Mouse_experi...</a>
Very interesting - once the “mouse universe” reached a high population density, it descended into violence and chaos, which was succeeded by massive behavioral changes across the entire population - male mice became introverted, ceased fighting and attempting to reproduce, and simply ate, drank, slept and groomed themselves until the population collapsed.
Man, sharing this link in January 2021 is just brutal :D<p>It made me wonder though, who here legitimately thinks their society is nearing collapse? Which society? By which measures are you evaluating the situation?<p>Do you feel you have any control over the collapse, or a participation mandate at any level? How much does it seem to parallel your current personal life situation? Are things similarly chaotic, or do you find yourself at peace?<p>Just curious.
I saw an intriguing comment yesterday on here about how the Extreme Ultra Violet Lithography machines that are producing our cutting edge processors are "the greatest achievement of science and technology on the planet"[1]. I can believe it. And it's fascinating how that affects geopolitics, much as other science and technology has in the past (the printing press, nuclear energy, etc)<p>I'm not OP, but why I think this Wikipedia article is relevant is because the more I actually learn about the world and history the more I begin to wonder whether in fact _mercenarism_ not technology is the defining trait of modern civilisation (and by extension I wonder about whether this is true for HN as a whole too). The great leaps were made by traders, rather than scientists, those willing to exploit and enslave rather than innovate and create. Of course they feed each other, think of the Marine Chronometer[2]. But if indeed mercenerism is the defining characteristic then it makes a lot more sense to think about societal collapse, because the fundamental design of the West, like many other civilisations, is based on logistical exploitation, which, unlike technological innovation, is fundamentally unsustainable.<p>And as a hacker, to me, such a design flaw cannot be patched away. Not that I advocate surrender, but rather, how do we, as hackers, minimise the impending destruction of a failing system? I wonder if one of the first steps is to stop wasting energy on any efforts based on the idea that we can fix this? Rather how can we, if it is even possible, gracefully manage the collapse?<p>1. <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25361028" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25361028</a><p>2. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_chronometer</a>
There's a great podcast / Youtube series called "Fall of Civilizations" that documents some of these collapses and why they happened: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT6Y5JJPKe_JDMivpKgVXew" rel="nofollow">https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT6Y5JJPKe_JDMivpKgVXew</a>
I wonder if I am an outlier here (physically the US) and think society is not collapsing, but diversifying. Also, given the state of the environment, national debt, employment prospects for many in the generations proceding me, and civic unrest, it seems prudent that we evaluate our socioeconomic activities.
"In a speech to Roman nobles, the Emperor expressed his pressing concern over the low birthrates of the Romans elite. He said that freed slaves had been granted citizenship and Roman allies given seats government to increase the power and prosperity of Rome, yet the "original stock" was not replacing themselves, leaving the task to foreigners.[66] Roman poet Ovid shared the same observation."<p>Well well. It's truly remarkable to see how our current laws and religious texts have roots in history.
Fascinating. This quote from Toynbee in the section on decay is is particularly eerie given current events in the United States:<p><i>First the Dominant Minority attempts to hold by force - against all right and reason - a position of inherited privilege which it has ceased to merit; and then the Proletariat repays injustice with resentment, fear with hate, and violence with violence when it executes its acts of secession. Yet the whole movement ends in positive acts of creation - and this on the part of all the actors in the tragedy of disintegration. The Dominant Minority creates a universal state, the Internal Proletariat a universal church, and the External Proletariat a bevy of barbarian war-bands.</i><p>I am certain that Trump's efforts to retain power will fail. Unfortunately he has laid the groundwork for someone competent to seize power. It feels like only a matter of time.
Let me recommend the book - The Fate of Rome by Kyle Harper (2020)- about how climate change and pandemies slowly sapped strength of Roman Empire..<p>From Antonine Plague to Plague of Justinian and from Roman Climate Optimum to Late Antiquity Ice Age.<p>[2] - <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Warm_Period" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Warm_Period</a><p>[3] - <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Antique_Little_Ice_Age" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Antique_Little_Ice_Age</a><p>[1] - <a href="https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34427005-the-fate-of-rome" rel="nofollow">https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/34427005-the-fate-of-rom...</a>
I don't think the British Empire is a good example. It has divested/separated areas under its influence without any sort of societal collapse affecting neither the individual former piece of the Empire, nor Britain itself.
A very interesting (though I think it’s impossible to proof or refute) read related to this: <a href="https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/" rel="nofollow">https://www.julianjaynes.org/resources/books/ooc/</a><p>I learned about it while reading Dawkins’ “The God Delusion,” and since then, Jaynes and Hofstadter have been the biggest influences on my personal philosophy.