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Signal community: Reminder: Please be nice

1149 pointsby decryptover 4 years ago

61 comments

meetups323over 4 years ago
I maintain a very popular piece of FOSS software as my full time job (you&#x27;ve all heard of it, many of you use it).<p>Easily the worst part of the job is toxic users who hop on to issues demanding you implement them immediately and belittling your planning ability. Worse when you were planning on implementing it soon anyways, but now if you do it&#x27;s &quot;rewarding&quot; their behaviour (in their eyes at least), and they become invigorated to go and spread their toxicity even further. Alternatively, you can hold off on implementing it until things cool down, but then all the nice users who have been patiently waiting get screwed.<p>I&#x27;m forever grateful that I actually get FAANG salary to do this -- I wouldn&#x27;t keep it up if I was getting the little-to-noting many FOSS contributors get.
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Daniel_skover 4 years ago
&quot;Running a successful open source project is just Good Will Hunting in reverse, where you start out as a respected genius and end up being a janitor who gets into fights&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;cra&#x2F;status&#x2F;1306694315624796160" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;cra&#x2F;status&#x2F;1306694315624796160</a>
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ve55over 4 years ago
Signal is a treasure that shows us that more things than just Wikipedia can occupy the holy trio of Good, Popular, and Free, all at the same time (I would include having a user-aligned profit model such as donations instead of surveillance under Free&#x2F;Good).<p>I hope that with all of these new users they are free to continue to provide their service for free, and even more so, that they may inspire us to build a better future with similar apps in other domains. They may definitely have some growing pains and tough moments ahead of them, but I&#x27;m ecstatic to see e2e getting so popular and users finally seeing the value in these kinds of things (after, for what seemed like a decade, getting anyone to care seemed impossible).
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Dumblydorrover 4 years ago
Just be nice, is that hard? Well yes, it can be extremely hard for some who are stuck reentering a negative modality constantly.<p>If you struggle with impulsive thoughts, anger, rudeness, you may be in need of a change in your ways, habits, and mental health. Try diet, exercise, and clean living to help your body feel right, but also meditate and allow your skill of executive function to take over. This secretary of the mind will stop you in your tracks, reallocating attention into better pursuits.<p>I think the key is decoupling thoughts from behaviors. It&#x27;s one thing to think, &quot;implement this basic feature already you freshman noob.&quot; It&#x27;s another to let that thought pass away, without typing or saying anything.<p>To practice this, meditation is a good start. It teaches the simple noticing of thoughts, and practices not acting on them. And don&#x27;t beat yourself up btw, if I get mean thoughts, I just laugh it off and notice the primates&#x27; mind within me. We are running aggressive chimp software 2.0, it&#x27;s not very refined! You can patch it with meditation and healthy living.
supernova87aover 4 years ago
I mean, if everyone were well behaved in life and would just &quot;be nice&quot;, there would be no need for laws, or police, or moderators.<p>I think everyone is realizing that software&#x2F;tech doesn&#x27;t magically solve fundamental human dynamics, no matter how much it fixes other problems. And that you need to have non-negligible resources dedicated to policing&#x2F;enforcing rules so that we can have nice things.<p>And be grateful for those who do.<p>There is a world out there ready to mess up your carefully built shit, by maliciousness, honest inadvertence, people not reading the directions, people learning for the first time and making mistakes, or just sheer incompetence, or indifference.
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MrBuddyCasinoover 4 years ago
People will exploit and abuse you, knowingly or unknowingly. The amount of idiots and assholes will never go to zero. Never. The good news is that there are usually mechanisms to stop them.<p>1) If people aren&#x27;t being respectful, block them.<p>2) If they put little effort into bug reports&#x2F;feature requests and are not respectful of your free time - close the issue, link to a generic explanation why.<p>3) If you are not being compensated and the project burns you out: stop doing it.<p>There is usually nobody else who can or will do these things for you. Grow a spine, have self respect, value your time, learn from the experience.
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RachelFover 4 years ago
We&#x27;ve found the same thing with other software we make. The free users and those charitable organizations and schools we give free licenses to, are the least &quot;nice&quot; in their technical support queries. Odd that.
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logicchopover 4 years ago
I think it&#x27;s important to point out that &quot;being nice&quot; also involves making room for people that might come across as rude, or that have difficulty expressing themselves in a polite way, or that are just speaking directly. I often get accused of being rude in my writing because I am direct. I&#x27;ve known lots of people (especially devs) that don&#x27;t really understand that their phrasing might be interpreted as rude. If someone is clearly just lobbing insults, that&#x27;s one thing, but we also have obligations to be charitable when interpreting others, and that charity often involves couching their expression as an attempt at being &quot;politely informative.&quot; I would also say: unless it&#x27;s flagrant, learn to deal with it. It&#x27;s important to be able to deal with people, and that involves dealing with unhappy people, people who are stressed or at wits end, and so on. It goes both ways.
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newscrackerover 4 years ago
I strongly recommend being kind and polite, avoiding personal attacks, in all spaces.<p>&gt; “How can you write a piece of software that doesn’t do y?”. “It’s 2021 and you still can’t make a program do z, how pathetic”<p>Leaving aside the attack with “how pathetic”, I can understand these sentiments from people who have been following the developments (or lack of it) with Signal for several years. That the main developers brush aside requests that are important for most people or ignore them and don’t respond on those would make it quite frustrating for the users who care enough to write.<p>Signal could do a lot better in connecting with the community of users who care to connect. Remember that the users have a stake in this, so dismissing their feedback as “this is free, don’t ask for more” is actually condescending. Without users and users who evangelize the product in their circles, no such project can expand or thrive.<p>Signal team, you could also practice being nicer and more attentive.
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TaylorAlexanderover 4 years ago
I’m curious what the Hacker News crowd thinks of the IME* issue Naomi Wu has been trying to highlight lately.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;realsexycyborg&#x2F;status&#x2F;1349167171004289025?s=21" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;realsexycyborg&#x2F;status&#x2F;134916717100428902...</a><p>Basically Signal doesn’t clarify to users that their keyboard is quite possibly spying on them, rendering all of Signals security moot if you’re trying to steer clear of spying governments. In practice this means that Signal is completely owned for most users in China if they use their phone as Chinese users normally do.<p>I keep hearing people say “use signal, it’s secure” and very few people also say “and the keyboard may render all of that security useless”. Thoughts? Naomi Wu has expressed recently that she feels totally ignored in this issue. Almost as if Signal doesn’t want to discuss it.<p>* Input Method Editor
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ChrisMarshallNYover 4 years ago
I was the original architect (but no longer maintain) a fairly ambitious FOSS project that is the worldwide standard for a very particular demographic.<p>That demographic is notorious for a propensity to be “not nice.”<p>I kept it going for a decade, sometimes receiving rather...<i>strident</i>...”feedback.” I was called a tyrant (and worse) for refusing to deviate from its Core Mission, in order to make it easier for certain individuals to use in narrow contexts (that type of request is quite common, if you manage a general-purpose infrastructure project).<p>I learned (slowly) to be polite and respectful in my responses, even when approached in an abusive manner. The times I “hit back” (I’m good at that) were quite self-destructive, and did not do the project any favors.<p>My tyranny paid off, but it took a while. The project has been handed over to a team of really sharp folks that will, hopefully, never have to deal with the kind of crap I put up with. They will get a great deal of positive feedback, and very little of the asinine, juvenile garbage I got. That makes me happy. They don’t deserve it, and I’m grateful they took it over, making it much better than I ever could.<p>It was worth it. If I had to do it all over again, I would (but I’m glad I don’t have to). I’m a tough, stubborn old coot that can take it, and I knew what I was getting into, when I started (I’m quite familiar with the demographic). Even so, there were a number of times I wanted to bin the project and walk away. I’m glad I didn’t (and there’s many thousands of people that are glad I didn’t, but don’t know it).<p>Sometimes, we do stuff for reasons other than money, property, and prestige.
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chalstover 4 years ago
Usenet had killfiles, Wikipedia has IP bans for problem editors. Issue trackers need something similar.
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intendedover 4 years ago
Signal’s Eternal September?
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kumarswover 4 years ago
Is this a typical outcome of an open-source project that gains widespread popularity? It&#x27;s a trend that popular projects get criticism that is too personal. This is a tricky problem. The obvious answer is to be anonymous on GitHub and not care when complaints get too shrill. This hurts the professional value of being an open-source contributor. How to achieve a balance between this and the need to insulate oneself from haters in the (unlikely) case your open-source project hits the big time?<p>I recall a similar story, I think it was the guy who wrote the Python library for the Raspberry Pi GPIO pins. In his case, I think he used his main email for commits and that was included by the Debian package maintainers who refused to change it.
lightgreenover 4 years ago
While people should be nice, maybe it&#x27;s time for Signal to hire a professional community manager. If developers do support on such forums (who else would be disappointed by unilateral demands?), it is a productivity killer.<p>Telegram has such person for full time, I follow them on Twitter, and their responses are usually hilarious <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;telegram&#x2F;with_replies" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;telegram&#x2F;with_replies</a><p>For example, when people demand something from Telegram, their response is usually brainless &quot;I&#x27;ll pass that to developers&quot; or something slightly more witty like &quot;it&#x27;s planned for 2301, watch for updates&quot;. Everybody&#x27;s happy.
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vital_beachover 4 years ago
I&#x27;m in the unique position to interact with clients from the 3 digit to 8 digit ARR range, and it&#x27;s so hard managing expectations across the group. All of these clients are massive, it&#x27;s just a matter of what stage of adoption they&#x27;re at with us. More 0s = all hands on deck, two 0s = &quot;I can&#x27;t give you any kind of timeline and may never be able to&quot;. All of this is to say please be kind, it&#x27;s generally not up to the people you&#x27;re yelling at, even if you&#x27;re paying for it.
geuisover 4 years ago
Ok just 2 points, primarily my own opinion.<p>First, I suspect a lot of new Signal users are the Reddit&#x2F;Twitter terror assholes from thedonald.lose and other similar suddenly exposed rock bottoms that have been forced to relocate over the last week or so. Ignore them, ban them, etc. Don’t let ANY of that bit of animated shit pukes that mumble like they’re semi conscious bags of bird shit bother you.<p>2nd point. It’s ok to say no. Proof in point, I’ve been running jsonip.com for 11 years. Service supports many many millions of requests a month. Completely free.<p>I’m lucky, I don’t frequently get any hate mail or “add this new thing asshole” for the service. But any time I have over the last 11 years, I’ve directly told those people to shove it if they’ve been rude or demanding.<p>They’re using my service for free. I’m paying for this out of pocket. Fuck you if you think you can abuse me.<p>Just to round out, since I’m obviously very suave about language and what not, stop being nice. Stop letting a lot of free loaders ruin your day and kill your mood and passion by treating you badly.<p>There is an equivalent to the no shoes, no shirt, no mask policy and retail store has for online stores and OSS projects. If the user&#x2F;customer can’t adhere to extremely basic human decency norms, they don’t get to play. You tell them to fuck off and go away, then move on with helping people that actually give a shit and are nice.
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redsymbolover 4 years ago
A good solution might be an &quot;exponential back-off&quot; temporary ban.<p>In this, an open-source project adopts a policy that the mental health and wellbeing of its developers is a priority, and in particular abusive language from end users is not accepted. Specifically, if a user communicates with such negativity (e.g. commenting this way on a github issue), two things happen:<p>1) That comment is deleted<p>2) That user is prohibited from posting on this project&#x27;s issues for 30 days.<p>That&#x27;s for the first offense. If, after 30 days, the user does something like this again, they are temporarily banned for 60 days. And then 120.<p>You get the idea.<p>If you don&#x27;t like 30 days as a base, then it can be 24 hours, or 90 days, or whatever the project decides is appropriate. Regardless of these or other parameters, this strikes a balance between accepting needed feedback from the community, and &quot;canceling&quot; someone from contributing useful feedback in the future.<p>In fact, I bet you this will have a role in conditioning certain people to communicate in more nurturing and kind ways. A permaban would likely NOT do that, but a short temporary ban that increases on repeat offenses probably will.<p>I am not sure if Github supports this already, or provides some mechanism that could be used by the project maintainers to manually implement it...<p>But if you are developing on any platform where end users sometimes communicate toxically with volunteer developers just trying to make the world a better place, maybe this idea is worth considering.
bachmeierover 4 years ago
&gt; Just scroll past if something isn’t nice or offends you.<p>It&#x27;s easy to dismiss this argument as it&#x27;s obviously weak (it doesn&#x27;t make any sense) but it sure seems to be a popular thing to say. Why do people think their right to act any way they want supercedes the right of others to not have to put up with trolls and jerks? Do these people have social problems, are they legitimately not smart enough to see the problem, or what is it?
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spiznnxover 4 years ago
I think the community forums will have to rapidly evolve to deal with the influx of new users.<p>If you look at successful, very large internet communities, almost none of them look like traditional forums.<p>I think wiki-like features could be important here, so that users can maintain high-quality references to point to during discourse. For example, reddit has subreddit wikis, and stack overflow allows questions to be repeatedly edited by the community.
nooberminover 4 years ago
I feel like this is more a sociological or even philosophical question but why are users like this, in particular for something that is free? Sometimes I wish we were more grateful for things instead of being so damn entitled (about a free service, nonetheless!).<p>That reply that is on the bug report (literally the post about being nice) which accusing the author of needing to &quot;man up&quot; is too on the nose.
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blue-dragonflyover 4 years ago
It works both ways. I&#x27;m not addressing the Signal project in particular, but maintainers of free software projects need to be polite and professional (in words and deeds) as well. Users who take the time to investigate bugs and get involved in fixing them don&#x27;t have &quot;infinite resources to pour down the drain&quot; either. Maintainers presumably derive some value, even if not monetary, from their involvement in these projects. Having more users than they can handle is a problem that comes with the territory of a popular project--and needs a solution just like the more technical ones. (I translate the term &quot;toxic users&quot; as modern-speak for &quot;people who aren&#x27;t exactly aligned with me&quot;.) I often contribute to alpha status free software, so I don&#x27;t always gain reciprocal benefit--but I do like to help others. How many times have you seen an open issue or pull request on a project that isn&#x27;t addressed at all after years? Often, in my experience.<p>Last year, I was working on my free software project, and I heard repeated blasts of a car horn from my driveway. I have advanced arthritis, so it took me a while to get up and go to the door--I wasn&#x27;t expecting anybody. The car drove off before I could get to the door. The next day the same car was in front of my mailbox. The door of the mail box was drooping down. The car stopped on the side of the road, so I had enough time to hobble out and approach it. It was pouring rain--I had my shirt up over my head to keep the water off. I found out it was my new neighbor. She was doing improvements on her home and needed my signature on an HOA document. She said, &quot;I&#x27;m disabled, and I need a favor. Also, I broke your mail box putting the document in it.&quot; I said, &quot;I&#x27;m disabled too&quot;. She laughed, &quot;Oh, I see.&quot;<p>The moral of the story being, Signal, be glad you don&#x27;t have to deal with people who want something from you IRL. :)
highmastdonover 4 years ago
People say: man up. I’d say let’s ignore the toxicity and go about our way. If someone wants to be an asshole, fine by me, but I’m not letting them take my fun out of my life. Therefore it would be good to have a way of hiding stuff that you don’t feel like putting your energy into. Sort of shadow banning but only for yourself.
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tarkin2over 4 years ago
Developing a pleasant community, and developing the skills and environment to deal with angry people who use the project as their punchbag, is more valuable than the code. People who nice, pleasant and diplomatic are gold, and can help shape the community. They’re as valuable as your most skilled coder.
sedatkover 4 years ago
Maybe, there should be a Kickstarter for GitHub issues to prioritize them. You can prioritize them by money put in, and whoever wants their feature IMMEDIATELY, puts their money on it so, necessary resources can get allocated, and the rest can shut up about something not being done.
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Bishop_over 4 years ago
One of the best parts of OSS is that if the maintainers don&#x27;t have the time or the priorities to solve your problem you can fix it yourself and get your change upstream, or fork it. It blows my mind that some people can take OSS for granted.
LockAndLolover 4 years ago
Nice community users: do your part! Don&#x27;t just be a silent majority.<p>Being nice doesn&#x27;t mean being passive. If you see something wrong, make someone aware of it nicely and if they respond badly, flag or report them.<p>Be nice, be active.
whalesaladover 4 years ago
There is a rising tide of hyper vigilance and explosive anger that cannot be escaped these days. I hope everyone can wake up and realize this - to stop it before it becomes the new normal.
worikover 4 years ago
I have had the opposite experience. Carefully filing a bug report, carefully getting data for it, only to get shouted at by the maintainers.<p>Be nice, yes. Both ways.
larodiover 4 years ago
(high) time to start educating children in schools regarding differences in software. preferably as early as primary school. so that every person on this planet better understands what is free, what different types of software licenses do. software and we never ever have to talk again about the offenses taken by people spending free time on software that helps the world spin in a more consistent way...
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0dayzover 4 years ago
Its why I am always extra nice&#x2F;kind to those that report real issues.<p>While have a zero tolerance to anyone being even slightly annoying&#x2F;belligerent.
jkingsberyover 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve come to the conclusion in the past couple years that the world would be a better place if adults were forced to watch Daniel Tiger episodes. So many things it covers (like, how to be kind, how not to over react to bad news, how to give a proper apology or show gratitude) seem like they ought to be simple but turn out to be rare.
buzzertover 4 years ago
What happened with the developer of Mastodon?
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ornornorover 4 years ago
FWIW I’m very grateful to all the people who work on FOSS software. I probably wouldn’t be a software developer if it wasn’t for these tools and libraries. I often wonder how they all find the energy do it, I know I wouldn’t be able to contribute more than the tiny PRs or issues I’ve submitted over the years.
RedCometover 4 years ago
Let&#x27;s not pretend this just some guy&#x27;s hobby project. They&#x27;ve received millions of dollars in funding, more than many small businesses make a year.
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earth2marsover 4 years ago
what if the competition is making these comments intentionally to fiddle with FOSS developers? People need to be strong and above internet comments
andrew_over 4 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;liberamanifesto.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;liberamanifesto.com&#x2F;</a>
PhantomBKBover 4 years ago
if someone starts being toxic to me, I&#x27;ll just let them know they have access to the source code like everyone else and that they are free to open a pull request if they wish to and close the thread. And that&#x27;s the end of that.<p>If someone asks why, just tell them you don&#x27;t entertain any level of toxicity.
0800LUCASover 4 years ago
The entitlement those people have is ridiculous. They are literally not paying anything for the service and come in demanding things.<p>It&#x27;s funny that all these people moving away from WhatsApp (for no good reason, IMO. Facebook can&#x27;t read your private or group messages anyways thanks to e2e) and think the free app they downloaded will have the same level of features as the one funded by a multi-billion company.<p>Get real.
chrisweeklyover 4 years ago
I think the word &quot;kind&quot; is more appropriate here than &quot;nice&quot;. Being nice is shallow (surface-level, appearances, civility, tolerance...), whereas kindness is profound (empathy, connection, harmony, respect). The former is certainly better than nothing, but the latter is transformative and radically more powerful.
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chephover 4 years ago
Not sure what people see in Signal. Having the client be open source without having the infrastructure decentralized is pretty pointless and just sets it up for failing again when the organization controlling the central infrastructure starts acting poorly.<p>But that being said, if you don&#x27;t like Signal, just don&#x27;t use it.
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timviseeover 4 years ago
This is funny. Because WhatsApp seems to be slow to the party with most features.
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thien123over 4 years ago
I completely agree, please behave politely
exabrialover 4 years ago
Just want to say thank you!
clever_kingover 4 years ago
It is like codecademy forums. I am talking of UI I think creator is in hurry for launching website.
scaramangaover 4 years ago
I wonder if there might be any connection between a sudden rise in narcissistic personalities who feel a great sense of entitlement arriving on Signal forums and Trump-supporting lunatics who are fleeing social media sites which are now closing the barn-door after their horse has bolted :)
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morphicproover 4 years ago
Nothing to do with the uptick of trump supports coming to the platform...
cottsakover 4 years ago
Well said.
picturover 4 years ago
excessive and unnecessary emotional
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dbg31415over 4 years ago
It&#x27;s not just &quot;being nice to devs&quot; -- open source communities are utter shit for everyone.<p>My experience working on open-source projects, from a Product Manger perspective, is it sucks too.<p>To get it right, modern software takes a team. Everything from BAs, UX designers, QA, DevOps, etc.<p>But the projects aren&#x27;t treated like a real project. Often it&#x27;s a dev doing something on their own... often again it&#x27;s to get away from the &quot;team organizational structure&quot; and just do something on their own. They don&#x27;t get paid for it, they&#x27;re just out to &quot;hobby build&quot; so why not play a bit. Test out some ideas.<p>But inevitably it&#x27;s shit. They don&#x27;t make decisions based on what&#x27;s good for the customer (and the customers don&#x27;t pay), they make decisions based on, &quot;Do I have 20 hours to put in to get this right, or do I want to ignore the edge cases and just do the quick and dirty 30 second solution so I can move on to the next task I find fun?&quot;<p>And the quality suffers. And that&#x27;s OK, except the expectations are all set so high. &quot;This is the open-source version of Microsoft Office!&quot; or &quot;This is a peer-to-peer replacement for Facebook!&quot; and when a user hears that, and then goes to use it... and finds their expectations were totally mis-set... oof. They&#x27;re pissy. &quot;I put in all this time thinking it would do whatever basic thing Microsoft Office has done for 20 years... and it didn&#x27;t do it... and I wasted a day trying... wasted a day looking at obsolete &#x2F; poorly done documentation... and now I&#x27;m mad too!&quot; Expectations need to be set better, and they never are. Everyone over promises based on a vision, not based on actual capabilities.<p>And when a QA person, or a product manager, volunteers to help... then herding devs, who &quot;own&quot; the project into best practices or a team-based workflow becomes a nightmare. Everyone is working on their own version of &quot;off hours&quot; on the project -- no way to sync a 9 to 5 schedule of any sort. Team meetings never happen; maybe you get together on Slack or something, but like very rare anyone is able to be like, &quot;Hey let&#x27;s all go bond and get a beer...&quot; As a &quot;leader&quot; you can&#x27;t enforce best practices -- and that&#x27;s frustrating for everyone as the devs started the project to get away from management, and management gets burnt out trying to manage devs who don&#x27;t want managers... Corners are cut, opportunities to bring in other talent are squandered because it&#x27;s all about ego.<p>Long enough rant, but like... TL;DR: Open Source sucks. If you&#x27;re gonna build something, start with a business plan. Make enough money to hire BAs to gather requirements, UX designers to build good flows, devs to build it, QAs to test it, managers to wear chinos, and support staff to handle the onslaught of shitty annoyed customers. And guess what, to make all this work... you&#x27;ll need some sales guys too. Make it a business, you&#x27;ll be a lot happier in the end. Fundamentally, if you&#x27;re good at something... why are you giving it away for free?<p>Be Nice, but you can&#x27;t really un-ring this bell. Fire is hot. Water is wet. The internet is mean. And working on Open Source projects is pretty much universally horrible.
vernieover 4 years ago
Elon stans blew up the spot.
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Markoffover 4 years ago
TLDR don&#x27;t ask devs&#x2F;managers to do anything, they are just small company living of 50M donation and other donations<p>I mean FFS Signal didn&#x27;t even allowed until 2018 or 2019 to select more than one picture to share and people asked about it for years. How long it took Mozilla to implement pull down to refresh on mobile version until 2020, 5+ years?<p>These devs WANT their product to fail, they don&#x27;t want success, they don&#x27;t want users, they just wanna get their weekly money and play and implement useless features nobody asked for. This is what happens with horrible management in Mozilla with Firefox going now extinct, Signal (pretty much same as Firefox not growing ant user base, even the uptick in recent days in molecule (drop would be overestimate) in Whatsapp ocean) and Wikipedia which is also spending money on projects completely unrelated to Wikipedia site, yet they dare every year ask users for donations to keep Wikipedia running without ads, while reality is they have money for years to run and if they didn&#x27;t waste them on stupid things even longer.
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PIKALover 4 years ago
The guy who runs signal said that he believes science isn’t about discovering truth. I still can’t wrap my head around it.
senectus1over 4 years ago
&quot;Social media made you all way too comfortable with disrespecting people and not getting punched in the face for it.&quot; – Mike Tyson<p>Feels very much like an aphorism for life these days
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eyelidlessnessover 4 years ago
I guess yet another platform is censoring its users &#x2F;s<p>JK please be nice y’all
grrrrrrreatover 4 years ago
I believe the Signal app should at least have a token fee. It can be donated to the open source community. That would immediately get rid of the freeloaders and their annoyances.
say_it_as_it_isover 4 years ago
The Signal Project&#x27;s greatest vulnerability isn&#x27;t technical but social. Contributors probably work in clean environments and follow special security protocols. Yet, their policies and procedures haven&#x27;t considered emotional compromise by hostile attackers. It&#x27;s a social hack, essentially. If any group wants to shut down the Signal Project, all they need to do is agitate overworked contributors in message forums.
ddevaultover 4 years ago
Bleh. I don&#x27;t really appreciate this.<p>User entitlement and harassment are major problems in FOSS, and I don&#x27;t endorse it, even for Signal. But, coming from Signal in particular, this seems pretty weak. It almost feels exploitative of the real problem - harassment in FOSS - as an excuse for Signal to make self-serving design decisions at the user&#x27;s expense.<p>Remember that Signal touts itself as a secure communications tool, with endorsements from the likes of Edward Snowden and Bruce Schiener. We should hold them accountable for delivering on that promise, or we risk the real human lives who choose to rely on a flawed tool. Signal has made several design decisions which reduce its ability to address the problem of secure communications, which are conveniently self-serving. When their arguments for these decisions have been debunked, and yet the self-serving designs persist, this is a bad look for Signal. They have chosen to weigh their self-interests against the user&#x27;s security, in a tool <i>designed for securing vulnerable users</i>.<p>Signal is unlike most FOSS projects. They have access to resources which put them among the most privelged projects in terms of ability to execute on changes. The Signal Foundation has a war chest of <i>hundreds of millions of dollars</i>.[0] With a hundred million dollars, a full-time dev team, and 10+ years of development, I think we can expect them to have addressed many of the complaints ten times over, especially when similar systems have been built by volunteer teams in a fraction of the time. Complaints, again, which address ways in which Signal&#x27;s privacy guarantees are lacking, and which Signal conveneintly benefits from leaving unsolved.<p>I don&#x27;t think anyone should be mean or rude to FOSS maintainers, including the Signal contributors. Entitlement and harassment are huge problems in FOSS. However, I do think we should hold Signal accountable for delivering on its privacy promise, being good stewards of vulnerable people, and not compromising on this to chase after their own self-interest.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projects.propublica.org&#x2F;nonprofits&#x2F;display_990&#x2F;824506840&#x2F;12_2019_prefixes_82-86%2F824506840_201812_990_2019121216951146" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;projects.propublica.org&#x2F;nonprofits&#x2F;display_990&#x2F;82450...</a>
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systemvoltageover 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve found the opposite more often than not: Users are nice, but the maintainers are arrogant, unwilling to listen to your issue, close the issue without explanation, disrespect you for bringing something that breaks their product or shows a major flaw, nitpicking until cows come home with PRs, rejecting PRs for no reason at all (screw you for putting all this effort in the PR, right?), god-forbid if you ever talk about any drawbacks or issues with the license. Users are usually nice and other users moderate them if a wild one appears.<p>Can maintainers please be nice?
sneakover 4 years ago
I think it&#x27;s reasonable to critique the fact that OWS has received $100mm and I can&#x27;t even add all my devices to my account (they limit it to 4 or 5, iMessage permits at least 10), or add any other phones (only tablet and desktop can be linked).<p>Being an asshole is unwarranted, but oftentimes one wonders where the money is going with that group. Their production is certainly behind reasonable expectations. We have stickers but not backup, we have some SGX thing for safe server contacts but video calls on desktop are still basically broken&#x2F;unusable.<p>For that kind of cash they should have a lot more to show.
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wombatmobileover 4 years ago
The problem with the directive &quot;Please be nice&quot; is that it&#x27;s unclear what behaviour it prescribes.<p>&quot;Nice&quot; is self-assessed. Almost everybody thinks they are being nice, and fair. Even despots think that when they self assess.<p>It&#x27;s more constructive to have guidelines that tell people specifically what to do and not do.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;newsguidelines.html</a>
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