All the overthinking on motivations here is entertaining :)<p>Disclosure: I'm the Googler that got this funded. The process was roughly:<p>- We have some extra budget at the end of the year! What are some ways we can spend this to get results while giving back to OSS?<p>- Hey PSF, do you have any ideas for what you could do with some funding?<p>- Looks good to me!<p>We're just getting started, but we're working on ways to make this all more sustainable, scalable, and less ad-hoc.<p>If you have ideas here, please reach out! I'm dlorenc at google dot com, or join in the OpenSSF (openssf.org)! We discuss these topics and more in the Securing Critical Projects WG, info here: <a href="https://github.com/ossf/wg-securing-critical-projects/" rel="nofollow">https://github.com/ossf/wg-securing-critical-projects/</a>
I used to try and raise funds for the UK pycon (I was very bad at it) and my biggest takeaway was that most devs were infavour of their company forking over some cash, but "charity" was a tough sell internally. The best results was selling "booths" at the conference. But that had more cost to the sponsor than just the cash we asked for.<p>I have been mulling on Something that makes it less charity - purchasing a "not really support" option. This might be a annual membership, in return for which you get ... early access to annual roadmap pdf. Or an online video from the main devs explaining what they are doing for five minutes (#)<p>What if there existed something to Make the above easy and simply to do - a small foundation who's job is to keep membership rolls and accept payments from companies on behalf of any foss project that signs up (it's something I imagine patreon could offer). They then ensure that the (minimal contract) is adhered to in some manner.<p>(#) Seriously - you could set up a zoom call with 1-5 devs and just hit record once a year - I promise that 99% will see this as unbearable imposition and then talk for two hours. And that's "actionable paid insights into the future of this tool we depend on"<p>So the point being, if your FOSS project gets traction, then sign up to this foss-patreon, tell everyone to click to subscribe and you might might get a sponsor or two.
A lot of people here are accusing Google of embrace, extend, and extinguish, but you have to realize that the incentives here are different from Big Tech's point of view. I'd first like to point out Python is a programming language, not an internet standard or file format. It gets its utility merely from the ability to develop in it, even without an established ecosystem or network effect. The barrier to jump in, or fork off and start over is far lower compared to a browser or file format.<p>So what's in it for Big Tech? Well, in a situation where controlling the technology or suppressing it is difficult due to the low costs of starting over, it is in their best interest to promote the ecosystem rather than control it. When they put in the time, money, and engineers to make it better the return on investment can be massive, because of the help they get from the community to grow, maintain, and keep compatible this core component at less cost than if they did it themselves.<p>The incentives align and benefit everyone, especially if there is a fair governance system mediating between all parties involved. The biggest threat to an open source project is therefore not Big Tech collaboration, but project abandonment and lack of maintenance. I hope this makes everyone a little more optimistic about the direction of open source, especially as companies realize the real value it can have for all involved.
> <i>The Python Steering Council and Python Software Foundation will work together to contract a developer</i><p>This would represent a significant increase in the number of people paid to work on the Python language. Two years ago it was estimated that it only had (the equivalent of) two full-time employees working on it.<p><a href="https://discuss.python.org/t/official-list-of-core-developers/924" rel="nofollow">https://discuss.python.org/t/official-list-of-core-developer...</a>
I wish that Google, Dropbox and Instagram would invest some of this money in Pypy as well - which has been struggling for funds for quite a while.<p>In fact, I have nothing but the deepest of respect for the Devs who built a version of python better than the "officially sanctioned one" without having any financial support.
More money for OSS is always great. Does the PSF employ full time engineers to work on Python? For some reason my mental model of core Python contributors was that they worked at a company which paid them to work mostly on the language, but also on other company specific things. Maybe because that’s how Golang seems to work? IDK, genuinely curious.
This sets a great example for other cloud providers to emulate. I'm really proud of Ewa Jodlowska (PSF Executive Director) and her team for making this happen for the Python community.
Google has in the order of 2^16 software engineers, and it's hungry for more. It makes complete sense to invest and promote projects and programming languages that are heavily used within Google, just to make hiring easier and not having to train everyone up on some obscure stuff.<p>I think that's one of the main reasons they've been pushing stuff like protobuf and gRPC out there: just so that people outside have some exposure when they end up getting hired.
The list of sponsors for the PSP [0] is surprisingly short considering how relatively affordable it is [1]:<p>Visionary: $150k (this is the level created for Google)<p>Sustainability: $90k<p>Maintaining: $60k<p>Contributing: $30k<p>Supporting: $15k<p>Partner: $7.5k<p>Participating: $3.75k<p>Associate: $1.5k<p>[0]: <a href="https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/" rel="nofollow">https://www.python.org/psf/sponsorship/sponsors/</a><p>[1]: <a href="https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/" rel="nofollow">https://www.python.org/sponsors/application/</a>
Here's a suggestion for really funding open source. Donations have produced minuscule results.<p>I think we agree the engineers want their employer to fund open source. It's up to us to establish a new normal: if your company relies on open source technologies, you are expected to give back 0.1% of your revenue to open source projects. That's it.<p>Obviously, the challenge is to go from today's situation, where 0 companies give 0.1% of their revenue to open source foundations, to 1. Maybe an open source startup will be the first. Then a second. Then maybe the Google engineers can pressure Google to join this program. And maybe, just maybe, in 10 years, it's become expected, and most tech companies do it.<p>(a) 0.1% is an example, chosen to be low enough that it doesn't impact the financial results of the company, but large enough that it dwarfs all current donations to open source.<p>(b) if you are worried about the complexity of donating to multiple open source projects, you can imagine that a company could donate its share in one chunk to some open source foundation, which then redistributes among individual open source projects.
> <i>to ensure future funding and volunteer hours are used efficiently and effectively.</i><p>One of the reasons that Python’s development has been so haphazard in the past few years is because the language is primarily developed by volunteers, and the philosophy has been that “you can’t tell volunteers what to work on”. I wonder if something’s going to change there.
"to contract a developer to help CPython determine what needs to take priority through analytical metrics as well as helping CPython understand how backlog can be addressed. The role will also be responsible for surveying maintainers to paint a better landscape of CPython, which will be used to ensure future funding and volunteer hours are used efficiently and effectively."<p>This will turn into a bureaucratic nightmare that increases the power of the existing cabal, most of whom already do not provide any meaningful code contributions.
Guys, let's be honest. Python is DYING. Right here, right now.<p>And this is very sad for me, because in my opinion Python is one of the best scripting languages.
Unfortunately, Mr. Kitchen Hackers, Python has no optimization capabilities. GIL is great for calling C code, but it kills the language.<p>Just shut up and... save this thread. Sooner or later Python will die (Google is pt. 1 in this party). And then you'll shed a few tears and go program in Rust. Sad, but true.
Watch out people! This is has been their long-game-plan all along, they are gonna switch Python to two-space indentation as mandatory. Big Tech Must Be Stopped!
I have seen numerous current and ex Googlers here in HN (in the past) claim that Python is still very prevalent among Google's source code base so this is not at all surprising; was bound to happen at one point.<p>Whether they have any other hidden agendas is pure speculation. Time will tell.<p>It's my opinion that they are simply making sure that a technology they are very heavily invested in doesn't bleed most of its brains out.
Google has one director in the newly created Kotlin Foundation. Just posted the link to their faq here so we don't hijack the discussion here. <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26124054" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26124054</a>
Terry Jones, personifying GvR's brainchild, sits alone.<p>Eric Idle, representing Google, lights far too close to him and begins: "Does your wife Go? Is she a Goer?"[1]<p>(This is, after all, Python thread, no?)<p>[1] <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nudge_Nudge</a>
I am shocked that Google gets so much praise for giving so little, but I’m even more shocked about the hypocrisy of other giants (e.g. Microsoft) Who give what, 60k?
Oh great, I am sure they won't ask for anything in return. Some tele3_etey here, some downloads there, and before you know it..<p>TLDR long rant ... Boiled down. G00gl3 didn't do this selflessly. No praise, no PR, no prepared BS.
While I agree this can only benefit the Python community - I'll reserve judgement as to whether in the long term this proves to be beneficial for the next 3 to 5 years.
Hopefully Google can push the foundation to stop adding bad complicated language features like pattern matching or the walrus operator to the language.
About time. These multi-billion companies exploited open source software and essentially got free labour without having to pay salaries and taxes by cynically promoting open source movement manipulating developers into giving up their hard work for free (exposure). Hopefully the time will come that these companies will make big payouts to all people who where manipulated into contributing into "open source software" (meaning free labour for big corporations).
Google has earned billions thanks to techs like python, and never contributed much to it compared to what it gained.<p>Then suddenly this.<p>Now I'm wondering if MS hiring Guido triggered some reaction to not loose control of what is currently one of the most popular language in the world. Or something else I don't know about.<p>I really want to rejoice. My favorite language gets $ 350k.<p>Yet I can't help but be suspicious of philanthropy coming from big players. I'm getting cynical and always look for a PR, strategic investments or counter attacks.
I'm amazed at the number of people praising Google, which is giving a comparatively small sum to a finished late stage project.<p>Many core developers have given an equivalent of that sum in free labor and receive no praise. On the contrary, a comment in this very thread accuses them of being "white males".<p>Secondly, just "giving money to OSS" is meaningless. It depends on how it is used, who pulls the strings in the background and long term effects on the health of the volunteer part (who has done virtually all of the <i>meaningful</i> work in Python).<p>People cite gcc and the Linux kernel. The situation is quite different. Sponsorship has started early by companies like SuSE, RedHat and Cygnus, who at the time were aligned with the original OSS values.<p>The means of sponsorship was hiring top developers directly, bypassing foundations and councils. The is pretty different from the bureaucratic process that is being envisioned here.
Great, looking forward to migrating to Go once Python 4 is finally shutdown in 2023 ;)<p>But, yeah, ultimately I'm glad any company is contributing to upkeep the language, but the whole "Visionary Sponsors", "Sustainability Sponsors", "Maintaining Sponsors", "Contributing Sponsors", etc distinction between them seems very unnecessary.
Google has ZERO incentive for the python ecosystem to flourish. Remember the breaking 3.0 change came when Guido was an employee there, and go was starting to get mainstream traction.<p>I agree with the embrace-extinguish crowd. The strategy will be to introduce a huge breaking change in the next release.<p>This is a corporation. They don't do things for free. What started out as a "free" browser turned into a vehicle to capture a monopoly on internet video. What makes you think they dont have a long term plan to profit from python?