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Our brutal science system almost cost us a pioneer of mRNA vaccines

568 pointsby dsr12over 4 years ago

33 comments

thayneover 4 years ago
I am a casualty of this. I was originally intending to follow an academic career, until I discovered that my career would be dependent on my ability to secure grants. Something that if I was not bad at (which I think is unlikely), would at least be extremely stressful for me. It isn't the only reason I decided to to switch to being a software engineer, but it is a major reason.
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odyssey7over 4 years ago
Is it counterproductive that we expect researchers to work in universities and become professors? It seems like there should be more outlets for the calling. Our universities are proving to be a bottleneck.<p>I see how there is an often-natural relationship between cultivating knowledge and disseminating it to students. However, we need and have more prospective researchers than universities are willing or able to support.
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weinzierlover 4 years ago
This reminds me if the story of Biontech cofounder and CEO Uğur Şahin. Being an immigrant child in Germany his teacher would no recommend him for high school despite his good grades. Şahin said that he only ended up in high school because a neighbor of his intervened at the school.
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dotdiover 4 years ago
I have a degree in Molecular Biology but I&#x27;ve switched careers very specifically because of what is described in this article: you roll a die, it shows the wrong number and now your whole career is in jeopardy.<p>I just decided that it was not worth putting in years of 80 hour weeks into a system where at some point you can just &quot;disappear&quot; due to reasons very much out of your control.<p>Just writing these paragraphs reminds me how f****** broken academia is.
tchallaover 4 years ago
Here’s a prior article and HN thread on “Managing Academia” and it’s conclusion.<p>&gt; If a job is complex, multifaceted and involves subtle trade-offs, the best approach is to hire good people, pay them the going rate and tell them to do the job to the best of their ability.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14021885" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=14021885</a>
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renewiltordover 4 years ago
Well, it&#x27;s no surprise that people optimize to the metric that&#x27;s available, right? Private labs aim to make production things. Public labs aim to collect grants.<p>The only real hope for modern science is a business with a long-term view. That&#x27;s because that business is only rewarded if their thing works.<p>If there was ever a time when public academics worked for science, it is no longer that today. Now it is occupied by grant vultures. This makes sense since we never rewarded science. We always rewarded a proxy. And in any sphere where you do that, eventually the proxy becomes the target as more sophisticated strategies evolve and each generation of participants gets better at optimizing against the proxy.
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LeanderKover 4 years ago
I have been thinking recently how to reform the science system here in germany, which is somewhat similar to the system in the US. What I think is impossible is to completely eliminate the grant chasing for the early career scientist. It&#x27;s just that there&#x27;s more supply than demand in a lot of sciences and not everyone can make it, if we try to give everyone a grant we end up with grants that are not really paying for anything.<p>What I think would be an improvement would be a different system where there&#x27;s a clear path from grant-based funding to a continuous stream of funding, with different funding levels, where one gets periodically reviewed and demoted&#x2F;continued&#x2F;raised, so your funding does not completely dry up after a few year (I imagined it like the sports leagues, where you play in different levels and depending on your performance you get relegated from the league) and you can really plan long-term. So one can continue the competitiveness and the role of funding bodies&#x2F;institutions where the scientist work at while giving them the ability to plan long-term and maybe pursue more risky ideas.<p>There will always be the ones that fall through the cracks. We somehow need to figure out who to give the money to and we will end up with someone who deserved but did not get the money. I don&#x27;t know who reviews the grant in the US, but here at least with some funding bodies the scientist manage it themselves (dfg) and I don&#x27;t think one can easily improve on it.
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suc_synover 4 years ago
I am in the same position. First completely self driven research project end in two different academic spend about 80k each fighting over which of them controlled the IP (the decided to share it), and totally fail to commercialize it (the both kept asking me how to do it while I had zero financial incentive). Second after a successful grant funding project which I was told I could not PI because I had not yet completed my PhD, while I was the lead inventor and developer on for 2 years and getting zero naming on the publications. I left academic to make almost twice as much at a soul crushingly boring job. I really felt like I was working on something important but hated the grant funding cycles (I was told if I wanted one I would have to write it in my own time and could not ask for support), and was tired of seeing people up and down the ladder claim ownership of my ideas and work.
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Ulrich2over 4 years ago
&gt; 2015 I saw she had moved to the private sector<p>Strange that the author does not mention she joined BioNTech:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;biontech.de&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2019-08&#x2F;20140202_BioNTech_Katalin%20Kariko_ENG_final.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;biontech.de&#x2F;sites&#x2F;default&#x2F;files&#x2F;2019-08&#x2F;20140202_Bio...</a>
cs702over 4 years ago
<i>&gt; universities ... expect faculty in the medical schools to pay their own way with either clinical work or external research funding. This puts tremendous financial pressure on eager young medical researchers, sometimes leading them not to the projects that are most needed or that they are most passionate about, but to the projects that will get them funding.</i><p>Sometimes it feels as if the current system we have in the US is the worst ever devised for solving the &quot;long-term research&quot; problem --- that is, except for all the other systems that have been tried in the past.<p>How do we, as a society, do better by scientists pursuing research that could take many years or decades to pay off?
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leohover 4 years ago
Avery Oswald died without winning the Nobel, in spite of proving that DNA is the hereditary material (it was thought that amino acids were at the time). Many held him back including his own supervisors. Science is sometimes shit.
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nexthashover 4 years ago
The academic process at a research university from student to researcher to professor is cutthroat. There are so many obstacles in the way: classes designed to weed you out, GPA requirements, the grad school application process, financial instability as a PHD candidate, difficult job opportunities after the doctorate, fighting for funding and tenure, and more. Major reform is needed to progress science, because the current system is a failure pipeline that hurts both researchers and the university (which is shooting itself in the foot).
sega_saiover 4 years ago
I think it is a fair question how to organize science for best results (maximum productivity ?). I am no fan of pressure to apply for grants, which is particularly strong in the US. Also the amount of pressure&#x2F;effort needed to get permanent&#x2F;tenured position is very large. While this is clearly a big drain on people, and some people cannot handle it, either because they don&#x27;t play the game well, or just live&#x2F;work balance, or politics, but I think it certainly forces people to work more&#x2F;harder. If we make things more relaxed, I&#x27;m sure that will make life easier for many scientists, but I would think the overall productivity will go down. I don&#x27;t honestly know whether that&#x27;s right path or not.
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Skyy93over 4 years ago
Science these days has many problems and this is one of them. Securing grants to finance your further way is crucial. But mostly hard work is only appreciated if there are good, valid and reproducable results.<p>I discovered another problem while wrting my master thesis and it&#x27;s also pretty hard to determine good and valid results from papers. There are so many papers out there that are not reproducable especially in computer science. Or the paper is missing very important facts that would help you to reproduce results.<p>I think there should be a system to remove or mark papers as non-reproducable to prevent wasted time.
mathgladiatorover 4 years ago
As a math person and technical person, I find myself so glad that I stayed out of academics and dropped out of my masters program to start a company.<p>This story is exceptionally inspiring because it speaks that we need people that are passionate to focus without worry of basics.<p>We need true believers to throw their lives at a hard problem.<p>The challenge is money. It is so easy to waste. It is so easy to squander on dead ends. This ease makes people conservative and less bold because we make it so hard to get.<p>It&#x27;s clear we don&#x27;t have a good system. I had hopes that I could pursue my passions within big companies by climbing the ladder, and that hasn&#x27;t worked out.<p>Fortunately for myself, I can retire at any moment and throw my life at my silly programming language: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adama-lang.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.adama-lang.org&#x2F;</a><p>Perhaps, there is wisdom in teaching finance to everyone such that people can focus on productive existing problems that yield fruit. This helps contextualize people towards present day concerns and the nature of problems. Then, if people leverage the beauty of wall st then more scientists can throw their lives towards good problems.<p>I don&#x27;t know, but I&#x27;m sure many of us wish we could align funding with passions without the need to build a company.
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auggieroseover 4 years ago
It&#x27;s pretty easy to see who is a top star (because they have continuous highest-quality output), and who will never deliver anything worthwhile.<p>The trouble is the continuum between those two extremes. This domain is dominated by politics, endless grant applications, bureaucracy. Nobody can really tell where you belong in this continuum, maybe not even you yourself. And I also don&#x27;t believe that academia is the best place to pursue your ideas anymore, anyway.
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diego_moitaover 4 years ago
Dr. Katalin Karikó, the scientist mentioned in the article, is now a senior vice-president at BioNTech, the German company that developed the Pfizer&#x2F;BioNTech vaccine.<p>She is also adjunct professor at the same University of Pennsylvania, where these events happened.
TheWaywardProfover 4 years ago
I am in the middle of this right now; new professor at top-10 university in CS (with a PhD in biomedicine). Funding science is a frequently-debated topic and everyone is aware there is a problem, but one part is that in the US we have combined four different organizations: federally-funded scientific research organizations, post-highschool education, vocational training (doctors, lawyers), and professional sports.<p>People think a LOT about the broken science incentives and write a lot about it, but progress is hard. On one hand, it&#x27;s hard to facilitate what you can&#x27;t measure, but many pushes towards scientific &quot;metrics&quot; feel a bit like trying to quantify artistic output: is the number of paintings&#x2F;sculptures&#x2F;etc the right thing to evaluate people on? What about popularity? What about popularity amongst art critics vs the general public?<p>The more I think about it the more I think we need to explicitly recognize the need for a diversity of sources _and_ structures. For people who don&#x27;t know, here&#x27;s an outline of funding sources. The metrics will be in grad-student-years (think ~$70k) because overhead&#x2F;indirect-costs&#x2F;etc. vary wildly. Yes, most of these orgs (esp the NSF) just want to fund labor, and there&#x27;s an expectation that a lot of it is &quot;training&quot; labor.<p>- NSF: The big one for non-biomedical STEM, maybe $8B&#x2F;yr. &quot;normal&quot; grants tend to be small, say 2 grad students for three years. But once you get the grant you can do whatever you want with it within reason. The grants are reviewed by &quot;study sessions&quot; where a team of your peers sit around and rank the grants.<p>- NIH: Budget is $32B&#x2F;yr (4x the NSF), and very clinically focused. The staple, the R01, funds ~4 PhD students for 5 years. These are very hard to get and generally go to more senior PIs. It&#x27;s common for faculty to get their first R01 AFTER they have tenure (7-years into the job, say 40 years old). Once you get the grant you can do whatever you want with it within reason. But the bar for getting one often requires you to have &quot;preliminary data&quot; which is effectively 30% of what you were proposing anyway. As funding gets tighter and more people apply, orgs have responded by becoming more conservative, pushing these preliminary-data-expectations even higher. Note that the NIH is very aware of these problems, and is trying to address them, but the entire infrastructure is dedicated to effectively brutal stack-ranking. Every time they suggest things like &quot;maybe famous professors shouldn&#x27;t have more than 6 of these grants&quot; there&#x27;s a lot of community pushback. Maybe they&#x27;re not wrong? Maybe it is better to give Ed Boyden or George Church effectively a blank check.<p>- DOD (non-DARPA) : Various orgs like the Office of Naval Research, Air Force Research Labs, etc. fund a LOT of basic science. Each one has several long-standing &quot;program managers&quot; who are former scientists that have an agenda for the sorts of things they want to fund. A lot of this funding is dependent on how excited you can get the PM. Think of this like pitching an Angel investor. If you get in good with a PM they can fund you at a decent rate for a long time!<p>- DARPA : I have a soft spot in my heart for DARPA because the model is so different from the other orgs. A DARPA Program Manager 1. can only work there for 4 years (to prevent personal relationships between PMs and &quot;performers&quot; getting too cosy&quot; 2. Generally is in charge of one to three programs during the course of their tenure. A &quot;program&quot; is a very specific research thrust with a lot of money behind it ($20-80m). They are CONTRACTS, not grants, meaning that the PM expects you to actually hit deliverables AND they can yank the funding at anytime. But they have had some great hits and deep pockets. When I almost went to be a PM it was pitched as &quot;like being CEO of your own science startup&quot;. I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s quite right, but it&#x27;s not totally wrong either. Other fun facts include it can take two years to get a program off the ground, meaning the PM that STARTS a program is probably not the one that finishes it, so three years into your project you suddenly have a new boss.<p>- HHMI Investigators: The Howard Hughes Medical Institute is a MASSIVE philanthropic organization that funds biomedical research in the US. Two main mechanisms come to mind: HHMI Investigators, where they identify promising young scientists in academia and give them like $10m ($2m&#x2F;5years? $1m&#x2F;10 years? not sure the exact numbers) so they DONT HAVE TO CHASE GRANTS. Many HHMI investigators go on to win Nobel prizes and stuff, although the causal influence is murky (did the HHMI money let them do great work or is HHMI just good at picking winners?)<p>- HHMI Janelia : Evidently HHMI had so much money that they opened a CAMPUS in the mid-2000s outside of DC where they have 40 labs. Each Janelia &quot;group leader&quot; gets up to 6 employees (mostly postdocs, staff, a few grad students) and effectively an unlimited budget BUT you are evaluated based on publications&#x2F;resources used. That is, unlike at a university (where if you spend $10m to get one nature paper, it&#x27;s great! you got a nature paper! And in fact the university _likes_ that you spent more money because they get a cut) Janelia cares about the resources. Also groups can&#x27;t grow huge (because of headcount limit) so you&#x27;re encouraged to invest in capital and tech over labor. The catch? NO TENURE. You&#x27;re renewed every 5 years, and whole research programs are sunset over 15 year timespans (this is new).<p>- National Labs: A lot of great science happens at national labs, but due to their legacy of nuclear stewardship they can be difficult places to do science (men with guns at the front of the complex!) Still if you&#x27;re looking for a place to do mostly-science without chasing grants TOO much, and are willing to trade some autonomy to do good work, they seem like a reasonable place. They invest a lot in HPC as well if you&#x27;re into that sort of thing. Not that much biomedicine though.<p>I love that there are so many different options, but I still think it&#x27;s bad that SO MUCH of it happens in straight-up university settings. As I said I&#x27;m a new professor and the overhead of teaching and grant writing, coupled with the pandemic, really have me down and brainstorming other options.
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ineedasernameover 4 years ago
Unfortunately this isn&#x27;t restricted to science. Just about any project that can&#x27;t show <i>metric X is increasing</i> at the next quarterly&#x2F;annual review is going to have some difficulty proceeding.<p>Truly massive projects that can be measured in large fractions of a human lifespan are exceptionally rare.
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sjg007over 4 years ago
Most of the Nobel prizes are from some obscure unfunded idea. mRNA vaccines will win the Nobel prize too.
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tobmltover 4 years ago
I want to say something about how messed up this system is... I spent many years as a grad student in economics and especially engineering. Not sure what to say though, my trajectory was pretty non-standard. From where I sat, the academic path looked like a meat grinder, and Econ. and Eng. are easier to break into academia than, e.g. biology, I have no doubt.<p>Aside, I’ve found my fill of god awful meat grinders in industry before and since, but I have no doubt the “existential career threat by default, high probability of failure no matter how good you are” methodology is the wrong way for civilization to progress.
trhwayover 4 years ago
&gt;It is unbelievably, brutally difficult for all of the other non-science skills that are needed but not explicitly taught: writing grants (“grantsmanship”), getting invited to speak at conferences, building collaborative research relationships, having the political awareness to attract allies and mentors within a department or university who can help find support for you.<p>it is the same everywhere - be it political&#x2F;government system or who gets to be a big architect, director or VP in a tech company. An ounce of political savvy and BS skills beats a kilogram of technical skills and expertise.
dd_rogerover 4 years ago
This is probably going to be unpopular on this forum, but why is everyone assuming that having more researchers is desirable &#x2F; needed in the first place?<p>I think scientific research is completely bloated already and there&#x27;s no need to provide work for even more researchers who will either (1) research an already popular subject where ever growing funding yields ever disminishing returns or (2) research an utterly futile subject that serves no purpose beside justifying the researcher&#x27;s salary.
atemerevover 4 years ago
Went from 15 years experience as a financial software engineer to a junior researcher position in the local university, while working towards a biomedical PhD. Was never happier.
shadowgovtover 4 years ago
When I hear a story like this, the first thing I want to know about is how the incentives are structured.<p>The author makes a great point, which is that medical research is expected to pay its own way. So the next question I&#x27;m looking to answer is &quot;Why is that?&quot; What is it about the way we structure this research that made it make sense to U Penn to underfund mRNA research?
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letitgo12345over 4 years ago
Flip side -- the pioneering research may not have been possible without govt funding of science through a grant based system. Imo the right conclusion here is to increase govt funding massively. Unclear to me how to not do it based on a grant system. Even in the industry you need to do project proposals to keep your team funded.
k__over 4 years ago
Don&#x27;t want to know what better discoveries than mRNA vaccines it DID actually cost us.
dstickover 4 years ago
What a heartwarming story. I hope Katalin gets to read it :)
SMAAARTover 4 years ago
Great article.
aaron695over 4 years ago
&gt; Our brutal science system<p>Brutal or setup for lazy bureaucrats who don&#x27;t want to work the brutal hours is takes to be an outstanding scientist?
knownover 4 years ago
You should not go to medical school <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;2ABTX" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;2ABTX</a>
count_chockulaover 4 years ago
Clickbait. All these normative comments sound similar. They don&#x27;t call it work for nothing. Stellar scientists make breakthroughs regardless of obstacles. Just because you get a piled high and deep doesn&#x27;t mean you are capable of breakthroughs. Not everyone is stellar.
dr_dshivover 4 years ago
Wow, there is a lot of negativity towards science in this thread. Um, yeah, it could be better. But it&#x27;s mostly a matter of personal courage. Of course institutional funding is not the best incentive for the best science. Good science comes from courageous individuals in courageous communities. Not financial incentives. Good science takes courage.
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