This game takes like 8-12 hours, but if you do it in person, it just FLIES by. I was too afraid to take a food break or even a bathroom break because I didn't want to be out of earshot of everyone else so they could scheme against me.<p>We had 15 minutes for planning each turn, and that never seemed like enough. You want to talk to everyone, sometimes including one person, then again after that person leaves to talk to someone else and the third person tells you 'Actually I didn't mean what I told him. Screw that guy, let's do this instead.'<p>And then that guy backstabs YOU instead, and you find out their quarrel was all a ruse for everyone else and they were actually just pretend trading supply centers back and forth, not actually fighting.<p>It was overwhelming and I never knew who I could trust, with each turn just nailbiting seeing how it actually played out. But it was also one of the most exhilarating (yet exhausting) gaming experiences in my life.<p>There's also websites for doing it online, and you send messages back and forth, and can set how long each turn takes (like a day or two maybe). It still works that way, but the experience isn't quite as overwhelming.<p>Not bad for a 62 year old game.
We played this in college, but with a couple twists. We had probably 30 people playing separated into the seven teams. Each week, we'd execute one round of orders on Friday evening followed by drinks.<p>Really upped the intrigue as the time scales better matched real diplomacy. Plus the distinction of having to balance internal and external politics better matches real life diplomatic tradeoffs. "What you're saying makes sense, but I'm not sure I can sell that to our ruling council" was something you'd hear a lot. Teams also got really into their countries going so far as basically cosplaying at the end. There was also enough people playing that we were able to keep a regular cadence; it didn't really matter if even a whole team couldn't make it one Friday because they'd get a whole week to get their next orders in. The actual execution was more ceremony than where the main mechanics of the game occurred.
I’ve always wanted to play this, however a few things hold me back.<p>Experience has thought me that it is very difficult to wrangle a lot of people to play complicated games. Simple party games are easy, but the moment you try to explain anything complicated to a large group all their eyes glaze over.<p>Then there is the issue of the extreme play length. The people in my play group will complain if something takes an hour to play, I doubt they could handle 8 hours.<p>The closet I have come to this is Sidereal Confluence which allows for up to 9 players and can takes up to 3 hours or more to play. Explaining that to such a large group was a nightmare.<p>And finally there is the “take that!” aspect of this game that I find worrying. People like to say “don’t get mad it’s just a game!” But this isn’t javascript we’re taking about, these are real people with real feelings. I’ve been involved in games were people explode in anger or other times were people burst into tears, this is not fun.<p>As the host of the game night it’s my responsibility to make sure people have a good time, not to have them fight with each other and break up their friendships.
We got a game of this going in work once. <i>Once</i>.<p>We played in teams of two, so that at least one partner would have time to meet with the other players for negotiations. The moves took place last thing on a Friday, so you had all week to do your scheming. Then we'd all grab a beer and gather round the board to watch the skulduggery.<p>About two thirds of the way through it came out that one team had bribed another <i>with actual cash money</i> before the first turn had even been played. This news didn't go down at all well (although I was quite relieved as we were taking a pounding and had resorted to employing Nixon's "madman theory" in an attempt to buy ourselves some breathing space).<p>We decided we'd best abandon the game before we came to blows.<p>10/10 can't recommend enough.
If curious, past threads:<p><i>The Board Game of the Alpha Nerds (2014)</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18159770" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18159770</a> - Oct 2018 (71 comments)<p><i>Backstabbr: A modern web interface for the classic board game Diplomacy</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468378" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8468378</a> - Oct 2014 (63 comments)<p><i>The Board Game of the Alpha Nerds</i> - <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7913183" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7913183</a> - June 2014 (153 comments)<p>Others?
I've been part of a gaming group for about 45 years. The gmes we have focused on have varied over the years, and so has the lineup of players. For a while we played a lot of Diplomacy.<p>For a couple of years, while we were playing a lot of Diplomacy, we played on some unusual maps. My first wife worked for the USGS Map Sales office, and she could sometimes bring home discarded maps. We tried several of them as Diplomacy boards, including world maps of both Mars and Venus.<p>Mars wasn't that interesting, really. If you use its actual topography to decide where bodies of water go then you pretty much get one modest-sized polar ocean and several circular lakes in impact craters.<p>Venus, though, has an interesting topography that worked great for Diplomacy.<p>I might even have a couple of the hand-colored maps lying around the house (made in the middle 1980s).
I first heard about this game on This American Life - they had an actual ambassador from the US help a novice play. I found it super interesting and now have a copy of the game but haven't played it yet (hoping to post-COVID)<p>The episode, which I found fascinating, is this one: <a href="https://www.thisamericanlife.org/531/got-your-back" rel="nofollow">https://www.thisamericanlife.org/531/got-your-back</a>
I wish I had known about this game in college. Getting 7 adults together for 8+ hours is nearly impossible now.<p>I got to play this with 7 people exactly once. It was amazing.
I'd heard of Diplomacy before but never really knew what it was, it just seemed like another one of those games i'd likely never find enough people to play.<p>That was a fascinating read though. It sounds like a game i'd like to try at least once...though I don't think i'd want to play it with friends or family, a group of strangers would probably be more ideal.<p>Also, i'm not sure which would be more appealing, in person or a mail/email game. I could see them both being entirely different experiences that probably require different kinds of persuasive skills to play and I can see why in person games probably get far more intense.<p>The tournament play though seems especially brutal. Honestly, the idea of a tournament for that game almost seems a bit sadistic. There's no way it's not going to end up with people snapping.<p>I'm honestly kind of surprised nobody's been killed or badly hurt at one of those. I've heard plenty of stories of people being killed for less.<p>It's almost kind of hard to see Diplomacy as a game, it sounds more like an actual Diplomacy simulation than a game. If something like that started as a video game, it'd fall pretty clearly under the simulation category.
I think Diplomacy is a super interesting domain for AI research, too. It has a lot of natural language (over a limited set of topics) as an important component, and multiple agents taking turns simultaneously, with fluctuating alliances.
Last Saturday and yesterday were the qualifying rounds for the top board of the first Diplomacy invitational championship. I don't play myself but if you have some familiarity with the rules the commentary is interesting.<p><a href="https://diplobn.com/dbn-invitational-2021-rules/" rel="nofollow">https://diplobn.com/dbn-invitational-2021-rules/</a>
Calhamer's book on Diplomacy, <i>Calhamer on Diplomacy: The Boardgame "Diplomacy" and Diplomatic History</i>, is probably the best set of game designer's notes I've ever seen. Discussions of the state of Europe in the late 19th century mixed with tactics and play suggestions.<p>It's hard to find, though.
I've played face to face games of this three times. Twice with seven players once with two. The two-player game is interesting but a very different experience. I came across a variant set of rules for two players some years ago that I ended up putting on my personal website sometime in the 90s.<p><a href="http://don.dream-in-color.net/id.html" rel="nofollow">http://don.dream-in-color.net/id.html</a>
This seems like what David Foster Wallace meant to parody when he added Eschaton[0][1] to Infinite Jest.<p>[0] <a href="https://www.outsideonline.com/1902196/eschaton-worlds-most-complicated-game" rel="nofollow">https://www.outsideonline.com/1902196/eschaton-worlds-most-c...</a><p>[1] <a href="http://eschaton.online/" rel="nofollow">http://eschaton.online/</a>
Played hella Diplomacy when we were kids. I don't know if we were any good since this was pre-internet and the standard of play has probably improved considerably over the decades. But we did run into a problem consistently and read the rules over and over, and argued and still couldn't answer this simple question:<p><pre><code> Can you cut a supported support?
</code></pre>
You either can or you can't and the rules then just weren't clear. (The article doesn't mention this problem in its summation.) So we typed up a letter and sent it to I think it was Games Research and waited. For awhile. Finally, a couple of months later we got a reply. They hadn't considered it either! And so they issued a new rule.<p>Honestly, I cannot remember what the ruling was since it's been so long and I haven't played the game in decades. So I had to look up the rules as of now.<p>The support is cut.
I have played online a few times over the decades, and in person once. I think we gave up in person.<p>I have spent many, many hours reading these archives[1]. Recommended if you find the game interesting.<p>[1] <a href="http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/home.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.diplomacy-archive.com/home.htm</a>
The way I recall this game, habitual players need fresh meat to pretend to befriend, then screw over.<p>Perhaps this isn't how it's played at the top. Like Wall Street, you see other people making money through pure genius, so you cut ethical corners trying to do as well?
My favorite way to play is one move a week, and getting together in person for half an hour before and after the moves. It's hard to set aside enough time to run the game straight through in one sitting, and as people keep getting kicked out it's awkward socially.
My group of close friends tried playing online, where nobody knew who was which country. Some had trouble disassociating the back stabbing role play from our real life relationships. It nearly destroyed a few relationships.
I wasn't present, but my fiancee played it with some friends over a weekend. They were all staying in a house having a nice weekend and they took one move an hour (I think that was the cadence) over the period.<p>One excellent rule that they had was a 'hat' rule. Everyone had a hat, and you could only talk about Diplomacy when wearing the hat. It helps prevent in-game emotions from spilling out.<p>Personally, I've played it on backstabbr.com with the cadence of a 1 turn a day. Usually played with colleagues, it worked very well.
Maybe funny, but while I never knew the original game (Diplomacy), I did play the game which was meant for those who became bored with Diplomacy, namely Machiavelli (Avalon Hill, 1977). (Get ready for discussions on every move… ;-) )<p>[1] <a href="https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/286/machiavelli" rel="nofollow">https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/286/machiavelli</a>
It took me a month to finish a full game for my AP European History class in High School.<p>Easily the best board game I have ever played.<p>It inspired me to actually pursue a path in diplomacy and international relations for some time.<p>The game was setup to be high stakes. It amounted to a month's worth of assignments. Only one team could achieve an A grade by domination. Everyone else fails the assignment.<p>There were 42 of us. So each nation had 6 students.<p>I remember almost every move we made to this day because I remember how we reached the final turn and what had to happen for those pieces to be there.<p>One twist:
Each nation had spies. I was a spy for Germany. But I was elected as leader of Turkey. My grade depended on Germany winning, not Turkey. However, Germany does not know I am a spy for them. But I won my election by revealing to my group that I was a German spy and how I would use this information to manipulate both countries.<p>11 turns later. Europe is decimated. Italy has been crushed by the mighty Turkish armada. Russia is starving while fending off a relentless horde of Turkish armies. Austria-Hungary is completely occupied by Turkish forces, advancing on Germany. The British and French navies form an emergency pact to resolve their despite over the English channel to meet us in the Mediterranean, and are prepared to strike us at Greece. This last turn is my masterpiece. The Germans have rallied a massive force, intending to match my positions in the Balkans. The Turkish empire only needs one or two more tiles to claim a victory. The final moves are coordinated such that the Germans must strike at us to deter our assault. However, if I moved things around slightly, the German army would end up seizing the majority supply center limit necessary to achieve victory.<p>My team ousts me as leader. Right on time. They intend to decimate Germany. I have been useful up until now. I cannot issue the final commands and the German resistance will be annihilated by the sheer amount of units we possess. They issue the assault without me and I cannot do anything but reveal our hand to German intelligence. With or without me, the Turkish army will fall since we know their movements.<p>However, Germany fails to issue any orders before the time limit expires. They make no moves. They are crushed by the unencumbered Turkish assault.<p>The German leader was a Russian spy.<p>Turkey wins. Victory by domination.<p>One problem.<p>The entire country of Turkey was composed of spies, assigned to every other Great Power. No one technically works for Turkey. None of our grades belong to Turkey. Every group receives an F. Everyone in our group fails. Nobody receives an A.<p>The class absolutely loses it. I have somehow managed to piss off the entire class where everyone loses.<p>The teacher is frustrated. Technically, this was possible, but it has never happened before. He chose Turkey to be made of spies because Turkey almost never wins, to give it some advantage. He's reticent to amend his grading policy since if any of the other spies were actually good, they would have revealed each other to the group and avoided this situation. But nobody ended up revealing themselves because they assumed that I was the only spy - because I already revealed myself.<p>A compromise is negotiated and settled upon.<p>We're going to watch Patton and write an essay on it. Everyone receives an A.
I've tried for months to put together a serious group who I could play this with, and then we played once and that's it, then didn't come back. Sad.
Is there a professional system for Diplo? Do people train by playing against AIs created by the top companies in the world? Has the game existed for thousands of years and has studied by endless generations of scholar, military generals and intellectuals of all walks of life?<p>I doubt so. The game for alpha nerds is Go, in my opinion. It is an incredibly deep game that will always offer you life lessons at every stage of learning.<p>Now, make no mistake. Diplo is a great game, but is it for alpha nerds in its current form? Not yet.