I don't have Facebook and I'm generally skeptical of Apple's pro-privacy messaging. However, seeing this response from Facebook has gotten me very excited for this update. There must be more to it then Apple's generic 'Most Advanced Update Ever' marketing. I'm still skeptical of Apple's commitment to privacy, but I'm certainly happy to get this update. Apple should thank Facebook for the free marketing.
"Personalized Ads for Small Businesses" What a bunch of malarkey. I've worked in ad space and the actual ability for SB's to compete is laughable. Their budgets are so comparatively small that they simply don't get the assistance necessary. They're drinking through paper straws while the big dogs swim in lakes.<p>SB's absolutely need a platform to compete, but I'm absolutely incredulous that FB is that platform, much less Google or any other like company.
> Some apps, like Facebook, allow for some data tracking to be manually disabled. But by default, it is turned on. That gives the company reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells.<p>My understanding is that Facebook does not sell this data, but rather lets advertisers create hyper-targeted ads, which are only possible because of this data.<p>Edit: Certainly not trying to defend Facebook here (in the slightest). Just trying to correct an inaccuracy in the article.
How can an app track activities in other apps? Is it only possible if those other apps use the same tracking networks, or can the app track activities in _any_ other app? How does this work? What can facebook extract today?<p>(I'm surprised a bit, i thought phones offer app isolation).<p>The only things that comes to mind is to correlate device ids from different apps if the apps use the same analytics/advertising networks.<p>Pls enlighten me...
Apple should be applauded for this. Their revenue does not depend on software to clandestinely steal and sell users data.
One day, we will look back at history and see facebook similar as to how people view myspace now (junkyard of software).
Good on Apple not selling devices with a facebook backdoor in them.<p>I know apple probably has deals with malicious governments regarding data access, but at least they are standing up to FB and exposing their vulnerable points where it hurts badly, Zuckerberg has no clothes.
If personalized ads are really so beneficial to their customers, Facebook should have no problem convincing them to allow the tracking they need and opt-in.
> Some apps, like Facebook, allow for some data tracking to be manually disabled. But by default, it is turned on. That gives the company reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells.<p>Facebook would be giving away money if they ever actually sold your data. As everyone here knows, they use that data to target the ads that they sell.<p>Do journalists phrase it this way out of ignorance, or is it an intentional lie to make Facebook look even worse than it is?
User can still easily opt-in to tracking - so saying this is bankrupting small businesses is really admitting that they need users to be tracked <i>without their knowledge and/or against their will</i>.<p>I mean, it was always kinda obvious, but seeing them confirm it out right is interesting, to say the least.
I’m technical enough to be using PiHole[1], and also have AdBlockers[2] at the local machines. I live with very typical friends, family, and relatives who would still ask my help configuring Wi-Fi, buying the right UPS models, scared when papers got curled up in their printers. (I moved to NextDNS[3] from PiHole, where I don’t have to manage something for a small premium.)<p>I’ve been successful enough to train my family to use 1Password[4], calendar their school works, etc. I’m not against paying for the things that my family and I get happiness from, such as YouTube Premium, Zoom, and the like.<p>I stopped using Facebook 5+ years back but maintained my account just so I can help families, friends who will usually ask me to fix their page for their tiny businesses, find or set up something new.<p>When Mark Zuckerberg said something to the effect of -- we do algorithms to help and serve people get the right ads; my thoughts were, “Wrong Question. Why the f*k would someone wants ads in the first place?”<p>But then, I realized that my wife likes the ads that come up on her Facebook, Instagram accounts. That is where she “discovers” all the awesome things she likes. So does my daughter. She loves the ads about Roblox, Minecraft, and the like. She had warned me to stop messing with her computers and trying to make them “behave like yours!”<p>The real world is an entirely different place where most people barely know anything of the underlying technology beyond the thin veil of interfaces that they use. Facebook and many others take advantage of that. If I'm choosing between the devils, I'd choose the lesser one.<p>1. <a href="https://pi-hole.net" rel="nofollow">https://pi-hole.net</a><p>2. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_blocking" rel="nofollow">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_blocking</a><p>3. <a href="https://nextdns.io" rel="nofollow">https://nextdns.io</a><p>4. <a href="https://1password.com" rel="nofollow">https://1password.com</a>
The way to fix this is not to ask the user whether Facebook should be allowed to track them. That approach is doomed because it gives the FB app the option to diminish its functionality or <i>refuse to work altogether</i> without those permissions.<p>This kind of stuff happens a lot. Almost every (Android) app I've downloaded in the past two years refuses to run if I don't allow it to see my location. Why does an HP photo printer app need my location? Answer: It doesn't. So now I have to install a GPS spoofer app just to print a photo.<p>The way to fix this nonsense permanently is to give the user a single dashboard that lets him/her determine for every app whether it can see <i>true or random data</i> when it tries to snoop. That way the FB app cannot tell when it's being denied something it wants, and thus it cannot arbitrarily decide not to work for that reason.<p>It's critically important that by default apps should <i>not be allowed to know</i> when they are being denied access to private data.
Does anyone support Facebook with this? Does their point below make any sense? I'm supporting Apple now but any merit to the opposing side? Curious to get some informed viewpoints.<p><i>"This discouragement, this is going to have a real impact on the Internet as we know it, which is increasingly going to move to a paid experience, which again, benefits Apple's bottom line..."</i>
Fuckin' let 'em. I'll pick Apple over Facebook eight days a week, and if Facebook takes their ball and goes home, well, even better since it'll finally get me to completely pull the plug on their platform.
> Apple says in the coming weeks, it will update its iOS software for iPhones to require apps to get explicit consent to track what people are doing on their phones for the purposes of sharing it with third-parties.<p>That's all they are doing. They aren't preventing companies from tracking users in this way. They are just requiring them to get permission.<p>Says a lot about Facebook's business model that this is a cause for "all-out war," and that they'd rather try to stop the feature than convince their users to enable it. I guess they know that at the end of they day if they can't do this behind their users' backs, they probably aren't going to be able to do it at all.
It’s so hard to feel bad for Facebook. They’ve made shadow profiles for non-Facebook users for crying out loud! But they are really going out of their way to oppose Apple on this move.<p>The burger restaurant clip in the audio...couldn’t they still target users just based on interests? And not actually linking those interests to a specific person?<p>And on the other hand, I don’t hear much from Google.
I wonder what would happen if FB and Google went a step further and decided to give Apple the Windows Phone (or Huawei) treatment, by pulling all their apps from the App Store, citing these changes as the reason they can't support Apple's platform. I'm not sure the majority of iOS devices users would be happy with any of the involved parties, and that includes Apple.
I wish journalists wouldn't refer to Apple's app store cut as "tax" ; it's a service fee.<p>That is the price Apple charges for providing payment-related services on its platform. It is not a tax.
So interesting to see how more and more businesses realize they have a single point of failure for a billion dollars streams.<p>What's even more interesting is that I don't think many considered those as threats 10 years ago.
I think I might become an Apple fan. Writing this on Android device to be replaced with the new iPhone mini.<p>Facebook's behavior becomes more and more disgusting with their continued push against privacy and transparency. although I think a 30% cut by apple in app store is too much I prefer apples way of building something users actually want to buy.<p>There is 0 drawback for users to ask for their consent before tracking them and sharing that data with who knows whom.
Coming soon, crazy cheap Facebook subsidized Android phones with "Facebook Browser"...<p>I'm only somewhat kidding. I imagine a flood of super cheap, but decent spec Androids would be pretty disruptive, despite sending everything to the FB mother ship.
This tracking needs to be reduced, I applaud Apple for helping progress this.<p>Next order of business is removing the Apple's marketplace monopolisation; the App Store should not be the only marketplace available.
Pros: great news for value app developers. Unfair competition won't be as big of a worry and users will finally have to start valuing their apps (with money!)<p>Cons: small retail sellers will find it hard to advertise and won't be able to compete with big ad spenders that use more wholesale ad strategies
So the whole point is you don't have IDFA, but each app still has its own persistent ID. Before when you used the FB app and another app they both got same IDFA so FB could link them (the FB SDK in the other app posts the IDFA). However, even with Apple change, the apps can still make network connections. All FB needs to do is make its SDK ping a server with the app specific ID and correlate with IP addresses. FB app sends IDFA1 with IP1 and MyAPP sends IDFA2 with IP1, they both have same IP therefore IDFA2 is the same user as IDFA1. Statistically you can get 95%+ matching very quickly. If you never use a wifi and are always on the same mobile network in the same city, then FB cannot distinguish you from other people who never use Wifi and are on the same city as you, but even then, the mobile phone network traffic has 10+ external IP-s so a few days of traffic will correlate quickly. Even worse, when before FB could get away without beacons in the SDK, just sent IDFA once and then just request ads, no need to store IP address every 10 minutes. Now it needs to ping every 10min to get the correlations. Apples next step is then a universal VPN/Proxy that all apps need to use so all traffic goes through Apple servers in the name of privacy. Then FB would see the same IP address on all requests, until that happens though, this is just a smokescreen.
<i>"This discouragement, this is going to have a real impact on the Internet as we know it, which is increasingly going to move to a paid experience, which again, benefits Apple's bottom line," Satterfield said.</i><p>The hypocrisy and dishonesty of this statement! Nothing comes from the new consent requirements that directly stop you from keeping your app free. Can't do it because commercially not viable? Well then, how much are users paying you right now?
Enraging facebook higher ups to this extent is a pretty sure fire way of proving you're doing the right thing.<p>Good on Apple. I fear if it was any other company Facebook would be able to persuade them to change.
Isn't this just going to drive all the tracking serverside?<p>Hash up the tracking data in the app, send it back to the app's servers, send it to whoever you like? Same is happening with browsers and 3rd party cookies.
Have their been any data studies to show exactly how much data is “enough” to adequately target ads?<p>There appears to be a point of diminished returns.<p>Overall though, it’s amazing Facebook/Google have made “targeted ads” a thing.
Facebook friend suggestions are such garbage. Half of them are legitimate acquaintances. Half of them are random women from south america.<p>I've never interacted with anything that should bring those up and I've never clicked on that sort of suggestion. The only reason I can think they'd show me them is my demographic, 30 something male. I haven't clicked on anything on FB or elsewhere on the web that should be getting me random foreign women as friend suggestions.<p>Facebook is terrible quality and has no idea what it's doing.
> Facebook says Apple is attempting to push free apps, which often sweep data up and feed it to advertisers, to move to subscription models.<p>And I think most users will see no problem with this.<p>If I value the service enough, I'll pay for it. That Apple gets 30% is another discussion and as a user, not my problem.<p>If I don't value the service that much, I now get to be informed and can decide whether I value using it more than my privacy. Facebook's all out propaganda campaign shows which choice they think most users will make in this instance.
I don't think there will be such thing as a war. Rules are the same for every company, Apple are just telling FB in advance that they are not making an exception.
They can just never update their app again, like Google. Let's be real, their ADHD like update schedule isn't exactly improving anything regardless.
FB advertiser here.<p>I had to change some of my Business Manager settings this week in preparation for the iOS changes before my new ads would run. They specifically mentioned "Aggregated Event Measurement" for anybody who wants to look into it.<p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/business/help/721422165168355" rel="nofollow">https://www.facebook.com/business/help/721422165168355</a>
I think the Facebook case shouldn't be left to the market to "sort itself out", but instead this type of business model should be banned in its entirety, just like people cannot run ponzi schemes, they shouldn't also run "free" services in exchange for processing personal data.
Well, looks like NPR is fake news now. “That gives [Facebook] reams of personal data on who we are and what we are doing, which it then vacuums up, packages and sells.”<p>Even the most cursory investigation will reveal that Facebook does not sell this data as it is too valuable, they just rent out access to your eyeballs.
I don't like the wording at all. <i>"Ask app not to track"</i> means an app can ignore a user's request, just like with <i>"Do not track"</i> on the web. The button should read "Deny", and the denial should be strictly enforced.
Won't this get handled by apps asking users to choose between all tracking, or multi-page-collapsible-ambiguous-form-for-selective-tracking ? Nobody spends minutes to deselect every category in those forms.
I don't really get this tracking thing. It seems like they should be able to use some kind of super AI to predict what I'm most likely to buy next, and that would actually be useful for me. Sounds great but I never or very rarely see ads that even remotely match my preferences.<p>Also, I think markets have changed so that those companies who have great products don't need to advertise at all. Those companies who have the worst products will spend most on advertising. So, when I see an ad for an product, I know that it's likely to be a bad product.
As an Android user, how much of this should I be worried about? I assume Google won't be pushing for this as much as Apple is? What can I do to reduce app tracking on my phone?
"which is increasingly going to move to a paid experience"
We already pay but with data instead of money. But we neither know the real cost nor the real consequences.
you could see this as a case of apple using their monopoly powers to drive another company out of business. This whole thing seems quite deliberate on the part of Apple. They have taken the applaudable step of prioritising user privacy, and i'm not a conspiracy theorist... BUT i assume that apple will never do something if it won't ultimately help the bottom line. I'm going to invest in some popcorn and see how this plays out.
I am really not sure why is it only fb whose name pops up in media. IMO, this update will affect entire advertising industry. Be it giants like Google, Tradedesk, Amazon etc. In the end it is loss to the advertisers as lack of data will be hampering their measurements and targeting. Not sure if for internet platforms it matters. Will this be good for businesses in streaming TV like roku, apple, firetv?
Fuck Facebook. Buy Apple. They’re the good guys in this case. They are fundamentally about advancing the case of sexy electronics and hardware and polished SIMPLE clean user interfaces and connectivity that just works. Don’t believe the lies about it being a “walled Garden” or some shit. Tim Cook can fundamentally be swayed that privacy is a FEATURE THE USER DEMANDS.
Good for iOS users. Rest of the developing world use cheap phones loaded with obsolete Androids. Facebook & Google can now leech on them.<p>Re: Indian full newspaper AD about Whatsapp privacy.<p><a href="https://www.fastcompany.com/90593913/whatsapp-facebook-privacy-outrage-newspaper-ads" rel="nofollow">https://www.fastcompany.com/90593913/whatsapp-facebook-priva...</a>
My guess is over time most free apps that depend on tracking will refuse to work unless allowed to track. And most users will acquiesce, just so they can use an app that they want to use.<p>Even the Facebook app itself could refuse to work unless tracking is turned on.<p>It's still a positive change overall, and still affects Facebook but it appears to me the effect will be minor, even temporary.
The Grace Jones ad is discussed in more detail here:
<a href="https://adage.com/article/media/facebooks-new-commercial-narrated-grace-jones-celebrates-big-ideas-and-personalized-ads/2317246" rel="nofollow">https://adage.com/article/media/facebooks-new-commercial-nar...</a>
I wonder how much of the tracking would still be necessary if Facebook didn't limit the organic reach of local business pages, as I understand they do in order to boost their ad offerings, and allowed them some space in the feed based purely on the likes/fans/comments they have as they did in the early years.
>Two titans of Silicon Valley, Facebook and Apple, are in a bitter fight that centers on the iPhone data of millions of people and whether companies should be able to track that data as easily as they do now.<p>While two titans of Silicon Valley are fighting for control over our data my question is how we protect our data from both of them.
I'm wondering if there are people on HN that supports Facebook (aside from FB employees, or FB stock holders of course). Seems every time this topic gets rehashed FB seems to gain 100% of hate. Not saying anything about FB or Apple, but I just want to see if there exists people here that support FB.
Just remember that the facebook phone was an absolute disaster and they are trying to scrub it from peoples memory.<p>FB is a product designers nightmare. Its a horrible product trying to force its way into every aspect of your life to slurp cash from the massive stupidity of humans.
What does Facebook realistically expect to get out of this PR push?<p>Apple seems to be doing nothing legally wrong. So, I'm guessing FB is trying to sway public opinion. But, does the public really care that much about the health of small businesses who advertise on Facebook?
Allowing AD tracking in the first place is on Apple. They opened the door for bad actors like Facebook. I won't praise them for fixing this hole; I'm upset they put it in and even more upset it's taken this long to consider removing it.
"We want to keep tracking the user without their knowledge and that entity is not allowing us - and its bad for us if we can't do it".<p>This is most stupidest hill to die on for a business. I am continuously amazed at how shortsighted Zuckerbeg is.
I'm still confused on why facebook needs to be an app at all. They should just make the mobile browser version of their website the best way to experience facebook and then have people add the facebook mobile website to their home screen.
It probably has a much wider impact on FB than what is currently known. If anyone uses FB ads, in almost every field of the campaign there is now a new warning icon that says this feature may not work for users on the latest iOS version.
The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my friend. Facebook has a lot of issues and we might applaud Apple on their push for "privacy" but we can't forget that Apple is no angel either.
There is just absolutely no good-faith way anyone can disagree with requiring user consent to be tracked. It is as close to “pure evil” as you can get for Facebook to campaign against it.
What a great day. Next to prepare: Youtube with it's super creepy listening recommendation algorithm. If you say something out loud it will appear in your feed.
We might soon learn what users prefer, a break from Facebook or a break from their iPhone... If I were Facebook, this wouldn't be a fight I'd pick.
"Ninety percent of our customers are finding us because of Facebook, because of those personalized ads, so if something was to disrupt that, it's going to be a problem,"<p>Why is it so hard for people to understand that if your business relies on unethical practices, they're the problem - not those who pursue privacy. If your business relied on breaking into people's homes and reading through their personal file cabinet, it wouldn't even be a question whether or not that business should exist. Taking people's digital data without consent is okay though? Plenty of small and large businesses thrived just fine before Facebook. Sorry/not sorry that not everyone buys into surveillance capitalism.
I wonder if Apple is weary of what is about to happen:<p>1) Try to destroy all ad platforms
2) Build their own ad platform<p>Big company behavior is so predictable... oh humans
Hmm I do find it interesting in the article that Facebook stated the reason Apple doing this is to push towards paid apps, i.e. subscriptions instead of ads, since Apple takes it's mafia 30% tax cut on subscriptions, but not on ads.<p>That actually does make some sense, I do enjoy this infighting between Big Tech, since the user will ultimately benefit by seeing each companies true colors (and that includes the "Cult" Inc., not just Facebook)
<i>"Ninety percent of our customers are finding us because of Facebook"</i> (Restaurant owner)<p>I don't understand why iOS Location perms wouldn't be better for targeting ads than full-tracking across apps and sites?<p>Don't get me wrong. The Apple Tax has potential to get out of control. But FB needs to present better arguments than SMBs who can already geo target ads using basic tools.
Asking for consent or informing about tracking is bullshit. I would bet 99% "voluntary conscious consent" is either not conscious or not voluntary. People just are given no real choice (they would be denied service or forced to go through an intimidating configuration dialog if they object) and/or have no actual idea about what does that really mean.
Facebook is evil. It harms societies for various reasons, for instance by enabling spread of misinformation, and it hurts individuals alike.<p>Every measure that weakens platforms like FB is to be welcomed.<p>Apple is big enough to confront FB and harm them. That alone makes Apple even more valuable in my eyes and makes me keep buying their products although I dislike their walled-garden-approach and their philosophy that is against open systems.<p>Edit:<p>A couple of years ago my impression was that FB is so big that it‘s futile to fight them. Recently more and more people seem to realize how harmful these kind of platforms are, and it seems there is hope in confronting them.
The fact that Facebook appears to consider user consent an existential threat to their business model tells me everything I need to know about them right now.
Lmao, just like all the businesses that build their platform on top of Facebook APIs only to have those APIs closed down, now Facebook will realize what it's like to build your business based on hardware device tracking, only to have manufacturer's like Apple restrict that down.<p>Buh bye facebook. May you rot in hell.
In the future, you'll get to choose whether your phone vendor sells your data or censors what content you can access on it. It's gonna be great.
Imagine a world with 0 tracking on any website/app. It would be horrendous. Advertising would not stop, it would just be so bad that we as users will be in even worse situation than today.<p>Now, current situation is also not good, with the amount of tracking/ers not only affecting privacy, but also the look, speed and size of the web pages in a very bad way.<p>Also no advertising on the web at all, as much as people say they would want it, I think they would even less want the effect of no advertising at all. So many services would be not be feasible, and everything else would be pay per month to access kind of thing. And you can only pay so much.<p>There should be a middle ground. But me personally would rather prefer _some_ (where that amount is less than today) targeted advertising to the alternatives. Even though I almost never click on ads, on any platform.
Apple some time ago recognized that they won't be able to compete on software with other BigTech giants so they are building an environment where certain software advancements are crippled. User activity data will be important to tune algorithms for maximum utility and by restricting access to user data for others, Apple wants to give itself the best shot to stay in the game.<p>In the long run this will be a net loss for the Apple customers whose experiences will likely suffer compared to Android and other players. Already in my subjective opinion Android on Pixel phones provides a much richer and engaging environment than iOS and the difference will only become even more pronounced.<p>Now it's a race. Will Apple superior hardware and privacy focus draw the majority of users before Google and others deliver clearly better software experiences, or whether the difference in software smarts will cause users to gravitate away from the walled garden of iOS and towards more permissive ecosystems.