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Notes on the Slate Star Codex Controversy

82 pointsby razinabout 4 years ago

14 comments

CompelTechnicabout 4 years ago
&gt;the hunter, logger, and geologist will walk through the same patch of wilderness and see an entirely different forest, for each eye is trained to notice something different. The more abstract the things observed the greater individual variance there will be. For intangible social processes like market exchange, mass movements, and elections, our understanding is all model, no matter.<p>I really like this snippet. Captures an idea I hadn&#x27;t ever been able to put into words before.
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cannabis_samabout 4 years ago
It’s a bit funny that the main defender of NYT that this article puts forward is a co-founder of gawker of all things.<p>A journalist that then promptly proceeds to explain that it’s the interviewee’s fault that a journalist misrepresents them, with a strange paternalistic argument about this being “how journalism works”.<p>Literally Every Single Person I have talked to about being interviewed have described the exact same experience, the journalist misrepresented what they said. Maybe, just maybe, the common factor here are the journalists?<p>But journalist are completely unable to understand this point-of-view, because they view themselves as the righteous defenders of “the truth”.
Sebb767about 4 years ago
Good article!<p>Regarding question two (&quot;was the article misrepresenting SA&#x2F;the rationalists&quot;), a bit of the misunderstanding is cultural, I think. The NYT article makes heavy use of (what seems to be) guilt by association, i.e. he is in the same scene as &quot;known bad&quot; Peter Thiel etc.. While this is an accepted argument in some circles, it is frowned upon a lot in the rationalist community and seen as cheap smear. I think this is a major point on why opinions diverge on the article and why it is seen as malicious by so many people.
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bondarchukabout 4 years ago
Regarding point 3, the argumentation given about framing and narrative just supports the hit job claim IMHO. Part of the NYT narrative is that anyone who doesn&#x27;t support the narrative is an enemy. Writing a piece within that frame about someone who does not toe the line almost automatically turns it into a hit piece.
webnrrd2kabout 4 years ago
There has been a long tradition of people writing books under pseudonyms. I don&#x27;t think the NYT has made it a point to publish, for e.g., every book review with the author&#x27;s actual name. I honestly don&#x27;t see why publishing a rather non-controversial blog should be different.
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Wowfunhappyabout 4 years ago
I really appreciated Matthew Yglesias’s take on this a couple of weeks ago. Highly recommended:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slowboring.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;slate-star-codex" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.slowboring.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;slate-star-codex</a>
kodahabout 4 years ago
&gt; By and large, talented reporters scrambled to match stories with what internally was often called “the narrative.” We were occasionally asked to map a narrative for our various beats a year in advance, square the plan with editors, then generate stories that fit the pre-designated line. Reality usually had a way of intervening. But I knew one senior reporter who would play solitaire on his computer in the mornings, waiting for his editors to come through with marching orders. Once, in the Los Angeles bureau, I listened to a visiting National staff reporter tell a contact, more or less: “My editor needs someone to say such-and-such, could you say that?”<p>I&#x27;m shocked this is the case, though I&#x27;ve felt this has been the case. I don&#x27;t know how one &quot;speaks truth to power&quot; when talking about narratives. It gives the NYT a very Game of Thrones feel, but more like the South Park version with reporting like this in mind.<p>Secondarily, as the author points out, people are looking for place to punch. This the author sets up a dichotomy of &quot;up&quot; for people more powerful and &quot;down&quot; for people less powerful.<p>The problem with power is that it&#x27;s very perspective based. The author lays out some criteria but even that doesn&#x27;t seem enough. If you have a Silicon Valley SWE who has saved up $5M and done nothing political, but has a popular blog talking about software and investing, are you entitled to fix them and frame them as you wish?<p>Personally, I have gravitated away from the idea of &quot;punching&quot; because as the author later alludes, punching implies a use of perspective which can change. Your punch cannot though, once send is hit, that is it.<p>&gt; the hunter, logger, and geologist will walk through the same patch of wilderness and see an entirely different forest, for each eye is trained to notice something different. The more abstract the things observed the greater individual variance there will be. For intangible social processes like market exchange, mass movements, and elections, our understanding is all model, no matter.<p>I really liked this perspective, it was very thought provoking. It&#x27;s always perplexed me why people can witness the same things and derive such different perspectives. It doesn&#x27;t put those perspectives at less competition with each other, but it does make them more understandable.
newacct583about 4 years ago
I can&#x27;t find anything in that treatment I&#x27;d actually want to argue with. This sounds pretty much exactly right to me.<p>That said, here is as good an example as I am aware of for why the left-leaning world finds rationalists so outrageously exhausting. Including footnotes (footnotes!), this is a <i>seven thousand word treatise</i> on what can only be called a minor quibble. A psychiatrist wrote an anonymous blog, got outed, and doesn&#x27;t actually seem to have been harmed much in practice. He&#x27;s back to writing rationalist stuff under his own name.<p>Yet... this is somehow an existential thing we need to revisit (pg himself tweeted out this story this morning) again and again and again?<p>This is where the rest of us just throw up our hands. The whole idea of the rationalist perspective is that it&#x27;s supposed to be detached from parochial loyalty. It&#x27;s supposed to be about <i>real</i> problems and <i>real</i> solutions that affect <i>real</i> people in <i>real</i> ways.<p>And... when push comes to shove, it&#x27;s not. It&#x27;s just another tribe, waging just another tribal war. The fact that Alexander was wronged here is real. The idea that his wronging is of existential importance is just not remotely &quot;rationalist&quot;. At all.
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abecedariusabout 4 years ago
&gt; Was it a premeditated “hit job” or revenge piece? Or is there a better explanation for what happened?<p>The OP offers as the better explanation that the NYT had a narrative for the piece to fit; and that narrative should not be seen as retaliation, because the trouble SSC gave them was beneath their notice.<p>This might be right, I don&#x27;t know, but how do you square it with all the sources saying Metz told them he was researching a basically positive piece on the rationalists being right early about the pandemic? Was he just lying? (E.g. this post by Scott Aaronson, C-f for &quot;Cade&quot;: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scottaaronson.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;?p=5310" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.scottaaronson.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;?p=5310</a>)<p>Also, it&#x27;s not clear that the paper or the writer would only retaliate against a party viewed as powerful -- you don&#x27;t necessarily see swatting a mosquito as not worth the effort; it&#x27;s not as if a negative story is more work than a neutral one.<p>Does anyone know more about when papers write hit pieces and when they don&#x27;t?
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matthewdgreenabout 4 years ago
&gt; Here is where I break ranks with the rationalists: all the talk about “hit jobs” is silly and conspiratorial.<p>I don&#x27;t think the &quot;hit job&quot; conspiracy theories are silly, I think they&#x27;re a big deal. The conspiracy theorizing in the rationalist community right now is what worries me about the way that they&#x27;re trending. Remember that this is a community that has a great deal to say about the downside of cognitive biases on their entire thought process, and specifically identifies conspiracies and tribalism as biases that can distort our perceptions. Yet the community seems to increasingly be awash in exactly the biases that they identify as most toxic. This is not some small concern, it&#x27;s a problem that undermines the entire project. And while I agree that &quot;rationalists&quot; aren&#x27;t some sort of Illuminati that controls Silicon Valley, they&#x27;ve certainly got enough of a following that a &quot;Scientology&quot; level culthood could emerge out of the group <i>if they allow this to happen</i>. I think that there is a dark timeline where that could really happen, and it would be a lousy outcome, especially since I have friends and colleagues who are attracted to this community.<p>TL;DR: I don&#x27;t know if the NYT is the problem here, but I wish the community would spend more time thinking about its own tendency to identify conspiracy theories and close ranks against the &quot;outgroup&quot; and put serious thought into how they&#x27;re going to fight this. Because this is antithetical to the purpose of the entire project.
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nabla9about 4 years ago
&gt;For a public intellectual like Will Wilkinson all press is good press; he lives in a world of ceaseless self-promotion, and is not properly situated to understand what being targeted by an international media outlet feels like for folks outside of that world.<p>Will Wilkinson was fired few weeks ago based on one tweet. He knows. He has also been close to the rationalist community from the start and has no ill will. He is in good position to criticize and he does it well. His criticism probably hurts most because it&#x27;s so insightful.
chmod600about 4 years ago
If we frame this era as a struggle for power between the media and everyone else (at least all the other poeple who have power to lose), I think the picture gets clearer. I am not saying that&#x27;s the only valid way to frame a complex world, just that it clarifies a lot of the important battles.<p>If you ask me, the media has taken way too much power and that&#x27;s bad for everyone. It might feel like a victory when Trump is taken down, but as we see here, the power can and will be turned against anyone.
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Aqueousabout 4 years ago
He admits ‘At some point Scott would have to choose which role he wanted to play full time.’ And then immediately negates himself by saying ‘But that should have been his decision. What right did the New York Times have to make that decision for him?’ The answer is: because they are a newspaper. I dislike NYT as much as anyone (mostly because of their focus on access journalism). But The New York Times is still a newspaper. Their job is to report the news, and much of the time they do so it is against the personal or professional interests of the people they are reporting on. in many cases not reporting the news against those interests would actually be a violation of their own professional ethics. It is not their job to help someone tightrope walk the ethics of their profession in the precarious way they’ve chosen. The author here admits that the anonymous blogger at the center of this controversy is walking such a tightrope, at their own risk. Isn’t that on them? lots of people would like to remain anonymous. would you like to live in a world where the New York times lets powerful people who are doing awful, unethical things remain anonymous as they would like to? wouldn’t that be the opposite of journalism? so what’s different here? the fact that we are ok with or even admire what the subject is doing? and why should the ny times care about that?
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lalaland1125about 4 years ago
For the opposite side of this, I highly recommend that people read <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;eruditorumpress.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-beigeness-or-how-to-kill-people-with-bad-writing-the-scott-alexander-method&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;eruditorumpress.com&#x2F;blog&#x2F;the-beigeness-or-how-to-kill...</a>, which does a thorough explanation of why Scott is a bad writer and how he promotes incorrect and damaging views. Scott&#x27;s entire game is to use rhetoric to support poorly backed hypotheses like &quot;feminism is terrible&quot;.<p>There was literally a women in the rationalist community who committed suicide due to harassment and Scott&#x27;s first reaction was to insinuate that all of her accusations were false.
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