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NYTimes Peru N-Word: My side of the story, in four parts

344 pointsby FillardMillmoreabout 4 years ago

33 comments

dangabout 4 years ago
Part 2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-two-what-happened-january-28-3e41bdbb28a7" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a><p>Part 3: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-three-what-happened-in-the-2019-investigation-6f8e9939a385" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a><p>Part 4: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-four-what-happened-in-peru-2a641a9b5e83" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a><p>The referenced story: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;star-new-york-times-reporter-donald-mcneil-accused-of-using-n-word-making-other-racist-comments" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.thedailybeast.com&#x2F;star-new-york-times-reporter-d...</a><p>(Thanks djoldman and qnsi.)
hn_throwaway_99about 4 years ago
I&#x27;ll admit, I didn&#x27;t read all four articles. I got about half way through the first one and was just wondering &quot;I still have no idea what this is all about.&quot; Fortunately, the Wikipedia article on the author has a brief summary.<p>In particular, I thought this quote from the Wikipedia article really summarizes the differences between older and younger generations: &quot;there is a profound difference between using a racial epithet in the course of a discussion about that racial epithet&#x27;s use, and using a racial epithet to diminish or to wound someone.&quot;<p>For &quot;socially conscious&quot; people in my generation (Gen X), I think nearly all of us would find calling someone a racial epithet abhorrent. At the same time, while I understand culture has shifted and I wouldn&#x27;t do it now, I still find it quite bizarre that <i>the mere utterance</i> of the epithet, even in a sentence like &quot;You should never call someone a &lt;racial epithet&gt; because that is extremely offensive&quot; is considered itself racist by younger people.<p>I recall hearing about a young popular YouTuber about a year or so ago who was accused of being racist simply for singing along to the lyrics of a popular rap song. Even more strange to me was that his defense (which was true if one looked up his Instagram video) was that he did NOT utter said epithet, in that he was singing along with the lyrics but when it got to that word he just skipped it and didn&#x27;t say it.<p>I understand culture changes, but it still bothers me that we&#x27;ve gotten to the point where we completely disregard intent and focus instead just on the syntax of what was said. To be clear, I&#x27;m not sure if that&#x27;s indeed what occurred in Mr. McNeil&#x27;s case, but I certainly have seen it in other examples.
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Wowfunhappyabout 4 years ago
&gt; 1. Yes, I did use the word, in this context: A student asked me if I thought her high school’s administration was right to suspend a classmate of hers for using the word in a video she’d made in eighth grade. I said “Did she actually call someone a (offending word)? Or was she singing a rap song or quoting a book title or something?” When the student explained that it was the student, who was white and Jewish, sitting with a black friend and the two were jokingly insulting each other by calling each other offensive names for a black person and a Jew, I said “She was suspended for that? Two years later? No, I don’t think suspension was warranted. Somebody should have talked to her, but any school administrator should know that 12-year-olds say dumb things. It’s part of growing up.”<p>&gt; 2. I was never asked if I believed in white privilege. As someone who lived in South Africa in the 1990’s and has reported in Africa almost every year since, I have a clearer idea than most Americans of white privilege. I was asked if I believed in systemic racism. I answered words to the effect of: “Yeah, of course, but tell me which system we’re talking about. The U.S. military? The L.A.P.D.? The New York Times? They’re all different.”<p>&gt; 3. The question about blackface was part of a discussion of cultural appropriation. The students felt that it was never, ever appropriate for any white person to adopt anything from another culture — not clothes, not music, not anything. I counter-argued that all cultures grow by adopting from others. I gave examples — gunpowder and paper. I said I was a San Franciscan, and we invented blue jeans. Did that mean they — East Coast private school students — couldn’t wear blue jeans? I said we were in Peru, and the tomato came from Peru. Did that mean that Italians had to stop using tomatoes? That they had to stop eating pizza? Then one of the students said: “Does that mean that blackface is OK?” I said “No, not normally — but is it OK for black people to wear blackface?” “The student, sounding outraged, said “Black people don’t wear blackface!” I said “In South Africa, they absolutely do. The so-called colored people in Cape Town have a festival every year called the Coon Carnival where they wear blackface, play Dixieland music and wear striped jackets. It started when a minstrel show came to South Africa in the early 1900’s. Americans who visit South Africa tell them they’re offended they shouldn’t do it, and they answer ‘Buzz off. This is our culture now. Don’t come here from America and tell us what to do.’ So what do you say to them? Is it up to you, a white American, to tell black South Africans what is and isn’t their culture?”<p>I fundamentally don&#x27;t understand why the Times didn&#x27;t explain this early on. Not necessarily release these statements verbatim, but certainly provide some of this context.
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hojjat12000about 4 years ago
I do not know who this guy is.<p>I don&#x27;t read the NYT.<p>I have a hard time reading long texts. I get distracted or bored real quick and switch to a different tab.<p>But these 4 articles were so interesting and horrifying to read I read them all in one setting. I&#x27;m sorry that this happened. This is a nightmare of mine. Someone gets a hold of some stupid thing that I said or did (as a joke back in college) or in this case as an honest attempt to explain stuff to teenagers, and now you have to go over every single word and explain yourself. and as soon as you start explaining yourself, you have lost the argument (I learned this when I tried to explain myself to my partner. I&#x27;ve learnt that no matter if I&#x27;m right or wrong, I should just apologize. It&#x27;s faster and less painful.)
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djoldmanabout 4 years ago
Part 2: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-two-what-happened-january-28-3e41bdbb28a7" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a><p>Part 3: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-three-what-happened-in-the-2019-investigation-6f8e9939a385" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a><p>Part 4: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-part-four-what-happened-in-peru-2a641a9b5e83" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;donaldgmcneiljr1954.medium.com&#x2F;nytimes-peru-n-word-p...</a>
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defgenericabout 4 years ago
It sounds like what&#x27;s happening at the New York Times is that the younger generation of journalists (Gen X, Millenials) want the older generation out. They want their jobs.<p>In that context it&#x27;s easy to see why no argument or defense would ever convince the &quot;woke&quot; mob in the newsroom.
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u678uabout 4 years ago
Its quite amazing that he&#x27;s an experienced journalist and he knows its worth publishing your own work directly because you know journalists will subjectively misquote you. Its a good lesson.
shruubiabout 4 years ago
So, after reading all this (and boy, I understand it&#x27;s to provide context, but it is a slog), my general takeaway is that Donald was making good and accurate points, but perhaps for this audience probably should have considered and measured his words a bit more.<p>I do believe that if you actually understand the situations, there is most definitely no malice or harmful intent in anything he said&#x2F;did, but I can also see how in the current climate where nuance is irrelevant that things he said and did could be perceived as offensive to people who are hypersensitive to these things.<p>What concerned me more was that, at least based upon this narrative, the collective failure of The Times to perhaps underline from the outset that the issue was spreading within the newsroom and how serious it was, and that the Times provided next to no support for the situation beyond having legal proofread statements and more or less left Donald to hang in the wind. It really seems to me that the Times more or less gave up on Donald from the outset and let things snowball as an excuse to get rid of him to avoid bad PR.<p>And the real kicker is that they still left him up to get a pulitzer for his reporting at their publication while throwing him under the bus. Talk about having your cake and eating it too.
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bitbangabout 4 years ago
Read an article on this last week. With the internet sucking up all the advertising revenue, journalism is turning into propaganda in order to try to retain patronage. It&#x27;s eating them from the inside out.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thedispatch.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;words-as-weapons-how-activist-journalists" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thedispatch.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;words-as-weapons-how-activist-jour...</a>
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dragonwriterabout 4 years ago
Seems to me a combination of really poor quality[0], meandering writing by McNeil and obsession with the “cancel culture” narrative by many approaching the story is obscuring that real story here, talking McNeil at his word, is “management anti-labor negotiator leads effort to force out perennial labor negotiator who was a long time thorn in the side, and when the pretext on which that effort was founded fails to lead to the target handling the situation quite badly enough to justify firing, the details of the internal investigation (with additional embellishments designed to be provocative) conveniently leak to an outside media org, providing pretext for another round of action in which the target is finally forced out”.<p>If we accept McNeil’s narrative, and cut through the weeds of the meandering explanation, it seems very much to be a story of repeated attempts to find a way to leverage whatever material was available, including especially McNeil’s known prickly, defensive lack of tolerance for what he sees as BS, especially about himself, to maneuver him into a situation where he could be fired or forced to resign, not something genuinely driven by offense at him using a particular word, or disrespecting tribal shamans, or telling stories about his encounter with partially nude dancers, or any of the other incidents cited in complaints, together or separately.<p>[0] EDIT: arguably, some really poor quality writing on my part is obscuring my point here: in regard to McNeil’s epic, I meant “poor quality” only in terms in efficiency in conveying his side of the narrative of his being forced out for the benefit of readers looking to be informed about that, which superficially seems to be the putative intent of the piece.
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tesnirnatabout 4 years ago
&gt; “Recently,” I told Carolyn, “I’ve been feeling a little like a Confederate Statue. I think people are getting a little sick of me and are waiting for me to make a mistake so they can pull me down and trample me.”<p>I can&#x27;t be the only person who thinks that this is an odd and inappropriate comparison to make, can I? But it doesn&#x27;t surprise me that someone who thinks that this is a reasonable analogy in a public setting would be interpreted as making racist remarks.
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tantalorabout 4 years ago
NYT: &quot;We do not tolerate racist language regardless of intent.&quot;<p>Also NYT: As President Barack Obama said of racism in 2015: “We are not cured of it. And it’s not just a matter of it not being polite to say ‘[n-word]’ in public.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;17&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;n-word-tape-trump-racism-omarosa.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2018&#x2F;08&#x2F;17&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;n-word-tap...</a><p>(They print the actual word)
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djoldmanabout 4 years ago
If you&#x27;re a journalist, you should know better than anyone that:<p><pre><code> There is no such thing as off-the-record and It is wise to consider everything one says and writes to be saved for eternity and immediately sent to one&#x27;s worst enemy </code></pre> It&#x27;s interesting that we humans just can&#x27;t stop talking.
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Pxtlabout 4 years ago
I know I should be paying attention to the meat of the matter, but I was stuck on the fact that this man&#x27;s life story was literally &quot;I started in the mail room in the &#x27;70s&quot; and I&#x27;m flabbergasted that there are people in the modern world who got jobs at the most prestigious newspaper in the world that way.<p>It&#x27;s like hearing &quot;oh yeah I used to take the trolley to work for a nickel and we&#x27;d go see a talky after work&quot; from a modern working-age human.
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altgansabout 4 years ago
I think the author didn&#x27;t misinterpret the situation. Just everyone else did. In my opinion the &quot;emergency mode&quot; of the NYT made everything worse.<p>Why would the hold an emergency meeting if it wasn&#x27;t an emergency.<p>If they had just held their horses, the actually empty article of the &quot;beast&quot; would have fizzled.<p>Note: I am not a media insider<p>---<p>I don&#x27;t like the authors response in this post. In part 1 he is basically groveling. He needs to provide the facts, and then shut up, instead of telling everyone how he &quot;was active in africa&quot;, so he clearly can&#x27;t be racist
mc32about 4 years ago
The biggest take for me is that reporters are ideologues of what they see as ‘truth’; to wit:<p>“...But we’re still jackals. We can befriend you for years, and then bite off your arm just as you’re offering us a treat. We can’t help it. It’s the nature of the job. At the highest levels, like Watergate, it’s about digging for the truth, no matter what corrupt government official it hurts. At the basest level, when even the crummiest scandal erupts, you have to repeat the accusation, even if you know it’s untrue or half-true, in order to explain the truth — no matter how much you may personally like the source you’re hurting.”<p>How can you know if you’re ultimately right or wrong? What are you inflecting?
teddyhabout 4 years ago
&gt; <i>We can befriend you for years, and then bite off your arm just as you’re offering us a treat. We can’t help it. It’s the nature of the job.</i><p>Live by the sword, die by the sword.
jerome-jhabout 4 years ago
Referring mostly to part 3: if you&#x27;re aging in a modern company and do not fully endorse the &quot;company spirit&quot;, you will be targeted by younger bullshiters. They will perceive you as a threat to the company and use your demise as a way up. In this case it is likely the DB has been tipped by an insider.<p>Newspapers are modern companies like many others: they are under ferocious competition, live from ads and subsidies from would-be oligarchs. Not a place for a &quot;grumpy&quot; old man, no matter the value you bring to the company, if you are not part of the &quot;team&quot;.
King-Aaronabout 4 years ago
&gt; Yes, I did use the word, in this context: A student asked me if I thought her high school’s administration was right to suspend a classmate of hers for using the word in a video she’d made in eighth grade. I said “Did she actually call someone a “(offending word”? Or was she singing a rap song or quoting a book title or something?”<p>So he was asking a student if they had said the &quot;evil word&quot;... He wasn&#x27;t calling anyone that, he was basically repeating it to ask the question. And they fired him for that?<p>Honestly, I&#x27;m a massive proponent of social progression. But this seems like &#x27;cancel culture&#x27; obsession going way too far.
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SurfingToadabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve seen &quot;cancel culture&quot; in analogy to the immune response for a long time now, and it fits pretty well.<p>If you imagine that ideas can spread like infections, it makes sense to quarantine and ostracize individuals that have caught threathening ideas.. There&#x27;s also the thing where someone socializing with an &#x27;infected&#x27; individual gets treated as if they were infected as well. Better safe than sorry.<p>With a high false positive rate, you err on the side of safety. Smoke detectors have a high false positive rate by design. You&#x27;d rather it go off on accident every now and then than fail when there&#x27;s actually smoke. Present-day &quot;McCarthyism&quot; seems like a good example of this process in action.<p>To people who dismiss the idea of cancel culture, I say this: check out South-Korea. Celebrities are regularly driven to suicide by online mobs. It&#x27;s an epidemic. If a slight moral flaw is perceived, they&#x27;re fair game. And the mobs can be brutal.
mensetmanusmanabout 4 years ago
This ‘revitalized’ NYT should be viewed as a brand new organization (starting with zero respect).<p>Only then will you not be disappointed.
westoqueabout 4 years ago
&gt; We can befriend you for years, and then bite off your arm just as you’re offering us a treat. We can’t help it. It’s the nature of the job.<p>Something about this line irks me. I have a love-hate relationship with journalism because of this. I like that we are able to share stories through good communication and writing but on the other hand, being honest could (as the author said) &quot;bite&quot; you back. I just wish that we were honest about the interaction from the get go and not waiting for that a-ha moment to catch the person off-guard so they can support their own initiative, bias or story.
klmadfejnoabout 4 years ago
It seems to me one of the prominent issues in the &quot;racist&quot; dialogue is the nuance between people who are outwardly hateful and people who are outwardly indifferent to racial injustice. This guy probably doesn&#x27;t hate anyone, but it certainly doesn&#x27;t come across to me like he cares.<p>This part is a red flag:<p>&gt; So, yeah, I can be an asshole. If you’re an editor, and you made changes in a story of mine, and I lashed out at you like that, I’m very sorry. It wasn’t because of your race or sex or youth or anything else. You may have just been a set of initials in the margins of our editing software. That’s one part of me that’s not very nice, and I know it. If I did that to you, I apologize. And if you’ll tell me about it, I’ll apologize personally.<p>This seems like a red flag:<p>&gt; I’m surprised by how quick some colleagues who barely know me were prepared to accept those accusations and even add more on a Times alumni Facebook page. Someone to whom I don’t think I’ve spoken since 1994 said “calling him only a racist is being nice.” An editor I happily worked side by side with in 1989 and have had brief but cordial chats with maybe once every ten years when we bump into each other on the street said I seemed “dismissive of people of color and their views” back then. Someone I thought I’d been very nice to when she left the paper attacked me for using the expression “third world” in a story that was, as always, approved by several Times editors.<p>This sounds like a red flag:<p>&gt; My girlfriend thinks I have a high-functioning Asperger aspect to my personality — I’m empathic about suffering but I also very much misread audiences. A young Haitian-American colleague and friend who sat behind me for three years in Science news called me after the Beast story. I told him what I’d actually said in Peru. He said, “Donald, you sound exactly like my father. He would also say ‘You can’t dress like a thug to a job interview and expect to get the job.’ But from you, it sounds racist.” I said “How is ‘thug’ racist? What about Thug Life Records?” He said “It’s almost the equivalent of the n-word. Don’t you know about Marshawn Lynch?’’ I said: “He plays for Seattle?” I could hear him sigh. “No, Donald, let me explain…”<p>You can basically feel this guy&#x27;s personality as a cliche. He thinks he&#x27;s pretty smart. He constructs logical reasons to justify his action and doesn&#x27;t understand intuitively when others have strong adverse reactions to his reasoning.<p>In part 2 he provides this passage:<p>&gt; The question about blackface was part of a discussion of cultural appropriation. The students felt that it was never, ever appropriate for any white person to adopt anything from another culture — not clothes, not music, not anything. I counter-argued that all cultures grow by adopting from others. I gave examples — gunpowder and paper. I said I was a San Franciscan, and we invented blue jeans. Did that mean they — East Coast private school students — couldn’t wear blue jeans? I said we were in Peru, and the tomato came from Peru. Did that mean that Italians had to stop using tomatoes? That they had to stop eating pizza? Then one of the students said: “Does that mean that blackface is OK?” I said “No, not normally — but is it OK for black people to wear blackface?” “The student, sounding outraged, said “Black people don’t wear blackface!” I said “In South Africa, they absolutely do. The so-called colored people in Cape Town have a festival every year called the Coon Carnival* where they wear blackface, play Dixieland music and wear striped jackets. It started when a minstrel show came to South Africa in the early 1900’s. Americans who visit South Africa tell them they’re offended they shouldn’t do it, and they answer ‘Buzz off. This is our culture now. Don’t come here from America and tell us what to do.’ So what do you say to them? Is it up to you, a white American, to tell black South Africans what is and isn’t their culture?”<p>Another instance of him asserting pedantic reasoning against a hard emotional opinion. Material he knows well is making people uncomfortable, but believes he is not at all accountable for.<p>I don&#x27;t think he is a racist. I think he is highly likely to be perceived as an asshole by those around him. I think its highly likely that he aggravates sensitive issues, including racial issues, somewhat frequently. I probably wouldn&#x27;t want to work with him.
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spoonjimabout 4 years ago
This is an example of why I’ve changed from someone who openly discussed issues with people to a person who will only discuss “sports and weather” with my real name attached, such as at work, and then funnel the rest into a set of increasingly toxic Reddit alts.
prependabout 4 years ago
The lesson here is that there’s no meaningful conversations to be had between 60 year olds and teenagers. So just avoid them.<p>I know I seem like an old person, but there’s situations where I’ve had to talk to teenagers and the experience is surreal how different our realities are. And it’s definitely worse when the teenagers are rich. It’s all one can do to not freak out and start screaming like Annie Wilkes from Misery or Holden Caufield from Catcher in the Rye.<p>I was sitting in a classroom and the sentence I remember was “My dad says a [Mercedes] E Class is just the poor man’s S Class, I would never drive one even if you gave it to me.”<p>The mistake this person made was going on the trip. Trying to be “open minded” with teenage rich girls who chose to go on a Peruvian shaman vacation shows poor judgement.<p>Author says he was trying to do his friend a favor, but a $300&#x2F;day upside compared with just the mental pain of eating meals with teenagers for days is just not worth it.<p>This seems like NYT just using an excuse to fire him and the ideological madness is just cover.
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hahahaheabout 4 years ago
Even as a progressive who read the NYT religiously growing up in NYC, I stopped reading it in the past five years or so. It’s gotten so bad that I don’t think they can recover. The same goes for other highly regarded names in the newspaper business such as the Financial Times, WSJ, etc.<p>I think it’s simply a reflection of the dying industry. I get my news from Twitter directly from reporters that I respect.
sodality2about 4 years ago
Tangent but why is medium.com so bad? CPU usage is instantly 100% for the first 20 seconds after loading. Disabling JS has no visible effect but makes it load instantly.<p>Granted, I&#x27;m on an older laptop (AMD A6-7310 APU) but holy cow I thought I could at least browse the web on this thing for a few more years.
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khanmaytokabout 4 years ago
TL;DR?
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temp8964about 4 years ago
&quot;We make America what it is — without a free press, democracy dies.&quot;<p>The second part is certainly true. But are you sure about the first part? If you ask anybody who make America what it is, the answer &quot;journalists&quot; maybe won&#x27;t pass 10%.
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Hittonabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s regrettable, but the author seems to forget that he was part of an organization that has been spreading rhetoric which leads directly to this for years, now when he himself is bitten by this too, it&#x27;s surprised pikachu face.
wellthisisgreatabout 4 years ago
Pardon the ignorance but isn’t there a significant difference in how you pronounce this word? There is one way to say it that is the taboo version (phonetic spelling sort of) and another - with -a in the end which is how it’s used in songs etc.?<p>I have never heard the first pronunciation used in the US, but the second, accepted version is used everywhere, mostly by black people, but by white people too.<p>Even though white people using the accepted version may raise some eyebrows, it’s nothing compared to what I imagine would happen if the first, phonetic pronunciation was used.<p>Asking this because it seems many people here refer to rap &#x2F; movies &#x2F; street use of the word, where in 100% of the cases (besides maybe some historic prose) the word has been used in its modified, accepted form.<p>As for the first, historic&#x2F; phonetic pronunciation, it seems unreasonable to use it in any context, besides maybe speaking of some historical usage in prose etc., unless, of course, one actually intends to be offensive.
tengbretsonabout 4 years ago
This guy seems to really have a knack for writing with himself as the focus. Maybe he&#x27;ll find better fortunes outside of journalism.
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jxyabout 4 years ago
&gt; Obviously, I badly misjudged my audience in Peru that year. I thought I was generally arguing in favor of open-mindedness and tolerance — but it clearly didn’t come across that way. And my bristliness makes me an imperfect pedagogue for sensitive teenagers. Although the students liked me in 2018, some of those in 2019 clearly detested me.<p>So in the end, he still blamed those teenagers. Has he learned nothing?
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