TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Chomsky – The Machine, the Ghost and the Limits of Understanding (2012) [video]

171 pointsby nsomaruabout 4 years ago

14 comments

mcprwklzpqabout 4 years ago
Here is a later text version of this lecture: Noam Chomsky - Science, Mind, and Limits of Understanding. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;chomsky.info&#x2F;201401__&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;chomsky.info&#x2F;201401__&#x2F;</a><p>I tried to edit for brevity and summarise the main point here, too:<p>Mechanical philosophy originated with Galileo and his contemporaries, held that the world is a machine (device with gears, levers, and other mechanical components, interacting through direct contact) and could in principle be constructed by a super-skilled artisan. The way they viewed these machines is similar to the way we view computers today (compare with &quot;we live in a simulation&quot;).<p>Galileo insisted that theories are intelligible, only if we can “duplicate [their posits] by means of appropriate artificial devices.” The same conception, was developed by Descartes, Leibniz, Huygens, Newton, and others.<p>Descartes recognised “the creative aspect of language use” (and thought), a capacity unique to humans that cannot be duplicated by machines. The use of language is: 1) innovative without bounds, 2) appropriate to circumstances but not caused by them, 3) can engender thoughts in others that they recognize they could have expressed themselves.<p>Descartes invoked a new principle to accommodate these phenomena, a kind of creative principle (mind), res cogitans, which stood alongside of res extensa (body) (Cartesian dualism).<p>Newton showed that to account for the properties of matter (or res extensa or body) it is necessary to resort to interaction without contact, therefore matter is not a machine, and we do not have any definition of matter. The properties of the material world are “inconceivable to us,” but real nevertheless.<p>Since then in science we do not conceive of the world as a mechanism (the world is a machine that we explore and map) but we construct intelligible (the one that a machine can compute) theories about the world.<p>In summary: we can not know what the world is but we build theories about it that a machine can compute. The world is not a machine - our mind is a machine.<p>Also in there Chomsky subscribes to cognitive neuroscientists C.R. Gallistel and Adam Philip King critiques of neuroscience (mind is not computed by neural nets, but mabe by some chemical reaction inside cells, maybe by RNA, which may provide Turing complete set of operations).
评论 #26456685 未加载
评论 #26455422 未加载
ineedasernameabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t like Chomsky in his main area of expertise of Linguistics. My post-grad work was in NLP, embedded within a linguistics department, and requiring a heavy background in formal linguistics. A fair number of faculty, while appreciative of his contributions to the field, held him in low regard because he &amp; some of his main &quot;acolytes&quot; systematically worked to block any researchers in the U.S. working on ideas that ran counter to his own. Meaning more than a generation or more of advancement has stagnated in the US. Advancement in syntactic theory (his main contribution to linguistics) has tended to come from outside the US.<p>It&#x27;s possible this has changed somewhat since my formal education, but it was the status quo for quite some time.
评论 #26454267 未加载
评论 #26454014 未加载
评论 #26453553 未加载
评论 #26456447 未加载
评论 #26455220 未加载
评论 #26453829 未加载
评论 #26453573 未加载
评论 #26455491 未加载
评论 #26453903 未加载
评论 #26455473 未加载
waingakeabout 4 years ago
I found this Chomsky video last night. It&#x27;s from the late 80&#x27;s early 90&#x27;s. He&#x27;s really still in his prime here. He makes some really insightful calls on the direction of the emerging &quot;Information Super Highway&quot; in this as well.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=-kL0UNWcWFc&amp;feature=share" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=-kL0UNWcWFc&amp;feature=share</a>
评论 #26452085 未加载
评论 #26452509 未加载
kashyapcabout 4 years ago
I recently began educating myself about human language acquisition (a rabbit hole I was pursuing from another book, <i>Behave</i>). I learnt that there&#x27;s two main schools of thought—the &quot;innate instinct&quot; model (Chomsky et al) and its alternative, the &quot;usage-based&quot; model, which posits that language is &quot;an embodied and social human behaviour and seeks explanations in that context&quot;.<p>Here&#x27;s an open-access paper[1] that summarizes and contrasts both the models.<p>And if you, like me, find the &quot;innate instinct&quot; model to be an unsatisfying explanation, check out the following works:<p>- Michael Tomasello. See his excellent work on &quot;joint agency&quot; &#x2F; &quot;joint attention&quot; (as something that is unique to humans), human developmental psychology, and many other topics. He summarized his most recent book in this talk here[2].<p>- George Lakoff and Mark Johnson. See their classic work: <i>Metaphors We Live By</i><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.intechopen.com&#x2F;online-first&#x2F;usage-based-and-universal-grammar-based-approaches-to-second-language-acquisition" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.intechopen.com&#x2F;online-first&#x2F;usage-based-and-univ...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=BNbeleWvXyQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=BNbeleWvXyQ</a>
评论 #26454047 未加载
评论 #26454275 未加载
betwixthewiresabout 4 years ago
In the video a girl asks a question that he doesn&#x27;t seem to understand that I thought was interesting but he didn&#x27;t answer, and she got frustrated about it, but I stopped for a second and pondered it.<p>It was, if there are inherent limitations to cognitive capacity, does that not mean there is no free will, and therefore that morality does not exist, since morality is predicated on the idea that human beings can of their own free will do things, including things they shouldn&#x27;t?<p>When thinking about it I determined that the question is premised on this idea that with any limitation whatsoever free will does not exist. This is flawed. I cannot choose to levitate right now, but it does not mean I cannot choose to do anything. The absence of infinite options and capabilities does not negate the ability to choose to do things that I am capable of. In fact, I&#x27;d say it is the opposite, one cannot have free will with infinite capabilities because, as Chomsky put it, taking any form comes with the consequence that there will be limitation, and something without limitation would be without form, &quot;an ameboid&#x27; as he puts it, and so such a creature could not make decisions or take any action at all.
评论 #26452512 未加载
评论 #26453441 未加载
parhamnabout 4 years ago
This is slightly off topic and might be taken as rude, but it would be interesting to revoice Chomsky’s lectures with his voice from his younger years. Seems doable using tools today, no?<p>His pacing and voice made him a bit harder to follow in the recent decade for me.<p>This seems generally useful for other lectures with accents, bad pacing, etc. (going 1.5x is not the right solution). I’m not sure if lecturers would be happy with losing their voice’s ‘brand’ though.
评论 #26452231 未加载
评论 #26451823 未加载
评论 #26451755 未加载
评论 #26452842 未加载
slibhbabout 4 years ago
The idea that dualism was demolished by Newton, whose theories (just-so stories) forced us to forget the &quot;body substance&quot; and left us with only the &quot;mind substance,&quot; is very interesting. We tend to think of Newton as the exact opposite: someone who made a clockwork universe intelligible.<p>This perspective makes idealism seem inevitable. I wonder what Chomsky has to say about Kant.
评论 #26452454 未加载
评论 #26452449 未加载
TaylorAlexanderabout 4 years ago
Adding this to my watch list! Chomsky really helped open my eyes about the world. I never understood how certain structures of power maintain control over society until I started listening to him. I’m so happy many of his talks are on YouTube.
评论 #26451480 未加载
评论 #26451627 未加载
tikwiddabout 4 years ago
Here is my attempt at a summary (disclaimer: going from memory; watched this and related lectures during my MA thesis last year):<p>- Early scientific inquiry in the enlightenment period (by those who referred to themselves as &quot;philosophers&quot;, but who we would now call &quot;scientists&quot;) was based on the &quot;Mechanical Philosophy&quot;. At this time skilled artisans [who we might call &quot;hackers&quot; today] were creating sophisticated machines, e.g. clocks, talking machines and simulations of digestive systems.<p>-These new machines stimulated the minds of the scientist-philosophers in a similar fashion to the machine learning&#x2F;AI demos today. A nascent philosophy of science emerged at this time: they wondered if the whole universe was one giant machine, viewing God as a kind of skilled artisan who carefully tuned the universe, which as a result operated on the same mechanical principles. In this philosophy of science - the &quot;Mechanical Philosophy&quot; - everything in the universe can be understood in mechanical terms [which are intuitive to human beings; e.g. babies assume a hidden point of contact when shown a cause and effect at a distance]. In the Mechanical Philosophy, the nature of the universe is intelligible to us by direct observation.<p>- Newton, to his own dismay (and ridicule by his contemporaries), showed that the Mechanical Philosophy was incoherent, because the &quot;action at a distance&quot; posited in his theory of gravity could not be explained in purely mechanical terms. Chomsky argues that post Newton, the goals of science (&quot;philosophy&quot; at the time) became more modest: the goal of understanding nature&#x2F;the universe in direct terms [by applying intuitive explanations] was abandoned! Now we try to build _models_ of natural phenomena that are intelligible to us. The model is intelligible, even if the underlying phenomenon is not. All modern science works this way, e.g. quantum physics, chemistry, biology, linguistics.<p>- This is what Chomsky means when he says that Newton exorcised the machine, but left the ghost intact. We no longer seek mechanical explanations - the machine was exorcised from our theory of science - but the &quot;ghost&quot; is still there. After Newton, the problem was largely forgotten. But &quot;exorcising the ghost&quot; - i.e. forming theories about nature that are directly intelligible to the senses - is considered too hard to approach (you can&#x27;t even &quot;ask stupid questions&quot; about it.). Nobody in chemistry is trying to form directly intelligible theories of chemical bonds for example. We just expect the model to be intelligible.<p>- Chomsky argues that &quot;exorcising the ghost&quot; - understanding nature in direct mechanical terms - might be beyond the capability of our species. It would not be surprising that our species has inherent biological limitations such as this, since we are ordinary animals, rather than angels. Every other animal has well defined scopes and limits in their various capacities. The scopes of our capacities as a species go hand in hand with the limits. The science-forming capacity is just one aspect of our biological endowment, which is limited in this way. Plausibly, aliens watching us might observe that we are unable to make progress in certain areas of science due to these inherent limitations. [This ties somewhat into Chomsky&#x27;s view of language, as a biological system with inherent scope and limits].<p>Takeaway: we shouldn&#x27;t expect the study of all of nature to be reducible to the study of physics, or some unifying theory, as is often assumed. Two different models might be reducible or integrate (e.g., attempts to unify physics and chemistry), but this is not necessarily the case, because the study of physics is not &quot;closer&quot; to reality or more fundamental in any meaningful sense (since the study of physics is really just another set of intelligible models). Likewise, the models we use to study biological and mental systems are not necessarily reducible to physical models [it is only worth pursuing these unifications if they improve the study of one or another field, they are not useful goals in their own sake].
评论 #26452759 未加载
评论 #26452368 未加载
ilakshabout 4 years ago
Very interesting. One thing he touches on a little bit is our understanding of the mind. If anyone wants a very recent (philosophical?) take on how the mind works, check out Andy Clark&#x27;s book Surfing Uncertainty.
评论 #26453429 未加载
jokoonabout 4 years ago
What was this quote where he said that age was caused by sedentary lifestyle? Or something similar? I can&#x27;t find it.
waingakeabout 4 years ago
Can someone explain what he means when he says there is no physical?
评论 #26454791 未加载
评论 #26454028 未加载
mvhabout 4 years ago
PSA: Chomsky answers emails.
ketamine__about 4 years ago
Could someone link some good parts?
评论 #26451836 未加载
评论 #26452003 未加载