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The Ambiguous Utopia of Iain M. Banks (2009)

191 pointsby jasimabout 4 years ago

25 comments

libraryofbabelabout 4 years ago
&gt; CNN: Would you like to live in the Culture?<p>&gt; Iain M. Banks: Good grief yes, heck, yeah, oh it’s my secular heaven….Yes, I would, absolutely.<p>Iain Banks&#x27;s The Culture is my Utopia too.<p>Of all the worlds and societies of science fiction that I&#x27;ve read or seen on the screen, The Culture is the one I&#x27;d most like to live inside as an ordinary citizen. A society that has eliminated material scarcity. Life is centuries long, health and disease are solved problems. The lives of most of its inhabitants are largely devoted to self-actualization, the pursuit of happiness and meaning.<p>And... that sounds pretty good to me. Go climb in the mountains all day and come back and philosophize with friends around a camp fire. Learn architecture and design your home; make art; seek out new kinds of music. Spend 10 years mastering a new branch of mathematics, just for the sheer joy of learning. Travel between the stars, go to parties, fall in love, cultivate friendships - and when you want to be alone, go to your ranch in a desert for a month and just look at the stars. Explore what it means to be yourself under a hundred different suns, on a hundred different worlds, in a universe of boundless wonder.<p>Good grief yes, heck, yeah - sure as anything I want to live in that world.<p>Footnote: of course, the irony of the Culture books is that this kind of Utopian life isn&#x27;t terribly interesting for the plot of a novel, so you only see it in fragments. The books are mostly set around the edges of the Culture, where it comes into conflict with societies or individuals that don&#x27;t share its values. And they&#x27;re damn fun to read (I particular recommend _The Player of Games_ for those starting out.)
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GeoAtreidesabout 4 years ago
For people who hadn&#x27;t read The Culture series, some notes by the author, explaining what The Culture is: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vavatch.co.uk&#x2F;books&#x2F;banks&#x2F;cultnote.htm" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vavatch.co.uk&#x2F;books&#x2F;banks&#x2F;cultnote.htm</a><p>&gt;Language, entertainment, hormones — all of these resources are overseen by the Minds<p>This is a 100% false assertion made by the article author, I don&#x27;t understand how they came to this conclusion. In no way, shape or form is this true.<p>&gt; recommends that the whole planet be destroyed. Special Circumstances would handle that as well.<p>The implication made by the author is that SC and by extension The Culture, will actually destroy a planet full of sentients. This is false, as they didn&#x27;t destroy the even worse species of the Affront. The Culture respect diversity and further more they respect they rights of sentients.<p>Then the author asserts The Culture judges other civilizations by how close they are to values and priorities of The Culture itself. This is also false, like I said above. The author then mention the Idiran War, implicitly in support of his thesis that The Culture will go to war against civs that don&#x27;t share their values; he then fails to mention that 1) The Idirans were bankrolled by another equivalent civ (the same tech tier as The Culture) 2) they were acting as a homogenising swarm 3) parts of The Culture split over the decision to go to war.<p>In my opinion, the article really stretches some very small morally grey areas of The Culture just to try to paint the whole civilisation as not being a perfect utopia. But The Culture _is_ a perfect utopia and it was written and declared as such by the author. Yet everyone tries to find that small little thing that just proves the whole civ it&#x27;s not so perfect after all.
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kashyapcabout 4 years ago
If you&#x27;re new to the <i>Culture</i> series by Banks and are wondering where to start, I&#x27;d suggest <i>not</i> to start with the first book, <i>&quot;Consider Phlebas&quot;</i>. Instead, I&#x27;d strongly recommend to pick up the <i>second</i> one, <i>&quot;The Player of Games&quot;</i> — this thrilling book is a love letter to board games. It&#x27;s beautifully executed and an incredibly absorbing book for a newcomer.<p><i>Then</i> you can pick up <i>&quot;Consider Phlebas&quot;</i>. I&#x27;m glad I did my research and didn&#x27;t start with this. It has its many brilliant moments, but I had to show significantly more patience to finish it.<p>I&#x27;m now currently working my way through the fifth book in the series, <i>&quot;Excession&quot;</i>. It&#x27;s living up to the hype. (Two years ago, a Scottish man sitting next to me on a plane just wouldn&#x27;t stop talking about it when he saw me reading <i>&quot;The Player of Games&quot;</i>. I&#x27;m glad he badgered me to pick it up.)
dangabout 4 years ago
If curious, the interesting past threads appear to be:<p><i>The Culture War: Iain M. Banks’s Billionaire Fans</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25924560" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=25924560</a> - Jan 2021 (294 comments)<p><i>Why the Culture Wins: An Appreciation of Iain M. Banks</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16348885" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=16348885</a> - Feb 2018 (31 comments)<p><i>Iain Banks audio interview</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9749881" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9749881</a> - June 2015 (1 comment)<p><i>A Few Questions About the Culture: An Interview with Iain Banks</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8587447" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=8587447</a> - Nov 2014 (86 comments)<p><i>Iain Banks dies of cancer aged 59</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5849186" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5849186</a> - June 2013 (133 comments)<p><i>A Few Notes On The Culture, by Iain M. Banks</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5497905" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5497905</a> - April 2013 (1 comment)<p><i>A Personal Statement from Iain Banks</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5485236" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=5485236</a> - April 2013 (346 comments)
bhaakabout 4 years ago
I miss positive science fiction.<p>I don&#x27;t want to read or see science fiction that drags me down. Reality is grim enough as it is.<p>Show me fictional realities that inspire me to make them real.
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jameshartabout 4 years ago
Starting an essay on any topic with an assessment of just the <i>size</i> of the Wikipedia pages about it really doesn’t inspire confidence that the author’s research goes much beyond having brought up the Wikipedia pages and declared ‘gosh, those are long.’ It’s really only one stop short of opening the essay “Webster’s dictionary defines ‘culture’ as...”<p>Then the author makes a weird and baseless speculation: ‘I would not be at all surprised if Banks himself, in the writing of Culture novels, consulted Wikipedia to ensure consistency with his previous work.’ - most of the novels predate the very existence of Wikipedia; a page about The Culture was only added in 2009.
WJWabout 4 years ago
I love the culture series. It&#x27;s so unashamedly optimistic about how life &quot;could&quot; be, while exploring which problems even an absolutely utopian post-scarcity society with benevolent AGIs would encounter.<p>It is, as the article mentions, an absolutely intriguing mirror held up to our own society.
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philipkglassabout 4 years ago
The Culture is unobtainium-grade post-scarcity. The Minds and lesser AIs make computing and intelligence abundant beyond want. It also has effectively unlimited freedom of voice, freedom of exit, freedom of association, freedom to roam, and unlimited supplies of energy, matter, and manufactured goods. The only limits it can&#x27;t overcome are logical contradictions.<p>It has basically the same fictional technologies as Star Trek: powerful AI, FTL communication, FTL travel, replicators, transporters, and ridiculously abundant energy. But it is a far more wild and unrestrained What-If than Star Trek, which is probably why it has never been adapted to the screen. (An adaptation of <i>Consider Phlebas</i> was apparently a project for Amazon Prime for a while, but that was dropped.)<p>Consider for example transporter accidents&#x2F;paradoxes&#x2F;quirks. In Star Trek the question of identity and continuity going through the transporter is mostly shoved to the side, sometimes addressed in oblique character remarks, and occasionally rises to the forefront in an episode where somebody is duplicated or trapped in a transporter. Then the possibility of personal storage or duplication is set aside until the next rare occasion where it rises to Plot level.<p>In the Culture, having a molecular pattern backup of your body stored is <i>routine</i>, even among ordinary citizens. <i>Not</i> retaining a backup is unusual. Most Special Circumstances agents killed in the line of duty will be restored from backup, minus a few hours or days of memories. Only in wide scale conflicts, where backup data cannot be replicated outside the danger zone fast enough, are people in danger of involuntary permadeath. Star Trek has basically the same in-universe technology to make violent death reversible, but chooses not to pursue it, probably to avoid making things seem too weird to audiences.<p>But the future seen from the past <i>is</i> weird even when it includes only actually-realizable technologies. If you had a time machine and could show an audience of SF enthusiasts from 1940 a vision of things to come from technological change, 2010&#x27;s film <i>The Social Network</i> would be about the best you could do. It might also be baffling and off-putting to the sorts of people who liked SF stories of the time. Most people who enjoy SF prefer adventure stories with relatable characters and some plot-enabling or plot-driving tech gizmos. Visions of everything transfigured and rendered strange by technology or sheer cultural drift over time are less popular.
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elihuabout 4 years ago
&gt; Why was the wisdom of the Culture’s Minds not sufficient to foresee this mess? No explanation is given. Indeed, the Minds of Special Circumstances are surprised fairly often in these novels — in The Player of Games they seem to realize from the start that they don’t have the political situation on Azad figured out. There are only two inferences I can make here: either Banks is being careless or he is suggesting that even an intelligence capable of handling the everyday affairs of an Orbital containing thirty billion people is still not smart enough to figure out what sentient beings will do in response to conflict. One hopes the latter is the right inference; but if it is, it suggests that the power of the Minds is largely the power of control: they can predict and deal successfully with the behavior of those who speak their language and use their drugs, but have limited ability to manipulate others.<p>If I remember right, in Player of Games, the Culture simply didn&#x27;t have enough information to go on. It seems very weird to assume that even an infinitely powerful computer could accurately predict the behavior of a society it doesn&#x27;t have much visibility into.<p>I think the article also misunderstands the Minds and where their influence comes from. Most of the biological population of the Culture lives on ships or artificial structures, which are themselves almost like living things. A ship is essentially the body of the Mind that controls it, and the people are generally allowed to ride along. The people aren&#x27;t particularly controlled by the Minds, but the Mind decides where the ship goes. The Minds are powerful in that they control immensely powerful machinery and have access to enormous amounts of information and are able to process it. But at they same time, they&#x27;re also dependent on biological people when it comes to interaction with non-Culture societies, who tend to be more easily accepted than the machines themselves or their avatars.<p>Minds often disagree with each other on the basis of different degrees of risk tolerance and relative priorities. They&#x27;re definitely not infallible.
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worikabout 4 years ago
It is interesting to tread the culture novels in the order they were written.<p>Use of Weapons (I think written, but not published first) and Consider Phlebus (sp?) were quite dark and portrayed the Culture in a broader vision than the later novels.<p>I feel they are much better, and far more courageous than the later novels. He came to like his characters too much and could not let them die. The total cluster fuck at the end of Consider Phlebus and the dark and tragic ending of Use of Weapons would not happen in later novels.
nsmabout 4 years ago
For fans of Banks, who are looking for a analysis of the Culture books through the utopian lens, I highly recommend &quot;The Culture Series of Iain M. Banks: A Critical Introduction&quot; by Simone Caroti. To quote Fal N&#x27;geestra from Consider Phlebas:<p>&quot;Everything about us, everything around us, everything we know and can know of is composed ultimately of patterns of nothing; that’s the bottom line, the final truth. So where we find we have any control over those patterns, why not make the most elegant ones, the most enjoyable and good ones, in our own terms?&quot;
notsuohabout 4 years ago
This is a really good read. I absolutely love the entire Culture series.
chrisweeklyabout 4 years ago
If you&#x27;re new to the Culture novels:<p>* don&#x27;t worry about sequence &#x2F; chronology, they&#x27;re great in any order<p>* absent other guidance, try &quot;Player of Games&quot;. This was my first (and still, I think, my favorite) of the 6 or 7 I&#x27;ve read<p>* the unabridged audiobooks on audible are (other than the drm) fantastic; world-class narration, if you want to explore them that way. I love bouncing between modalities, using whispersync to keep in sync across kindle, audible and phone...
glangdaleabout 4 years ago
I find myself very happily rereading Iain M Banks before &#x27;93 and Iain Banks before &#x27;86. Anything later causes me discomfort, disgust or boredom.<p>His earlier stuff is an impressive achievement for any author, and I don&#x27;t begrudge him his long career (and am not going to argue with people who like it) but personally I found IB&#x2F;IMB incredibly disappointing in his later career.
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ahelwerabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;d heard a lot about the culture series and was in the mood for some optimistic sci-fi, so I picked up the first book in the series (Consider Phlebus). It was... not great. Now looking online I learn the series varies widely in quality and there are really only two or three novels people tend to genuinely really like. So do your research before jumping in.
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clortabout 4 years ago
It took me like 15 years to try Iain Banks non sci-fi books but oh boy.. I would recommend &#x27;Canal Dreams&#x27; as a starter, its not as .. raw as some of the others, and somewhat topical this week.<p>If you want to see how raw he could make it, The Wasp Factory&#x27; goes all the way to 11.
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5tefanabout 4 years ago
I wanted to like the Culture Books. Didn&#x27;t work out for me. Surface stories are weird to me and I don&#x27;t have a knack in finding undelying things.
wryroybattyabout 4 years ago
Martha Wells and Ann Leckie have less evenly distributed utopias, more dystopian perspectives. Well&#x27;s Murderbot is hilarious.
ggmabout 4 years ago
&quot;Ambiguous Utopia&quot; is the minor title of &quot;the disposessed&quot; by Ursula Le Guinea in 1974.
loegabout 4 years ago
(2009)
moonbugabout 4 years ago
Dunno what this guy was reading but I sure don&#x27;t recognise it.
ufmaceabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve read all of the Culture novels and do enjoy them. However, I can recognize it as a single-person utopia, which IMO makes it inherently unrealistic. I mean that it&#x27;s a utopia which exists entirely in the mind of one man. That means it has never had to face the issues of dealing with real people and real problems. Assumptions and presumptions that person has about how society works and why people do things are encoded into it. Many of these types of assumptions have been found wanting when they go up against real people. It&#x27;s even more of an issue with sci-fi, where you can make up any technology you want, and have it work any way you want.<p>For example, in the real world, drugs are a serious problem for many people. The libertarian assumption is that all of the problems flow from prohibition. I&#x27;m willing to believe that many of the problems do, but it&#x27;s quite clear that not all of them do. See the prescription opioid epidemic. In many of the cases, there are no issues with the quality of the supply or the cost of the drugs, but nevertheless, the users frequently overdose themselves or abandon everything and everyone in their life in the pursuit of more drugs. I&#x27;m quite doubtful that you could give everyone in the world &quot;drug glands&quot; that give them a hit of as much of any drug as they want anytime they want and not have a large chunk of the population die or become catatonic from opioid overuse, or go psychotic as tends to happen with overuse of stimulants like meth or cocaine, or something else.<p>And of course we have the Minds. Of course everything is nice and easy if you make up the fact that the Minds are perfect benevolent dictators who would never harm a human and always do everything legitimately for the greater good. Humans have never been able to do that, but hey, we made up some super-intelligent AIs that do, because I said so. We&#x27;ve never built a real super-intelligent AI, so we don&#x27;t know how it would be. Maybe it actually would be a perfect benevolent dictator. Or maybe not. Maybe it&#x27;ll be just like every human dictator we&#x27;ve ever had, happy to squash anyone who questions its rule. Maybe it&#x27;ll just wipe us all out for being inconvenient and messy. Maybe it&#x27;ll go off and do whatever it finds interesting somewhere else and ignore us. Who can say?<p>Bottom line is that it&#x27;s very easy to make a fake utopia of any ideology at all, as long as it&#x27;s all in one person&#x27;s head. A Nazi could just as easily write their own fake utopia where society did everything their way and it all just magically worked perfectly because of course they&#x27;re right about everything in their own minds. What happened to all the Jews, you ask? Why they just don&#x27;t exist in our imaginary perfect society! Don&#x27;t you dare ask any inconvenient questions, can&#x27;t you see we&#x27;re building a utopia here!
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Barrin92about 4 years ago
&gt;The Culture is neoconservatism on the greatest imaginable scale.<p>Exactly this. It was one of the first thoughts I had when people introduced me to the Culture and pitched it to me as a sort of socialist utopia.<p>I don&#x27;t even think Banks is aware of this himself given his own takes quoted in the article but the The Culture fundamentally isn&#x27;t a futurist utopia but a socially engineered, materially abundant liberal 19th century experiment in the broad sense of the term extrapolated into the future.<p>All difficult problems are effectively outsourced to the Minds, even language is understood in a Sapir–Whorf way as a tool to exercise social control. Criminals aren&#x27;t punished but ostracized and neutered in an &#x27;enlightened&#x27; way. Individual hedonism is basically the only activity left for people to engage in.<p>A lot of the problems of the Culture haven&#x27;t vanished but been outsourced to a kind of space CIA in the form of &#x27;Special Circumstances&#x27; which does all the ugly stuff the happy people of the Culture don&#x27;t want to deal with. Outwardly the culture is very aggressive in its attempts to assimilate everyone incompatible with the Culture. Contact between the Culture and other civilizations often leads to covert conflict. <i>Player of Games</i> being probably the best example, where the Culture basically sends a Bobby Fischer style character to a &#x27;backwards&#x27; empire to use a game competition as a means to topple the regime from within.<p>And for democracy in the Culture itself, even though in the eyes of the people the Minds are supposed to be a sort of magical democracy solving technology that just builds consensus in fair ways, we also learn that the Minds very much have minds of their own (no pun intended) in the book (can&#x27;t remember the title) that tells the story to us from their perspective.<p>Banks in general seems to me like Trotskyist who turned from Communist to Neocon (a very common phenomenon), with the twist that he doesn&#x27;t really seem to be aware of it at all and thinks he&#x27;s actually writing a genuine utopia. I&#x27;ve always liked that about the books the most because it actually in many ways to me makes the Culture a really good dystopian work where the author rather than trying to write one is actually trying to trick you into liking the Culture.
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tablespoonabout 4 years ago
&gt; In the one Culture story that refers to our planet, “The State of the Art,” Sma is among a group of Contact representatives who visit Earth in the year 1977. After a period of careful investigation, Sma argues — in the official report that constitutes most of the story — that the Culture needs to intervene to clean up the mess that human beings are making of our world. Were such an intervention to take place, Special Circumstances would spearhead it. However, one of her colleagues finds the Star Trek television series almost the only redeeming feature of Earth civilization and recommends that the whole planet be destroyed. Special Circumstances would handle that as well.<p>I&#x27;m not really a fan of the Culture, but that kind of blows up any illusions about it. The against-their-will homogenizing manipulations are one thing, but actual literal unprovoked genocide? If that&#x27;s an option what other kinds of skeletons can this utopia be assumed to have in its closet?
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304774169about 4 years ago
I created a bunch of hoodies based on the books a while ago because I was struggling to find something I wanted to wear, this is a shameless self plug but I suspect many of you will get a kick out of it and I&#x27;m not in it for the money. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.spreadshirt.com.au&#x2F;shop&#x2F;user&#x2F;304774169&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.spreadshirt.com.au&#x2F;shop&#x2F;user&#x2F;304774169&#x2F;</a>