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USB 3.0* Radio Frequency Interference on 2.4 GHz Devices (2012)

364 pointsby cyberlababout 4 years ago

36 comments

harhaabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m surprised this isn&#x27;t discussed more widely (though even vendors know about this [0]). My wireless Logitech mouse didn&#x27;t work properly when I had a hub connected to bring some connections to the front of my iMac (both with Bluetooth and the dongle the mouse had a significant lag).<p>It&#x27;s hard to believe that there is a standard and devices are widely deployed that mess so so much with their environment.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.logi.com&#x2F;hc&#x2F;en-us&#x2F;articles&#x2F;360023414273-Wireless-product-not-working-properly-when-also-using-a-USB-3-0-device" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;support.logi.com&#x2F;hc&#x2F;en-us&#x2F;articles&#x2F;360023414273-Wire...</a>
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karteumabout 4 years ago
I see a lot of misunderstandings in some comments : we are not talking here about desired RF emissions but about unwanted EMC emissions at harmonic frequencies which just happen to interfere with the regular 2.4 GHz devices.This has nothing to do with how much spectrum is allocated to wifi vs mobile vs whatever... Here it is only about EMC (and it is well known for years that USB is difficult with EMC and it requires a lot of care on the PCB design !). And USB3 is not the only product that leads to difficulties : there are for example a lot of debates (at least in Europe) now with regards to the impact of LEDs (which might surprise a lot of people). Another example are debates on Wireless Power Transfer (which are desired emissions but with very strong harmonics that affect sensitive radio services)
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jpm_sdabout 4 years ago
(2012)<p>It also interferes with GPS and Iridium. USB3 is a broadband jammer.<p>Previous thread on the subject: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24707479" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24707479</a>
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yummypaintabout 4 years ago
I have had USB 3.0 devices cause noise which gets picked up by silicon strip detectors in particle physics experiments. These days its common to have a computer in the target room next to the digitizers to avoid long analog cable runs. Now you have to be careful which USB port you plug into with what device.
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deweyabout 4 years ago
This is also the main reason why I&#x27;m switching everything back to cables. I can barely use my bluetooth headphones in my flat just because I&#x27;m using a USB 3 hub. Headphones randomly disconnecting in video calls is not a great experience.<p>Related: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;annoying.technology&#x2F;posts&#x2F;08834ce6ea3edc5a&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;annoying.technology&#x2F;posts&#x2F;08834ce6ea3edc5a&#x2F;</a>
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spicybrightabout 4 years ago
USB3 seems like such a sh*t storm.<p>Too many features, no standardized labeling for what cables support, not truly reversible connectors, dongles and hubs that barely work unless you drop hundreds, etc.<p>I&#x27;m hoping to god we learn for USB4.
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mfkpabout 4 years ago
Synology actually has an option in their routers to &quot;Downgrade USB 3.0 device to reduce interference of 2.4G signal&quot; (so I assume downgrading the USB 3.0 port to USB 2.0 speeds would decrease the interference)
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newhousebabout 4 years ago
I recently built a Bluetooth transmitter that can advertise by transmitting binary bits at 5gbps, which has essentially the same physical characteristics as USB 3.0 [1]. Whereas I used an FPGA, I wonder if one could intermingle the right bits amidst the rest of the USB 3.0 protocol to build a bluetooth transmitter...<p>It&#x27;s not surprising but still insane that so many USB cables aren&#x27;t properly shielded, thus making all of the FCC&#x27;s efforts regulating devices effectively useless as your USB cable turns into an antenna to transmit garbage.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;newhouseb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1352796299700162560" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;newhouseb&#x2F;status&#x2F;1352796299700162560</a> (note this is running at 6ghz, but also works at 5ghz w&#x2F; more noise)
seifertericabout 4 years ago
All the more reason to move to optical fiber+power cable like they were originally planning for thunderbolt&#x2F;USB3.
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behnamohabout 4 years ago
Unfortunately Macbooks have an unresolved issue where the Bluetooth and Wi-Fi interfere with each other. I&#x27;ve tried Bluetooth mouses on my 2015 MBP and as soon as I turn on Wi-Fi, the mouse cursor becomes &quot;jumpy&quot; and unstable. It&#x27;s so annoying that I switched back to wired mouses.<p>It&#x27;s crazy that the issue was reported as back as 2011, but Apple didn&#x27;t do anything about it.
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ChuckMcMabout 4 years ago
Ah yes, the Logitech fiasco. It is a great story of how several electrical engineers designing separately, and not understanding software impacts, could make a sub-optimal result.<p>The big takeaway is that at 5GHz signals often &quot;leap off the conductors&quot; at the slightest provocation. And clock skewing and other attempts at breaking data&#x2F;signal correlation have limited ability to counter this.<p>For a long time I had a USB 2.0 cable extender with an RF choke on it, that I would connect to USB 3.x hubs and then plug the Logitech transceiver into that.
anticristiabout 4 years ago
Nothing beats a proper wired network with a proper wired headset. Let mouse and keyboard send their 10 bytes per second wirelessly.
nimbiusabout 4 years ago
unrelated but interesting, certain resolutions of HDMI on the RPi will interfere with the 2.4ghz transciever, effectively jamming it.<p>2.4ghz is like the duct tape of the electromagnetic spectrum...everything runs there.
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thefabstaabout 4 years ago
We had lots of issues with USB3 cameras interfering with (RTK-) GPS receivers for a drone project [0]. When mounted on the drone, the receiver would just not get a fix, even in seemingly perfect conditions, i.e. unobstructed view of the sky, far away from buildings, no clouds, etc. One day, I randomly unplugged the cameras and suddenly the receiver started working. I repeatedly plugged and unplugged the USB3 hub just to make sure I&#x27;m not crazy. The GPS receiver would go from no fix at all to centimeter-level accuracy every time I unplugged.<p>We then used a spectrum analyzer to better understand the extent of the interference, tried shielding as described in the whitepaper, as well as separating the components physically as much as 30cm -- all without success. The only solution that worked was to replace the USB3 cables with USB2 cables and acquiring images at a lower frame rate.<p>I don&#x27;t even want to know how many people have been affected by these issues over the years. USB3 devices should come with a warning sticker on the box.<p>[0]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;lis-epfl&#x2F;vswarm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;lis-epfl&#x2F;vswarm</a>
nonninzabout 4 years ago
So THAT&#x27;s why plugging any USB3 external HD to my &quot;factotum&quot; home server breaks immediately all my home automation working on Zigbee.<p>And I thought the motherboard was defective...
baybal2about 4 years ago
Making a USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt device which doesn&#x27;t kill WiFi when they are working together is really, really challenging, but still possible in practice.<p>Things can go as extreme as covering the entire USB 3.0 lane on the PCB with a solid RF shield from the chip, to the connector.<p>Things such as above preclude any chance at USB 3.0 getting into cheaper product niches.<p>I once looked for a good USB 3.0 testbench laptop to test devices with, but found out that laptops themselves have terrible USB 3.0 RF isolation.<p>I went through many laptops of reputable brands, but the only laptop I seen where USB 3.0, and WiFi were working flawlessly was a very old Sony laptop from 2010.
mmcgahaabout 4 years ago
USB Thumb drives always mess with my wirelsess mouse. The first time that I encountered the problem was a huge waste of time.
AdmiralGingeabout 4 years ago
Obviously this isn&#x27;t going to be affecting a huge number of people in 2021, but if you listen to AM radio (I&#x27;m a bit of an anorak for Radio Caroline so I&#x27;ve been trying to pick that up) it&#x27;s amazing how much interference modern devices give off. The monitor I bought last month absolutely wipes out 648 kHz, and Apple&#x27;s Magic Trackpad 2 is a pretty bad offender as well.
NDizzleabout 4 years ago
Yep! I have a Jabra headset and I picked up a fancy newish Razer mouse that uses 2.4. Very odd system interrupt behavior slows the whole system down. I changed the mouse over to bluetooth and the problem goes away. It&#x27;s not as EXXXXXXTREME as using 2.4 on the mouse, but hey - the system isn&#x27;t so laggy now.
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jmb12686about 4 years ago
I have a cluster of raspberry Pis setup next to my SmartThings hub. I upgraded storage to use external SSDs via USB 3.0 cables. After that, all my ZigBee devices dropped communication with my hub. After some troubleshooting, I just moved my hub to a different room.
gardaaniabout 4 years ago
When I connect my external SSD to my MacBook, wifi dies because it operates at 2.4 GHz. I fix it by placing a metal plate (such as a mobile phone) over the wire between MacBook and SSD. It also helps to switch from the left side USB port to the right side USB port.
FullyFunctionalabout 4 years ago
Anecdata: Amazingly, I had just minutes ago had to relocate my mouse&#x27;s (MX Master 2S) wireless receiver because of this exact problem - and it&#x27;s the example used!
aidenn0about 4 years ago
Strange thing happened to me; I have a bluetooth dongle and headset. If I plug it into a USB3 port, it has a range of about 6&quot;. Fortunately my case has a pair of USB2 ports, and my MB has a matching header. When I wired those up, it works pretty much anywhere in the room. Since the BT dongle is a USB 2 device, I would have thought that the port would use the lower frequency and the EMI would be the same as a USB2 port. Not sure why it isn&#x27;t.
mdrznabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m having a weird issue with a cheap projector I bought on Amazon, every time I power it on, all the devices in it surrounding stop working with WiFi. All my LIFX lights disconnect, my phone cannot see the WiFi signal anymore, all until I turn the projector off. Could this be related? I don&#x27;t even know where to start diagnosing it.
tumblewitabout 4 years ago
The smallnetbuilder review of AC68u goes into detail on this. But I think newer wifi routers have fixed this that support USB ports.<p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smallnetbuilder.com&#x2F;wireless&#x2F;wireless-reviews&#x2F;32239-ac1900-first-look-netgear-r7000-a-asus-rt-ac68u" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.smallnetbuilder.com&#x2F;wireless&#x2F;wireless-reviews&#x2F;322...</a>
Waterluvianabout 4 years ago
Speaking of RF interference.<p>For the first time I bought myself nice headphones. And for some reason, unlike previous headphones, I can now hear very clear buzzing patterns any time my phone gets a Signal message.<p>I don&#x27;t get it. It&#x27;s not SMS, it&#x27;s Signal messages over LTE. And the phone isn&#x27;t connected to my headphones in any way.<p>And it just really diminishes my enjoyment of these things.
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lgierthabout 4 years ago
Yep, lots of interference with my bluetooth headphones. On Linux it gets a little better if you disable the wifi driver option for &quot;bluetooth coexistance&quot; (it&#x27;s named slightly differently between the various drivers).<p>I don&#x27;t actually use wifi, but I suppose it&#x27;s got something to do with wifi and bluetooth being handled by the same mPCIe card.
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andylynchabout 4 years ago
Learned about this recently - it seems semi notorious as a reason for devices like Zigbee transmitters to have soft failures.
cat199about 4 years ago
Thank you intel. Had to wrap the cable for my my iogear 3 port USB-C hub in a electrostatic bag to keep it from breaking wifi on my butterfly macbook pro for just this reason.
del_operatorabout 4 years ago
Pretty sure I encountered this on my Raspberry Pi 4 with WiFi and USB 3 devices. I don’t have a link to the forum, but I thought I remembered a discussion
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londons_exploreabout 4 years ago
Do all these devices therefore violate FCC rules about interference? Should we be asking the FCC to fine these device manufacturers?
CharlesWabout 4 years ago
Presumably this would also be true of USB 4 and Thunderbolt 4 (both which support USB 3.2 Gen 2x2), then?
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azinman2about 4 years ago
Wonder if this could be relied on for fingerprinting, exfiltration, or other creative uses...
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alexfromapexabout 4 years ago
Had this problem on my raspberry Pis with external SSDs
seanvkabout 4 years ago
I wonder if this can also interfere with Ant+?
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evilDagmarabout 4 years ago
TL;DR: Your Bluetooth dongle doesn&#x27;t work because you&#x27;ve plugged it into or right next to a USB 3.0 port which is jamming it to bits. Get any decent USB extension cable and connect it to a USB 2.0 port and everything will be fine.