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Please fix the AWS free tier before somebody gets hurt

840 pointsby forrestbrazealabout 4 years ago

96 comments

jiggawattsabout 4 years ago
Everyone: PLEASE stop making the argument that it&#x27;s &quot;too hard&quot; or even &quot;impossible&quot; to implement spending limits.<p>As the article points out: Every other cloud does this! They all have non-production subscription types with hard spending limits.<p>There&#x27;s a difference between &quot;unable&quot; and &quot;unwilling&quot;.<p>The people that refuse to understand the difference are the same people that don&#x27;t understand that &quot;unsupported&quot; isn&#x27;t synonymous with &quot;cannot be made to function&quot;.<p>Don&#x27;t be that person.<p>If you have a large account and you&#x27;re in regular contact with an AWS sales representative, <i>pressure them</i> into making this happen. Even if you work for Megacorp with a $$$ budget, keep in mind that your <i>future hires</i> need to start somewhere, need to be able to learn on their own, and need to do so <i>safely</i>.<p>Don&#x27;t walk down the same path as IBM&#x27;s mainframes, where no student anywhere ever has been able to learn on their own, making it a dead-end for corporations who pay billions for this platform. You, or your company will eventually pay this price if AWS keeps this IBM-like behaviour up.<p>Think of the big picture, not just your own immediate personal situation.<p>Apply this pressure yourself, because the students you want to hire next year can&#x27;t.
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artichokeheartabout 4 years ago
AWS employs cost obfuscation by design otherwise the default view when you open the console would show you all of your current active services. Not only is that not the case, a single screen to show you all of your current active services doesn&#x27;t exist. You need to take a deep dive into cost explorer (assuming you have access in corporate land) and try to decipher in what that all means.
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adamparsonsabout 4 years ago
I cancelled an account 2 years ago because no matter how much I explored cost manager or any regions I used, I can&#x27;t find why I still get billed a small dollar or so a month.<p>I still get bills on the 3rd of each month, followed by a &quot;we can&#x27;t charge your card&quot; (I removed it when they pulled this shit) followed by a few days later you get the &quot;hey we&#x27;re gonna suspend your account if you don&#x27;t pay&quot;<p>Yeah cool, I only closed the account 2 years ago now, go right ahead and suspend&#x2F;close&#x2F;do whatever you&#x27;ve gotta do, I stopped caring.
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eric4smithabout 4 years ago
Yup. Got charged over $800 for &quot;experimenting&quot; with a DynamoDB database and forgetting to delete it afterwards.<p>Sure, I called customer support and they reversed the charges. But something the nice lady on the other end said as she chuckled: &quot;This happens all the time&quot;.<p>DigitalOcean is the worst with the dormant accounts. Just got dinged around $2.40 on my credit card. Going into DO I could not find what was causing that charge. There was nothing there. Wuuuttttt.
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nemothekidabout 4 years ago
&gt; <i>“It’s the student’s responsibility to know what they’re deploying.”</i><p>Anyone who seriously argues this is 100% unaware of the quagmire that is AWS billing. There are companies with entire teams built around just optimizing AWS billing - it&#x27;s whole unsurprising that some AWS feature actually spun up 5 separate AWS features that end up being billed.
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anonytraryabout 4 years ago
Can confirm. <i>Default</i> ElastiCache clustering option chooses an extremely high compute node, I ended up accidentally spending $1300 in a month just for testing some Redis clustering script. The minimum option ends up only costing a few dozen dollars a month. The billing alert did not even trigger until the very end of the month, so I got a $1300 surprise. I complained about it to AWS, mentioning how misleading their shit was, and they ended up refunding me $800. Still -- a $500 mistake anyone could make at 11pm. They also made it extra clear in their response that they are not legally obligated to refund me, and that they were doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.<p>AWS console is some next level outdated shit that needs to be improved. GCP&#x27;s console is way cleaner IMO. I really hope AWS fixed this after this happened to me, but somehow I doubt they did.
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HumblyTossedabout 4 years ago
&gt; Corey Quinn, your first and last stop for any question that touches AWS billing, has called for an updated free tier that treats “personal learning” AWS accounts differently from “new corporate” accounts, and sets hard billing limits that you can’t exceed.<p>This would be good.<p>I don&#x27;t normally do &quot;cloud&quot; stuff. It&#x27;s just not my skill set. But I have looked at it on occasion and one thing that turns me off is my inability to know if I&#x27;m going to fuck myself with a large bill from some of these services.
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sprynrabout 4 years ago
I had a class last semester where we were required to use AWS. Our professor tried his best to teach everyone how to be responsible with their tool use and how to predict their costs (As well as how to set up a free education account and get AWS credits). I was amazed when final presentations rolled around my group had a total cost of 4.30 dollars after 5 months of uptime and use, while other groups had costs ranging from 30 to 150 dollars! I use AWS for my job so I guess I just never really went through those growing pains, but no system should be that easy to rack up costs unknowingly.
version_fiveabout 4 years ago
I had an AWS account that charged me like $6 per month for a year after I thought I had turned everything off. I finally went on a hunt for what was causing it, and had to escalate to support to find it. This was 11&#x2F;12 my fault I admit, I should have been on it after the first month.<p>More recently, I was looking for a cloud GPU provider, and tried a different provider that I won&#x27;t name. I tried out a ~$3 per hour instance, and shut it down after maybe 20 min. A few hours later I (thankfully) started getting billing alerts that my bill would be $1500 ish at the end of the months if my usage kept up. I couldn&#x27;t find anything still running, could not get anything from support (they had some kind of chat support that told me to open a ticket), first opened a ticket then after and then after ab hour shut down my account as a last ditch effort. At which point they promptly emailed me an invoice for the $16 I had incurred during the time before I cancelled. The help desk relied to my ticket like a week later, asking for more information.<p>Needless to say, I won&#x27;t ever use that company again, but it could have been a lot worse, even more so if I was a student or someone who blew their whole experimentation budget on whatever mistake I made.
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chpmrcabout 4 years ago
Funny story: I keep receiving a $0.01 monthly invoice from AWS for a very old account (opened 5+ years ago) I have lost access to. I have no idea why (the invoice doesn&#x27;t list the services being used) and the associated credit card has expired a long time ago. They requested <i>notarized documents</i> to prove my identity. Obviously I&#x27;d rather settle my $6 (+ interest) debt 50 years from now than give hundreds to a notary today!
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mjthompsonabout 4 years ago
Oracle - of all businesses - got this right. I know, I&#x27;m in shock too.<p>In Oracle Cloud Infrastructure, after your credit is exhausted, you have to explicitly opt in to billing or else they stop all paid services for you.<p>Moreover, you can choose to keep billing disabled and use their free services without fear of unknown costs.<p>AWS have just decided to run with a policy of offering refunds when people make mistakes. Unfortunately, some people are ignorant of this, or too timid to ask for their money back.
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sebasvisserabout 4 years ago
I thought I was just to incompetent to figure out how to stop an instance…so I just gave up while watching my creditcard getting billed for about €20 each month.. Last month I went full on and spent a few hours removing everything on every screen I could find. After many hours of failing to remove an instance because you have to stop a thingie from auto starting on another screen first…and another thingie from running there. I finally managed to remove all the instances…<p>Then two months later, I still get a bill for a few €…<p>I give up.<p>I Hate Amazon
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WORMS_EAT_WORMSabout 4 years ago
If you delete your AWS account you will still be charged if you don’t remove &#x2F; terminate some of your services for up to 90 days!<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;premiumsupport&#x2F;knowledge-center&#x2F;close-aws-account&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;premiumsupport&#x2F;knowledge-center&#x2F;close...</a>
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slicsabout 4 years ago
I used the free tier account to play around for a while. I thought I had deleted everything before the end of the year free tier. I was wrong! For 2 months I paid $10 as I could not figure it out what the heck was running.<p>I had to close my account in order to stop the charges. Today when I hear anyone speak of AWS free tier for a year, first thing I warn them about is to make sure they keep track of what they create so they will know what to delete, otherwise they will keep buying Starbucks every month to AWS.
HomeDeLaPotabout 4 years ago
Is there seriously no way in AWS&#x2F;Azure&#x2F;GCP to specify &quot;Here&#x27;s my budget, shut everything down if I exceed $X&quot;? I don&#x27;t use those platforms much but was always surprised I couldn&#x27;t find anything like that right off the bat. I&#x27;ll build cloud stuff if it makes sense at work, but if I&#x27;m footing the bill I&#x27;ll stick to something that can provide an actual upper limit.
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ineedasernameabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand why there isn&#x27;t at least a setting that says &quot;turn everything off if I hit $x.&quot;<p>Then just given people a certain grace period to reactivate or get their data out before it&#x27;s removed.<p>It wouldn&#x27;t fix production deployments where you want alarms, not a shutdown, when you hit spending caps, but it would help people on the dev stage to avoid issues like this.
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Johnny555about 4 years ago
As a personal user, I wish they gave two options to fix this.<p>Option 1:<p>When credit balance reaches a certain level (or monthly spend reaches a certain level), initiate a resource stop on every resource that can be stopped without data loss. This would still incur charges for some things like EBS volumes, S3 data, etc, but at least it would slow the bleeding.<p>Option 2:<p>I don&#x27;t care about data loss, just terminate everything when I hit the threshold. This should require a double-opt in and maybe a warning banner in the console UI.
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forrestbrazealabout 4 years ago
Author here. I just updated the post with an additional idea for fixing the free tier, suggested by several readers.<p>It turns out there is a non-widely-known program called AWS Educate Starter Accounts [0], which give no-credit-card access to a limited but useful subset of AWS services. The problem is that you can only get access to these accounts through student affiliation with a participating educational institution like a high school or university.<p>It might be more feasible to expand this program, say to any applicant who demonstrates some reasonable threshold of non-bot-ness, than to re-engineer the normal free tier.<p>To any AWS people reading this: I believe this could be a useful step toward solving the free tier problem, and would be happy to be a sounding board.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;education&#x2F;awseducate&#x2F;aws-educate-faqs&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;aws.amazon.com&#x2F;education&#x2F;awseducate&#x2F;aws-educate-faqs...</a>
cookguyrufflesabout 4 years ago
Arguably discovering surprise bills absolutely should be part of the free tier, how else can you mentally prepare for running something in production on AWS?
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ipaddrabout 4 years ago
I tried signing up with a prepaid credit card and they refused the card so I moved on. It&#x27;s setup for massive profits on minor mistakes. The risk on a free tier is like shorting a stock, one bad day and you go bankrupt unless you have a connected twitter account.<p>Sounds like a new dystopian future that is best not to be part of.<p>When IBM ruled or Microsoft or AOL things you had one main evil corp. We&#x27;re in a period where Google, Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook can appear the hero or villian depending on the day but the sum of the faangs is much greater than the worst evils of the original megacorps. Could you envision forced unlimited billing on a free tier with no ability to limit charges on the account?
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okareamanabout 4 years ago
When I read about the myriad predatory practices of Amazon I think about who the predator is and the saying &quot;the fish rots from the head.&quot; I&#x27;m looking forward to the day Jeff Bezos pays the price for being the predator that he is.
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technionabout 4 years ago
I have a couple of $20 AWS vouchers from various things. I kind of want to give them to juniors and tell them to go and learn the product. But I won&#x27;t, because if someone incurs a charge accidentally it&#x27;ll be on me.<p>These threads always open a discussion about how hard limits would be unacceptable to some businesses, but the opposite also applies in other scenarios.
Vasloabout 4 years ago
I took a grad course course 2 years ago on cloud computing and we were showed how to setup a student account. I ran a few machines, shut them down, mostly did the stuff on a local server.<p>Suddenly I started getting hit with these real small charges each week. I never did figure it out and I certainly didn’t willfully authorize them. I just paid and then I annoyed them to shut off the account. I never could figure out what they were for.<p>I know many of you would hate this but I would love an option to shutdown everything until the bill is paid option. I bet the description of what I was paying for would have been a lot more helpful if they were losing the business then when they just auto charged!
uglygoblinabout 4 years ago
AWS was charging me 0.50¢ a month for over a year for an account that was tied to a Google Suite email address for a failed startup I was part of.<p>I couldn&#x27;t recover access to the account. They couldn&#x27;t figure how to give me access. They wouldn&#x27;t just remove my credit card from the account.<p>One month the charge became $10 so I called my bank and had them block AWS charges. It seemed the only way to deal with the fear that someday that would creep up and up.
0xmohitabout 4 years ago
This appears to be by design. People have been demanding a budget capping service [0] for a decade now. AWS would continue to bill for compromised accounts [1]. AWS &quot;free&quot; offerings can cost a lot more than you think [2].<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3356987" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=3356987</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20045615" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=20045615</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22988647" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=22988647</a>
moolcoolabout 4 years ago
I once had a cloud computing class and a lot of it was based on the AWS free tier. The number of students who got dinged and needed the professor to pull strings was... too many.
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banana_giraffeabout 4 years ago
The thing that always gets me: I _think_ some of this is a solved problem within AWS. I&#x27;ve never used it before, but the AWS Educate &quot;offers students no-cost access to a specified, capped amount of AWS cloud resources without requiring a credit card for payment&quot;.<p>That sounds a lot like what I want a free tier to be. Let me play for a bit, set hard guard rails so I can&#x27;t accidently spend $100, or much much worse. I mean, I can understand requiring a CC to do this, but that&#x27;s mostly so I don&#x27;t spin up a ton of free accounts and also so the friction to going to a paid plan is lower.<p>It&#x27;s too late for me, my personal AWS account is well outside of the free tier, but the first time I spun on a large instance to test it out I was so insanely nervous I&#x27;d screw up and end up with a huge bill. I can totally see someone else backing out at that point out of fear, but if I knew I&#x27;d hit the guardrail before spending money, even if it meant losing an instance, I&#x27;d have totally be happier to play around.
kossTKRabout 4 years ago
Lots of companies also gets hacked each month for thousands of dollars because some key to S3 with too many privileges gets leaked.<p>The entire system is completely sinister. The fact that keys pertaining to S3 has anything do with being able to start hundreds of VM&#x27;s in different parts of the AWS system or do whatever is bad.<p>I&#x27;ve seen companies be ruined by this, and it&#x27;s in no way obvious how stupid their system is. You have to read huge manuals to know how to &quot;only give access to s3&quot; through a key.<p>Instead of starting with &quot;no access&quot; then adding atomized access you have to understand this extremely complex &quot;json privilege system&quot;. Instead of just programming, this is the only allowed IP, the is the only allowed bucket, this is the only allowed service, and my max is 200usd, or something to that effect.<p>Also the fact that a key can start new services that are billable is almost criminal in my mind when people don&#x27;t even gen an email when it happens - makes zero sense.
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civilizedabout 4 years ago
Anyone who asks you for a credit card or other means to bill you for a &quot;free&quot; service intends to steal money from you without your consent
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yawnxyzabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve stayed away from AWS for these reasons. Instead I use systems on top of AWS, like Vercel etc.<p>Is it ironic that Amazon&#x27;s mantra is to be &quot;Customer obsessed&quot; yet AWS is so magnificently confusing for anyone not doing it full-time?<p>As a designer I&#x27;ve used plenty of Digital Ocean, Vercel, Cloudflare Workers and other static hosts without a problem... I&#x27;ve never been able to figure out how to even start on AWS, and all these horror stories constantly make sure I stay away
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Silhouetteabout 4 years ago
The crazy thing is, this obvious (to anyone experienced in business, at least) danger must be costing AWS money. I personally know of small businesses who have entirely avoided AWS even though it might have been a good fit for their needs in most respects, entirely because of concerns about the opacity of the billing and the inability to add safeguards in case something goes wrong. Some of those businesses are no longer small, either. AWS does have a reputation, at least among those more familiar with cloud services, for being reasonable about unexpected charges and probably putting something right if it was obviously not intended. But in that case, they aren&#x27;t even pulling some sort of dark pattern scam to make more money here, and the lack of last resort safety features makes even less sense...
Draken93about 4 years ago
I am a student in the same age. When I wanted to start a hobby project I looked into the AWS free tier too. It is so unclear how the end costs come together that I decided to just leave AWS alone.<p>I rented a small cloud instance from HETZNER for ~ 3€&#x2F;month and host everything myself. If I need a DBaaS I go with the MongoDB Atlas or ElephantSQL free tier.<p>I prefer constantly paying 3€, over a free account that breaks my neck if I miss something.
tr1ll10nb1llabout 4 years ago
The exact thing happened to me one year ago, I was 17 and using my dad&#x27;s credit card to test out Lambda and SageMaker, I had assured him it won&#x27;t cost anything since I&#x27;d be using the free tier.<p>However, my application instance somehow kept running ( was a total noob to AWS ) and I got charged over $300 the next month when I got a monthly report in an email. I panicked and literally just deleted my account. Yes, I just nuked my account like the article mentions. AWS never reached out after that.
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kaydubabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m in agreement with the cloud providers over those of you wanting a hard shutdown.<p>Businesses, the entities that are paying the most money to AWS, will NOT want a hard shutdown. When you generate revenue off of your SaaS service maybe you&#x27;ll understand.<p>No, I won&#x27;t be pushing my TAM to enable a forced shutdown due to budget metrics.<p>Not to mention, how does AWS decide what to shutdown and what to delete? It&#x27;s not like it&#x27;s only running resources that cost money, what about all my data that&#x27;s stored???
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jerrysievertabout 4 years ago
I had an AWS account for one of my businesses, and decided to bring it in-house about 2 months ago.<p>went through the account deletion, and got yet charge&#x2F;another bill today - account is deleted, so can&#x27;t log in to see why I&#x27;m being charged.<p>hopefully their support will help out, but not holding my breath.<p>editing to add: billing was for db backups, I terminated the db, and no clue how to remove the automatic backups it made. of course I can&#x27;t log in to look any further.
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commandlinefanabout 4 years ago
&gt; It was ‘just’ $200, that’s not the end of the world<p>A $200 charge would have been devastating to me when I was in college. As in, I may have to beg for food devastating.
WrtCdEvrydyabout 4 years ago
The issue here is really Billing... AWS Budgets allows you to set a budget as far down as $1 USD... however because billing is done piecemeal, it is possible to have up to 24 hour delay for charges...<p>You can spend $500,000 on AWS in 24 hours, it&#x27;s not difficult, it&#x27;s not easy but you totally can blow past your &quot;budget&quot; because it&#x27;s not a hard cap.
manigandhamabout 4 years ago
A major problem is that there&#x27;s no easy way to see all resources in a single view for any cloud.<p>Azure comes closest in the dashboard but still misses some items. GCP has an Asset Inventory page in the Security section for an organization. AWS can use the Tag Editor to browse all the regions. It&#x27;s notable that none of them have a single clear page though.
throwawaaarrghabout 4 years ago
Oh come on. We all know that the &#x27;accidental revenue&#x27; from the way Free Tier is set up probably makes up a cool 2 million or more annually. Plenty to justify its continued abuse of naive students. Why would they walk away from that cash? The only people they&#x27;re pissing off is people who aren&#x27;t using AWS anyway.
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jan_Inkepaabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve gotten thousands of euro of &#x27;free&#x27; Amazon cloud credits over the years, and would love to have used tried it out for cloud computing&#x2F;GPU stuff, but the opaqueness of pricing means I won&#x27;t touch it (except for S3 backups) - I just don&#x27;t trust myself enough to not mess up.
Waterluvianabout 4 years ago
Last month I woke up to an amazon alert that our usually $5000 monthly bill was $125 000.<p>I ran to my computer too fast to have time for a panic attack. Turns out my company bought some services through AWS and it was all kosher.<p>I wish it wasn&#x27;t possible to rack up such a bill by accident so I don&#x27;t have to worry.
jacobsimonabout 4 years ago
Just speaking from personal anecdotes, every time I’ve accidentally been charged for something on AWS that I didn’t intend, their support team has refunded me without much hassle. Things may have changed in recent times but I’ve found them to be pretty reasonable about it.
ashneo76about 4 years ago
AWS is not the cloud. There are others. Please try something else. As someone with extensive professional experience with it day in and out, it is overrated.<p>Also, the cloud is someone else&#x27;s computer. It is either AWS or GCP or something else. Move to what works, for you.
sunsipplesabout 4 years ago
At one point I tried using AWS trial for an app, didn&#x27;t work out, cancelled the account (or so I thought) only to find 2 years later some charges to my bank of $2k and when I spoke to AWS support, there was another $4k accruing for this billing period. Took ages to sort out, while they eventually did refund the amount, I was still out of pocket exchange fees (X2) the exchange rate also meant I was out more money. In total I think having a compromised yet closed AWS free trial cost me $350 over a 6week period some 2 years after closing it.
throwawaydgabout 4 years ago
We were inexperienced, got picked up by a tiny VC and funded for a few thousand. We applied and got accepted into the Digital Ocean Hatch program, they threw $100,000 in credits at us to help us succeed.<p>We tried to exhaust the supply—one day the credits vanished. I was getting married that month, and it took that long to accrue a life-changing amount of real dollar debt. I sent a quick email asking DO to extend the credits. The last email I got from them was that &quot;we expect you pay the full amount&quot;.
Camilloabout 4 years ago
Yes, there should be easier ways for learners to experiment with AWS without risk. In general, people should be made aware of how much something could cost them before they can agree with it. We have regulations towards this end when it comes to investments. Huge unexpected bills used to be a big problem with phone companies, and it took a lot of effort to move past it. I hope the cloud industry can make progress in this direction.<p>What I&#x27;m going to say next should not be taken to detract from that in any way.<p>(And I know you don&#x27;t want to hear it, and I could just save everyone some trouble and not say it. But I&#x27;m going to say it.)<p>When I read this:<p>&gt; please help I made a ticket and called support but i really need to make sure this is dead please Im 20 i really dont have $200 for them please help<p>I honestly did a double take when I got to the &quot;20&quot;. If you&#x27;d put a blank in there and asked me to fill it, I would have said &quot;13&quot;. I&#x27;m still not 100% sure that the blogger didn&#x27;t alter the age to obfuscate personal details.<p>I don&#x27;t mean to single out this person as especially immature, quite the opposite: the interesting thing is that they assume that a 20 year old is obviously a smol bean who could not possibly be expected to figure out AWS billing or come up with $200, _and we agree_. The notion didn&#x27;t stand out as surprising to the blogger, or to any of the other commenters on HN so far.<p>I&#x27;m not saying they&#x27;re wrong! I just find this a remarkable signal of how far we, as a culture, have gone in extending childhood well into college age.
grumpyautistabout 4 years ago
This is the reason I closed my aws account and gave up on learning their services. Intentional cost obfuscation means I have no interest in doing business with someone
aprdmabout 4 years ago
I really recommend using something like Linode for cheap throwaway, might be a bit more expensive (i.e: 5 per month), but the surprise factor disappears..
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raverbashingabout 4 years ago
I agree with most of the points brought there except for:<p>&gt; I’ve personally got a dormant AWS account that’s charging me cents every month, and I bet you do too.<p>Hummm no? And if I have a charge line and I can try to chase it. It&#x27;s not like that cent is nameless, it has a name and it has a way of figuring it out?<p>I mean, it can be not so obvious but it&#x27;s not like it&#x27;s totally opaque neither
compsciphdabout 4 years ago
20+ years ago I was offered a free 2 or 3 month subscription to compuserve. I was interested in it, as one could dial in as PPP account for internet access. So I configured my linux box to dial in and if the connection dropped, to redial.<p>After the 2nd month I get a huge multi hundred dollar bill. They claimed over the the 2 months I had used 2k-3k hours of time an their free months were limited to 750 hours a month of usage.<p>As I pointed out, that should be enough, as 24*31 = 744, so it should be impossible for me to use more than 750 hours a month.<p>They claimed that I must have been dialing in from multiple locations. I denied that and said they should have records of where I was calling in from. It took weeks for them to &quot;forgive&quot; the debt, without acknowledging that their billing was broken.<p>I always wondered how many other users got hurt because of this (my guess is not that many, as relatively few people were keeping their connection alive 24&#x2F;7 via compuserve back in the 90s)
dom96about 4 years ago
This is precisely the reason I have avoided AWS as a student and to this day I prefer providers that have clear billing like DO.<p>I don’t understand why anyone would use AWS when there is a risk of being charged stupid amounts of money if you screw something up. Are there advantages to AWS that I’m not seeing?
sireatabout 4 years ago
I refuse to let my students touch AWS directly exactly because of this infinite billing problem.<p>My current workaround is finding some SaaS provider that is willing to take the risk on free accounts and act as a middleman.<p>Currently using aiven.io - downside: this covers only a small subset of services that aws offers.
cddotdotslashabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s absolutely unacceptable that AWS hasn&#x27;t fixed this, but in the meantime, would using a privacy.com temporary credit card with a ~$20 limit when signing up help? I&#x27;m unsure if those kinds of cards can be detected&#x2F;blocked by AWS, or if they do.
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up6w6about 4 years ago
I want to point out that I just tried to access my AWS Educate Account today to explore the panels and found:<p>&quot;ALERT-1: Session time behavior and instance types in your Starter Account will be changing on May 11th, 2021. After this date: 1. When your session ends, your resources will be “stopped.” You will be required to re-start your resources when you start a new session. 2. Updates will be made to available instance types. We recommend you to complete currently running work in your Starter Account by May 10th, 2021 as work using instance types that are no longer supported will be lost after that date.&quot;<p>Im still thinking about what can I do with 3 hours (duration of a session) of EC2 computing power...
tmk1108about 4 years ago
I had an account with AWS about 6 years for a small prototype and I closed it after using it for 1 month. However for some reason I got an email last November about a change to some certificates for either S3 or Cloudfront because my account used one of those services in the last 6 months.<p>I don&#x27;t know if this is a mistake on their part, but I haven&#x27;t been charged in the last 6 years or gotten any emails before that. But it&#x27;s still worrying because the account is closed and I have no way through standard support to know why they think my account was using their services
kl13ntabout 4 years ago
As a student trying out the AWS platform (I&#x27;m not even a devops&#x2F;backend&#x2F;anything related to it) I found it painful to use when compared to other providers. They keep building new products that build on existing products such as Elastic Beanstalk that assigns a LOT of resources you don&#x27;t even need to host a nodejs app, etc. Even reaching the billing panel was painful. You have to go through at least 3 screens just to get to the &quot;billing&quot; screen. And then you have to browse inside of that to reach your bills. It&#x27;s disgusting.
taftsterabout 4 years ago
Another solution to this problem is the availability of disposable credit cards. It would be ideal that credit card numbers could just be created from scratch, as needed, and turned off whenever the use was done.<p>We had promises of this as ecommerce took off, to help avoid fraud. But it seems these don&#x27;t get widespread adoption, probably because purchases are easy to get chargebacks for (in general).<p>A hard limit for cloud purchases is surely needed. But because the cloud providers aren&#x27;t giving us this, I&#x27;m wondering if a solution like disposable cards could?
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StratusBenabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m Co-Founder of <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;vantage.sh&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;vantage.sh&#x2F;</a> and we allow you to connect your AWS account(s) and we&#x27;ll monitor cloud spend on your behalf.<p>We send out regular cost report emails to try and help folks avoid situations like this and have some future plans around anomaly detection to try and help out in advance of things like this happening.<p>I strongly encourage folks to sign up and let us monitor things on your behalf. We have a free tier that likely covers a lot of personal users here.
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pirsquareabout 4 years ago
This is the problem with usage based pricing. It is very lucrative pricing strategy because it works for lower end of market as well as enterprise users. One way to resolve this is to offer fixed tier based pricing for customers who may be more sensitive to prices and usage based pricing for enterprise clients.<p>For example.<p>Starter ($5&#x2F;mo) - Use up to 100,000 API calls each month.<p>Growth ($30&#x2F;mo) - Use up to 1,000,000 API calls each month.<p>Enterprise ($149&#x2F;mo) - Use up to 10,000,000 API calls each month. After that, $10 for every 1 million calls.
reilly3000about 4 years ago
AWS represents over 60% of the net profit of the entire Amazon empire across all its divisions and acquisitions. If they truly helped the customer to waste less money, it would have a massive impact on everyone who has stock, from sovereign funds to junior engineers. They have a vested interest in dinging your sandbox account $1&#x2F;month for storing secrets you haven’t used in 2 years. I don’t see this changing anytime soon, especially when the competition is no better.
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putsjoeabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t get why AWS doesn&#x27;t offer preloading credit. Surely charging your card 1 cent a month isn&#x27;t worth the time.<p>Whereas if they allowed customers to load on an amount, even a direct debit, their card processing fees would go down and customers would just get cut off when they run out of credit.<p>I suppose a counter argument to this is that it&#x27;s hard for AWS to keep a constant eye on how much a service is costing. In which case we&#x27;re back to the same argument as spending limits.
userbinatorabout 4 years ago
When you realise that their whole business model is around extracting as much $$$ from users as they can, you should be entirely unsurprised by how AWS and other cloud providers behave. My cynical side is inclined to say &quot;see, this is what you get for using cloud computing&quot;. Cloud providers are the very definition of nickel-and-diming. I still remember the amusement of finding out that AWS has Cost Management services, which themselves have a cost.
INTPenisabout 4 years ago
I use aws relatively often but for fairly small scale stuff, selfhosting&#x2F;homelab. I&#x27;m very scared of all these horror stories.<p>I&#x27;ve set a budget and an alert for the budget. Is that enough?<p>I can see the budget being overdrawn for the time it takes me to react to the alert but I see no way to actually shut down servies.<p>It would probably be possible to script by monitoring the API and then issuing aws commands to shut things down. But it would be a huge project, someone should get on that.
varispeedabout 4 years ago
Spending limits should be a legal requirement and if company cannot or doesn&#x27;t want to implement it, then they shouldn&#x27;t be in business. Simple as that.
aqsheehyabout 4 years ago
This doesn&#x27;t help those that have already been hurt, but when you&#x27;re using any cloud provider for personal use make sure to set budgets and alerts for them. It&#x27;s quite easy to set these up and they can save you a headache later on. Truth be told they should all be asking you what you expect to spend when you set up an account and alert you by default but just remember these cloud providers are not your friends.
sheverabout 4 years ago
This. 100% this.<p>I have had issues with students doing the same thing, and I was being charged for dormant projects that I thought I&#x27;d deleted. AWS is a nightmare of an ecosystem to navigate.<p>The AWS Educate Starter Account is almost useless - especially if the student has to submit their project for external review - because it doesn&#x27;t allow publicly accessible S3 buckets and has rotating credentials.
hannofcartabout 4 years ago
&gt; ...an updated free tier that treats “personal learning” AWS accounts differently from “new corporate” accounts, and sets hard billing limits that you can’t exceed.<p>Honestly, this is needed for corporate accounts as well. Not all companies are FAANG scale behemoths who can shrug off an unexpected charge.<p>For a scrappy startup in India, an unexpected $5000 bill would be an existential threat.
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______-about 4 years ago
Does anyone else use the AWS free tier for a year, and then when the free year ends, signup for a new account and start another free tier account? It&#x27;s a good technique if you live frugally.<p>The only caveat being you have to migrate everything to new servers, which can get messy if you don&#x27;t practice how to do that efficiently.
bitwizeabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s the AOL free trial business model. Give &#x27;em a freebie, but take down their credit card info so you can start charging them the <i>moment</i> they exceed the limits of &quot;free&quot;. And make it really hard to cancel.<p>As for whether Amazon will listen, Upton Sinclair blah blah not understanding it.
young_unixerabout 4 years ago
Can anyone recommend a cloud provider that&#x27;s suitable for learning (the opposite of AWS in this regard)?
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wraptileabout 4 years ago
One hack I&#x27;ve learned once I got burned by similar service is to always use virtual debit card with a spending limit if your bank supports one. I have a virtual card on Revolut dedicated to small subscriptions that freezes at 100$&#x2F;month to prevent this sort of fraud.
totetsuabout 4 years ago
is there an IAC template somewhere that resets an aws account to 0 and deletes everything? I know this articles point is this shouldn&#x27;t be possible, but as long as it is, there should be a simple measure, that could be linked in tutorials for stopping ongoing charges.
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asdevabout 4 years ago
unfortunately for most cloud providers, you have to read through pricing very carefully and be even more careful with what you deploy. an infinite loop could lead to $$$$ in charges and billing alerts just alert you, they don&#x27;t actually shut anything off
TheChaplainabout 4 years ago
I am very happy this thread came up, because I&#x27;m looking at cloud providers to experiement with.<p>So many comments about charges that show up despite resources removed or even deleted accounts, tells me that AWS can not be trusted to present me the full picture of costs.
alashleyabout 4 years ago
Scary, I&#x27;d have similar fears about using Firebase&#x2F;Firestore in a production app.
ROARosenabout 4 years ago
I had a similar experience, with costs of $100 incurred over a four-month period. All it took was on email to AWS support, and they refunded the entire thing.<p>I was impressed, but still have been really trying to keep off AWS just to not have a mistaken repeat.
readonthegoappabout 4 years ago
I think it&#x27;s best to just refer to it in a way that makes sense<p><pre><code> Not-actually-Free Tier </code></pre> And&#x2F;Or<p><pre><code> Not-actually-a-Tier Tier </code></pre> But it&#x27;s not broken<p>Because that would imply it&#x27;s not working the way Amazon wants<p>And Amazon is not stupid
codazodaabout 4 years ago
&quot;There&#x27;s money in confusion&quot; - Rulan Clark<p>That quote is what I think about when I see cloud hosting pricing models. Rulan was the late co-founder of Clark&#x27;s Pine Factory in Northern Utah and my first boss in the 1990&#x27;s.
unilynxabout 4 years ago
Part of the problem is that AWS billing is soo slow to update.<p>This doesn&#x27;t only hit budgetting... trying to get all the costs to go the proper billing tags (and verify that you found them all) also requires test cycles of up to 2 days.
vvramabout 4 years ago
For accounts you want to put spend limits on always use a pre-paid card or card with spend limits <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;privacy.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;privacy.com&#x2F;</a>.
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jldabout 4 years ago
A way to limit the max spend per month would be great, even if that means creates outages.<p>I would happily put a $20&#x2F;mo limit on many of my accounts. They should never bill more than few dollars a month.
tsfrankeabout 4 years ago
AWS offers throw away accounts during immersion days, jam sessions, etc (especially at re:invent). It would be great if these were extended to the general public, even if at a small fee.
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offtop5about 4 years ago
Ya know at 20 theirs&#x27;s a ton of very bad mistakes one can make.<p>Something that can be resolved via getting in contact with AWS isn&#x27;t one of them. I&#x27;ve gotten charges refunded before.
base3about 4 years ago
Me too! I use AWS all day at work, so I should be able to find the service that charges my personal account 64 cents per month... :shrug: I&#x27;m glad that student got help.
stadiumabout 4 years ago
The AWS billing dashboard has a &quot;budgets&quot; feature. I just added a daily account-level budget of $1 to my dev sandbox account, and setup an alert at 50% of the budget or $0.50. It took about a minute to setup.<p>You can choose to include or exclude refunds and credits. If you exclude them, I am guessing but it should show your true cost without the free tier pricing. If they are included it would tell you the impact right after any free tier offers expired.<p>Perhaps setting a budget like this should be part of any organization&#x27;s new account setup process.
Aeolunabout 4 years ago
Isn’t there a service that does something like this? I’d think by this point someone had made a business out of it if it was a serious problem.
mmmuhdabout 4 years ago
I was hit by unplanned $43 aws bill three days ago, in our Nigerian economy $43 is a lot of money, I am still grieving.
paulpauperabout 4 years ago
aws free tier is a joke anyway. surprise billing even after minimal usage and they shutdown your account if you forget to pay or the credit card billing info does not work . If it is truly free, why do they need your credit card.
darthrupertabout 4 years ago
The author starts eith comparing a $200 buck charge that AWS support roller back to somebody losing or imagining to lose $100K in trading. Wild juxtapositions there.<p>After seeing how recklessly people use AWS when it&#x27;s not their own wallet on the line, I&#x27;ll wager to say that this 20-year old learned a valuablr lesson.
siwatanejoabout 4 years ago
That&#x27;s why I use cloud providers that accept bitcoin. Credit cards are evil.
mikesabbaghabout 4 years ago
debugged a terraform script on my personal aws, I got a bill of ~100$ for the past 2 months. It seems i had eks still running without nodes!!<p>Why would a service allow to have eks without nodes? Will call support to get a refund!
fmakunboundabout 4 years ago
Feel like it&#x27;s a good cloud learning experience for the student though.
trogabout 4 years ago
Please just let me set a hard budget that caps my spending.
StreamBrightabout 4 years ago
&gt;&gt; After all, the AWS Free Tier has been broken for 10+ years. How urgent of a problem can it be?<p>What? I use AWS Free Tier a lot and it is the best thing for small businesses and startups.
jrockwayabout 4 years ago
This is something I think about a lot. For work, I run a cloud service, and being able to accomodate students (and other cost-sensitive users) like the one in the post is important to me. I&#x27;ve always thought that letting people experiment over the weekend is what leads to people wanting to use something at work (where the real budget is), and I think that supporting those users is how you build a userbase of advocates. Maybe they can&#x27;t afford (or justify) the enterprise plan quite yet, but they can still be a happy user and cheer on those that can justify the expense.<p>I&#x27;ve personally found that it can be hard to get the approval to type in your company credit card until you&#x27;ve done enough research to prove that something is going to be worth the money. That leads to a chicken and the egg problem; people won&#x27;t be confident until they&#x27;ve paid, but they can&#x27;t gain that confidence until they pay! So you have to get the small &quot;testing&quot; use case perfect, or you&#x27;ll never have any real customers. (My corollary to this is because AWS already has your company credit card, and you already have &quot;root&quot; or similar because of your role, it sure is easy to build whatever you want there. If AWS provides some service, you can start using it and the cost will be lost in the noise. But if it&#x27;s not on AWS, then you&#x27;ll have to produce some justification to use the service before you can start paying for it. I ran into that a lot at my last job; I wanted to buy $5&#x2F;month services like Sentry but was told no, whereas other people could just create a m4.4xlarge RDS instance for $1000&#x2F;month and nobody even noticed or cared. People really like being approvers at the time of entering the credit card, rather than at the time of actual cost accrual, and cloud providers really facilitate that. Not sure that&#x27;s really helping those approvers -- it almost feels a little bit like embezzlement.)<p>Anyway, ranting aside, here&#x27;s what we do for the cloud service I work on:<p>1) We have a free tier. It&#x27;s really free; you don&#x27;t even get to enter a credit card. Sign in and start doing your work. (We delete your stuff after 4 hours, though.)<p>2) For the paid tier, all costs are pay as you go. The instant you click &quot;delete workspace&quot;, no more costs accrue. Merely having an account open doesn&#x27;t accrue any costs for you, and there is no way to create a phantom resource that you can&#x27;t see in the UI and delete. If you delete everything, billing is over.<p>One weakness that I&#x27;d like to fix is the latency between resource use and when we tell you about it. That takes a few days, so if you are playing with aggressive autoscaling, you don&#x27;t really know what it&#x27;s going to cost until your experiment is over. I&#x27;d like to collect real-time usage data and just bill based off of that, so that the UI can update you within seconds of your job starting. If it&#x27;s too much, you can just pull the plug and not be surprised.<p>The next step is letting people pre-pay, and do what the vast majority of comments on this thread want: kill the compute resources when the budget is exceeded. My thought is that it&#x27;s hard to ask your customers for money upfront, which is probably where the post-pay model originated. I personally always have reservations about buying 3 year reserved instances from cloud providers, even if it saves a ton of money. &quot;What if we stop using it tomorrow!?&quot; But there is probably a good compromise here: type into the UI what you&#x27;d like to pay for autoscaling per month, and once that budget it exceeded, run at the bare minimum &quot;keep the lights on&quot; level. More difficult than the alternative, but certainly possible. And very good for users -- no total outage, no unexpected bill they have no hope of being able to pay. Things are just slower for a while.<p>Anyway, I don&#x27;t know what the perfect formula for cloud pricing is -- but it&#x27;s clear that what AWS has is not quite right, and that we can probably do better. To paraphrase Jeff Bezos (&quot;your margin is my opportunity&quot;), what AWS has consistently done wrong for years is your chance to make it better and get paid for doing so.
whoknowswhat11about 4 years ago
Goodness - reading these statements makes me laugh - &quot;sinister&quot; &quot;evil&quot; &quot;by design&quot;.<p>Reality - very few folks want a hard billing limit.<p>To stop charging you AWS would need to delete all your EBS and S3 volumes, stop all EC2 instances, release all public IP&#x27;s, delete all AWS directories and the list goes on. The idea that AWS would build this giant data loss footgun into their system is ridiculous.<p>Somewhere in AWS someone said, how could this blow up, and they came up with 100 ways, including misconfigured cost accounting etc.<p>That said, the GCP project based model makes more sense to me, give you more control etc.<p>That said, if there is such demand for hard billing limit playgrounds (I&#x27;m sure there is but not by folks giving AWS a lot of money), someone should be able to do a hosted solution for AWS that bills into their corp account and gives you a playground for learning (with a real hard billing limit). That type of approach is used in a lot of other contexts already.
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