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Why I Work on Ads

657 pointsby benjaminjosephwabout 4 years ago

114 comments

adriandabout 4 years ago
The author writes that you can either pay with money or you can “pay with your attention”. What’s left unsaid is the cost of that attention. I believe that cost is very high and it isn’t just ads, it’s the design of countless products including social media sites, games and even the site you’re reading this on right now. It’s all designed to extract as much attention as possible, and the cost is people’s ability to concentrate, learn and get shit done. The cost is, in other words, staggeringly high.
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drcongoabout 4 years ago
As the person who originally asked &quot;why&quot; I feel like I ought to respond, though much of it is covered by other comments. I used to work in more trad advertising, so my question wasn&#x27;t so much an objection to working in advertising itself, but specifically Google&#x27;s version of advertising, which I see as gross overreach into people&#x27;s personal lives.<p>In other comments people have mentioned YouTube subscriptions as being an alternative, it really isn&#x27;t - OK, you don&#x27;t see any adverts, but they&#x27;re still harvesting and selling you. That a privately owned corporation is allowed to read your messages and sell what they find to the highest bidder is vile and honestly makes me wonder how we got here.<p>I quit advertising after only a couple of years because it blackened my soul. If I was helping to harvest people&#x27;s personal lives for private profit I can only imagine it would have been worse.
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baby-yodaabout 4 years ago
My gripe with the author&#x27;s rationalization (which is probably held by many of his peers as well, not to point specifically at him) is that the default of the web has become that you must accept ads being thrown in your face to do the most benign browsing activity.<p>a user makes an http request to a domain. the current accepted response is to send back ads and trackers, pillage and extract as much value from that user as possible, immediately. as a user I feel I should be prompted:<p>&quot;this site is funded by ads. by continuing, you agree to the following...&quot;<p>its just a sort of zero permission adulteration of the web - guaranteed ad revenue from a click begets more crap clickbait content and so on. in fact, perhaps ads and tracking mechanisms should be treated by browsers the same as zero click JS malware. no content til the user agrees to have ads delivered to them.<p>i get it, of course prompting a user would create friction and decrease revenue. its the user&#x27;s machine, data. they are entitled to the optionality of rejecting an HTTP response if it contains unwanted&#x2F;unwelcome crap.
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thrwaeasddsafabout 4 years ago
For me the first big disagreement begins with asking for what&#x27;s the alternative. I don&#x27;t think there needs to be an alternative. I think ads are largely responsible for the sorry state of the seo spammed web where finding what you want can be a complete nightmare. (It costs almost nothing to run a website, and if you spam enough ~zero cost sites loaded with ads and affiliate links, you can probably make a buck. This prospect just encourages spam and low effort sites.)<p>I don&#x27;t care one bit if ad supported sites just vanish, no need for an alternative. Yes please, clean up the web. What&#x27;s left is the stuff that is worth enough for people to pay for.
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hermesfeetabout 4 years ago
Thanks for laying out your logic.<p>I work in the ads business at FB. I do so because I personally like ads and my biggest gripe is that ads are not relevant and personalized enough. I want better ads.<p>Ultimately ads support a robust ecosystem of free software and content that keeps many creators going. Consumers can also choose to buy their software and content, or donate, but most don’t. Despite their whining, most people want free stuff, and ads are almost free (a small attention cost).<p>I think people comparing ads to guns, plagues, and locusts need to check their own values. Ads support free stuff for the poor and middle classes. Rich coastal elites can tell themselves they will pay for everything, and that’s great (most don’t). Most consumers cannot afford to pay for software or news subscriptions. Ad models fill out the spectrum of options.<p>Is the current ads ecosystem perfect? Clearly not. There’s a lot we need to do to educate users, get consent, and increase control and transparency. On the flip side, this needs to be simple and easy: consent needs to be an understandable and low friction process to avoid consent fatigue. They are also plenty of privacy enhancing technologies like differential privacy and local caching to deal with data sharing issues.<p>If you hate ads, lean into that. Don’t work for adtech, block all your ads, pay for everything. I support you and respect that! I just think it’s mean and shortsighted to think that everyone else is like you and to aggressively attack adtech engineers, platforms, businesses, and the billions of consumers who aren’t as rich as you and will happily watch ads to get free stuff. The internet is great because a lot of high quality stuff like software, news, videos, etc is free for anyone, anywhere. Ads make that possible and I’m proud of it.
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kelnosabout 4 years ago
While I applaud the author for giving a chunk of his income to charity, to me it just feels like paying a penance for doing something bad.<p>I may be in the minority on this belief, but I think advertising -- any kind of advertising -- is inherently bad. To me, it&#x27;s just psychological manipulation. I never want to see any ads, ever. If I could wear a pair of contact lenses that removed things like billboards from my vision, I would wear them in a heartbeat, even though billboards are far less harmful than internet-based ads.<p>I sometimes hear arguments that advertising isn&#x27;t all bad because when someone actually is planning to make a particular kind of purchase, advertising can help them figure out which brand&#x2F;model&#x2F;etc. to buy. The problem with that is that the ads have no interest in satisfying anyone&#x27;s particular needs in the best way. Someone could easily be swayed by a slick ad for a product that is not as good for their use as another product that had a less-engaging&#x2F;less-manipulative ad.<p>The worst thing about internet advertising is of course the erosion of privacy. If ad networks were merely paying for people&#x27;s eyeballs, that might not be too nefarious. But they&#x27;re paying to track people and build intimate profiles about them, and that&#x27;s not ok. I have very little faith that any of these initiatives that will supposedly make ad targeting privacy-preserving will actually work. All they do is make it appear that a company is doing something, so they can point to it when they get in trouble, claiming that they tried really hard to help preserve privacy, but it just didn&#x27;t work out.<p>I&#x27;m just not interested in any of this crap. I know micropayments and pay-per-article and such are really hard to do, and really hard to get adopted, but that is the only model I will accept if people want me to pay in some way for web content. Making me pay for a $30&#x2F;month subscription for the three or four articles I&#x27;ll end up reading on your site per month is not something I&#x27;m interested in doing. And I will not pay through psychological manipulation and erosion of privacy.
alex_youngabout 4 years ago
Here&#x27;s an honest question: Why should a search engine cost so much?<p>Look at Wikipedia - it&#x27;s a search engine and content repository for all of the world&#x27;s knowledge, and its operating expenses are around $100M &#x2F; year.<p>The Internet Archive has an annual budget of $10M &#x2F; year.<p>Google on the other hand, has annual revenues of $181B &#x2F; year, or about 2000 times Wikipedia&#x27;s spending.<p>Is the crawling part hard? The folks at Common Crawl (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commoncrawl.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;commoncrawl.org&#x2F;</a>) crawl the entire web every month and release it free of charge.<p>What about the search algorithms? Well, you can do a bunch with TFIDF and PageRank, for which patient protection has expired.<p>For the sake of argument, let&#x27;s assume that the cost of hosting a ubiquitous search engine would be double Wikipedia&#x27;s annual costs. Still about a thousand times less expensive than Google.<p>Ads don&#x27;t pay for a search engine. They pay for vast amounts of excess.<p>What keeps such a solution from us? Here are a few of many reasons:<p>* Google pays billions of dollars a year to make it the default option on browsers.<p>* Exclusive deals with portals such as LinkedIn which exclude open engines such as Archive.org from their content.<p>* Limits on peer-to-peer connections perpetuated by IPv4 which prevent us from hosting a distributed engine ourselves.<p>Posing the problem as one of &quot;there&#x27;s no other way to pay for this expensive machine&quot; is pretty lame isn&#x27;t it?
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czzrabout 4 years ago
Biggest issue with this argument - advertising supported businesses are fine, contextual advertising is fine, targeted cross site advertising is a pointless red queen race that is undermining our society in multiple ways.
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rpicardabout 4 years ago
Just wanted to mention I appreciate seeing a different perspective here.<p>I know there&#x27;s a lot of negative reaction to it, and I can empathize with that because there&#x27;s a long history of negative behavior by the advertising industry. But there&#x27;s no doubt that there are benefits too, and seeing some nuance on HN is always a win.
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smsm42about 4 years ago
I notice immediately two main points are wrong:<p>&gt; Minimal friction.<p>Fair enough when the site had one ad. Pretty much no site had one ad now. They have lots of them, which is significantly slowing down loading the page. And if you add all tracking and surveillance code, it can inflate a simple site into megabytes of data. There are common sites that load literally hundreds of outside URLs for ad and surveillance mechanics.<p>Which brings us to point 2:<p>&gt; Non-regressive. Paywalls, like other fixed costs, are regressive<p>Ad costs are regressive too - if you have weak computer and low bw connection, if your connection is unstable or expensive, if your only internet device is a mobile phone with less than excellent bandwidth - which is commonly the case in low income communities - then the last thing you want is to be hit with megabytes of ad data which have zero relationship to what you want to get. Of course, for people sitting on optical gigabit networks with latest-greatest hardware their employer paid for is not much of a problem...<p>If it was just a paid service, you could work out a deal - maybe it could be cheaper for your country, or have some kind of library or per-provider setup that could make it easier for you to get to it - but you don&#x27;t have this option, it&#x27;s megabytes of ad everywhere.
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dbenamyabout 4 years ago
There&#x27;s a lot of talk in the comments here about how ads are terrible, Jeff is terrible, etc. Eg &quot;I personally have a very low opinion of anyone who works for a company that does that and even lower of anyone who actually works on serving those adverts.&quot;<p>According to <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;donations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;donations</a>, Jeff and Julia have donated about $1.5m. GiveWell top rated charities are estimated [1] to save a life for each $3,000 - $5,000 donated. For a ballpark analysis, let&#x27;s call that $4,000 and ignore secondary factors (eg inflation over their donation history).<p><i>Jeff and Julia have saved something like 375 lives, many of them likely children.</i><p>Please keep that in mind while forming and communicating your views.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.givewell.org&#x2F;charities&#x2F;top-charities" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.givewell.org&#x2F;charities&#x2F;top-charities</a>
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FriedrichNabout 4 years ago
Yeah, I still don&#x27;t like it. I used to not mind ads because they were just images, but then came the ones that moved, then the ones that made sound, then the ones that injected malicious JavaScript. Then I installed an adblocker, then I installed a script blocker, then I installed a proxy. Now most websites won&#x27;t work and I&#x27;m fine with that.
latexrabout 4 years ago
&gt; I think advertising is positive<p>&gt; (…)<p>&gt; So: why is advertising good? (…) The question is, what is the alternative?<p>“I can’t think of a better alternative than the status quo, thus the status quo is positive” isn’t a sound conclusion. Every sufficiently ingrained societal negative we’ve abolished since was likely reasoned in that manner at one point.
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djdjdjdjdjabout 4 years ago
I invented &#x27;antiad&#x27;.<p>I see an annoying ad in public space? I might get in contact with them to complain about that ad.<p>I think it is just fair to tell someone my honest opinion as soon as they take the time and effort to target me.<p>I&#x27;m totally lost on why we support generic unrelevant ads in public spaces. It makes our cities ugly.
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dkerstenabout 4 years ago
I’m against advertisement, in my opinion it’s the worst thing to happen to the internet.<p>However, I have a problem with Google adverts specifically and that is that they’re absolute hot garbage. Google has advertised to me: outright scams, malware, gambling, mobile games with extremely exploitative monetisation.<p>And they are working to take away any privacy I might have to keep showing me this shit. In my opinion, Google is basically evil these days.<p>I personally have a very low opinion of anyone who works for a company that does that and even lower of anyone who actually works on serving those adverts.
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S_A_Pabout 4 years ago
Justify it however you want, its not (IMHO) adding value to society and has created perverse incentives on the internet. Donating to &quot;efficient&quot; charities does not excuse what you do for a living. That was thrown out there first to virtue signal, but something tells me if that is your first argument you know that what you are doing isnt good for society. I honestly would feel better about the guy if he just said &#x27;I work on ads. They pay me a shit ton of money. I know its a dirty business, but right now I want to get paid&#x27;.
MaxwellMabout 4 years ago
Thanks for sharing. This was a compelling argument that nudged my understanding in a new direction.<p>I recently started paying creators on Patreon and subscribing to news outlets I wanted to support. But within a year, I realized that this was inefficient, I didn&#x27;t like&#x2F;read&#x2F;watch most of the content that my subscriptions were supporting. As much as I wanted to support the content creators and quality journalism, I questioned the value of my subscriptions and cancelled - I felt like I signed up for a gym membership on Jan 1st that I wasn&#x27;t using anymore.<p>Ads allow me &quot;to pay&quot; with my attention for only the content that I value. I don&#x27;t like ads, I generally use an ad-blocker, but I appreciate the post and the perspective.
goertzenabout 4 years ago
I pay for youtube, support some people on patreon and use an adblocker. But I still think ads a net positive and a clever solution to bootstrapping and continuing to support a relatively open online publishing ecosystem.<p>Thanks for your work and sharing your thoughts jefftk!
creataabout 4 years ago
&gt; but what about all those sites that don&#x27;t have a strong commercial tie-in?<p>Surely it&#x27;s okay for sites that &quot;don&#x27;t have a commercial tie-in&quot; to stick with untargeted ads? I just think that building a giant stalking network is an extreme (and ideally illegal) solution to the &quot;problem&quot; that a couple of sites won&#x27;t make as much money off their popularity as they&#x27;d like.<p>And is it <i>that</i> uncharitable to characterize what Facebook and Google are building as a giant stalking network?
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fossuserabout 4 years ago
Ads are a corrupting influence on the web - the issue with framing this as more open access compared to for-pay services is that it sidesteps how the model corrupts the content of the services itself. There are the data collection and privacy issues as well, but it&#x27;s the corruption of the content that&#x27;s a really serious destructive force. In the end you can&#x27;t even pay for the original non-ad supported content anymore because the content itself is an ad created entirely for the purpose of driving engagement. (There are some exceptions to this e.g. Substack).<p>It also corrupts what products get built because the incentives between the users of the software and the funders of the software are not aligned (even though ad devs pretend they are by pretending users like relevant ads). To test if users truly find &#x27;relevant ads&#x27; as value-add: make two products, one with ads and one without and charge for the one <i>with</i> ads - see how many people buy it.<p>Why doesn&#x27;t Hulu charge more many for their streaming service <i>with</i> ads instead of their service without? The behavior of these companies suggests they know on some level this value-add nonsense is a rationalization. Even if you say it&#x27;s only value-add when compared to un-targeted ads - let users choose to have un-targeted ads without giving up their data privacy. I&#x27;d bet money on what choice they&#x27;d make.<p>The truth is targeted ads work and make enormous amounts of money for the ad companies - that&#x27;s why they do them. The twisted narratives of why this is actually good for people or society are just another example that there is no limit to humanity&#x27;s ability to rationalize anything when it&#x27;s in their interest to do so.<p>--<p>&quot;“In the beginning not everyone tended to their free data farms. Many did not know what to do with them, some only planted one or two tweets and then abandoned them entirely. This disappointed the earls of our kingdom. If they don’t encourage growth, their share of the data harvest is smaller, there’s no one to hear their pronouncements, and all of the land they spent time cultivating is wasted. They realized that not only do they need to make the land easy to cultivate, but they need to make the serfs want to cultivate it. They experimented for a while and learned that new types of controversial, viciously competitive crops are great for encouraging data farming - they call this type of encouragement ‘engagement’.”&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zalberico.com&#x2F;essay&#x2F;2020&#x2F;07&#x2F;14&#x2F;the-serfs-of-facebook.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;zalberico.com&#x2F;essay&#x2F;2020&#x2F;07&#x2F;14&#x2F;the-serfs-of-facebook...</a>
redleggedfrogabout 4 years ago
That sure sounds like appeasing guilt with charity donations.
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annoyingnoobabout 4 years ago
The collection, cataloging, and storage of personal data is the issue. We can have effective ads without constantly looking over everyone&#x27;s shoulder and documenting what they do. But obviously, the author sees this data collection as beneficial, I respectfully disagree. I left advertising because I didn&#x27;t like what I could see on the backend.
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fraktlabout 4 years ago
I hate ads. I always hated them.<p>It doesn&#x27;t mean I hate people who work on ads &#x2F; ad software. It doesn&#x27;t mean I want to cancel them. You, and the others in that field, don&#x27;t have to justify yourself. You don&#x27;t have to donate to charity to feel better about what you&#x27;re doing (it doesn&#x27;t mean &quot;stop donating NOW&quot;, it&#x27;s just.. do what you feel is good, like you are doing now).<p>There&#x27;s a lot of bad going on in the world. Ads are shady-grey area. I know how to fight it and have my internet ad-free. You&#x27;re ok, don&#x27;t let negative comments get to you. Cheers!
belochabout 4 years ago
The crux of his justification for what he does is that, he argues, people wouldn&#x27;t want to pay a monthly fee for services like youtube bundled with complete respect for their privacy.<p>First, users do not currently have that choice. Sure, you can pay for some things (e.g. youtube premium), but it does nothing for your privacy. If you buy youtube premium you&#x27;ll very likely see more ads for youtube premium (if you&#x27;re not already blocking ads).<p>Second, The real benefit of ads is that it lets small sites that might get a single one-time visit from a user monetize that visit. A blog with a trending post is not going to be able to sell micro-subscriptions to one-time users, but they can get some ad revenue. The only current alternative here is begging for donations. That takes some effort and can piss off readers.<p>Ironically, although Kaufman mentions that micropayments are hard, Google is one of the few companies currently situated to implement them in a way that would actually improve user privacy. e.g. If a user paid a &quot;Premium Internet&quot; monthly fee, Google Ads could have a flag that turns it&#x27;s data collection&#x2F;sharing off and replaces it with micropayments to any site that user visits that are running Google Ads.<p>Of course, it does seem a little bit like a mafia protection racket for a company devoted to invading user privacy and selling their data to turn around and offer to stop doing that if paid by users!
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Bellamyabout 4 years ago
1. Good points. There is no better alternative available.<p>2. There are worst jobs to have like working for the auto industry.<p>3. He&#x27;s definitely a better person than I am with better values. Who gives 50% earned to charity?
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fooblatabout 4 years ago
Ads are fine.<p>Trying every way possible to track and record every second of my life online and in the physical world is evil.
ericjangabout 4 years ago
Disclaimer: I work at Google too (not ads), all opinions my own.<p>I&#x27;m surprised the author focused singularly on the &quot;funding the open web&quot; stance, and did not discuss the alleged negative externalities created by advertising-driven business incentives. The top comments of the blog comments (e.g. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;why-i-work-on-ads#lw-Nvd9ZHJLxZpNZDPKr" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;p&#x2F;why-i-work-on-ads#lw-Nvd9ZHJLxZpNZD...</a>) also point this out.<p>For instance, The Netflix documentary &quot;The Social Dilemma&quot; discusses these at length, and it forms a lot of the political zeitgeist around regulation of adtech companies (e.g. driving polarization, radicalization, depression and such).<p>&gt; The question is, what is the alternative? I see two main funding models:<p>It&#x27;s possible to simultaneously believe that ads are currently the effective way to lower barrier of entry to accessing content, and also believe that ads are a detriment to people&#x27;s mental health.<p>One alternative would be an ad-supported system that performs less-personalized ad-targeting, and in doing so influences people&#x27;s behavior less but generates enough revenue to keep the lights on with a reasonable profit margin. The government has laws for regulating natural monopolies like this, where they prevent utility companies from price gouging but grant them a certain amount of margin.
jasodeabout 4 years ago
The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, <i>&quot;It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.&quot;</i><p>I will offer a contrarian opinion as a <i>user</i> whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos <i>works better for me as a consumer</i>.<p>The alternative of paying $9.99&#x2F;month for Youtube... or micropayments for each search query or a &quot;Google Search Engine yearly subscription&quot; ... or Patreon donations for video content ... are all <i>more user hostile</i> for my use cases. I don&#x27;t like ads but they are the most friction-free way to consume a wide variety of content.<p>I&#x27;ve been using Google Search for over 20 years <i>for free</i> which is pretty amazing. Would I rather replay history and pay ~$120 every year (~$2400 ?) to search for web articles? No.<p>That said, there are also many corrosive aspects of advertising. Advertising should be open and transparent. If the business of ads are truthful, I will sometimes <i>pay to see ads</i>. E.g. I pay $10 ticket for a home &amp; garden convention show so the manufacturers in booths can <i>advertise their wares to me</i>. The opposite and immoral idea of hidden ad tracking is Facebook trying to convince Apple not to show confirmation dialogs about ad IDFA tracking.
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bobdoshermanabout 4 years ago
A lot of this comes down to preferences, and my preference ordering would be:<p>Ads that attempt to take me all the way from browsing--&gt;discovery--&gt;potential purchase--&gt;purchase I view as always bad. Leave me alone while I&#x27;m browsing. Ads that attempt to take me from discovery--&gt;potential purchase I view as ok but ineffective. At least throw a promo code in that ad next time, please and thank you. Ads that successfully take me from discovery--&gt;potential purchase--&gt;purchase I view as ok since my utility is higher having purchased the product given the payload of the ad (and I wouldn&#x27;t have purchased the product having not gotten the ad).<p>One thing then from my (not necessarily everyones) preferences is that displaying an ad to me should only potentially be done if the conditional probability of me being in discovery mode is higher than the conditional probability of me being in browsing mode. And then it comes down to what of me is in that conditioning set. Some very fuzzy anonymous slice of me, well ok. But better not be PI in there...<p>But these are just my preferences, and they may not be representative. So there&#x27;s an aggregation problem also. In general I&#x27;d also prefer if brands shifted the marginal marketing dollar towards channels where the disutility of showing me an ad when they estimate I&#x27;m in discovery mode but I&#x27;m actually in browsing mode is lowest - so (in my mind) when possible put more in influencer marketing versus google display network for instance. Ideally this preference is evident in brand&#x27;s roi calcs so it&#x27;s internalized.
dhimesabout 4 years ago
Once again (I&#x27;m getting hoarse from shouting this): Ads are fine. Having ads where I am looking at something because I am interested in it is fine.<p>Tracking me is not.<p>Are we talking ad-tech, or tracking-tech?
powerappleabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t think ads fund open internet, it does fund the huge valuation of internet companies though. Why internet company&#x27;s valuation is so much higher than the shops on high-streets? it does not have to be.<p>I don&#x27;t hate ads, they are useful. I use Instagram for ads, I follow restaurants and hotels. They are just some information. But I don&#x27;t want to be targeted.
sloshnmoshabout 4 years ago
The late great Bill Hicks perfectly summarized my feelings towards advertisers&#x2F;marketers.<p>There is nothing wrong with ads per-say, it is the real time bidding and targeted ads that I have problems with.<p>And of course malvertising such as the one which compromised my sisters laptop with a fileless rootkit a few years back.<p>Ads and analytics are not allowed on my home network.
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NilsIRLabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s not because it&#x27;s funded by advertising that it&#x27;s cheaper for the user, in the end, the consumer pays for the advertising when they purchase something
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soheilabout 4 years ago
I think to address &quot;why do you work on ads&quot; and only addressing the positive points misses half of the question. The other half is what harms do ads cause. He addressed bandwidth concerns which they&#x27;re working on mitigating with ad vendors, but biggest problem with ads is the number of wasted attention cycles by people who do not find ads relevant or otherwise be interested at all in buying anything displayed in ads. If you calculate life lost on the internet due to this factor alone that number may justify banning almost all types of ads immediately.<p>Additionally, opening with I give half of my money to charity so leave me alone, should be a red flag that what&#x27;s to follow is not a strong argument for the point the author is trying to make.
whitepaintabout 4 years ago
Aren&#x27;t effective ads good for society? Don&#x27;t they make us prosperous? Jobs are created, people get cheaper goods, many small businesses emerge?
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andrepdabout 4 years ago
This whole post assumes the only options which can conceivably exist for monetising content are: (1) ads, or (2) paying for single pageviews (and (3) doing it for free). Obviously this is a fallacy: there are numerous alternative ways to do things.
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PedroBatistaabout 4 years ago
This could be the same as &quot;Why I work on Healthcare&quot;.<p>There&#x27;s a wide range from honest honorable work to complete scumbag devil.
version_fiveabout 4 years ago
I didnt see anything about what I consider to be the major drawback of an ad- driven internet: the content you get skews heavily toward attention grabbing crap instead of anything with deeper value. There are exceptions, but advertising incentives clicks and views, and perverts what could be a great information sharing medium, making it all about outrage, escalation, yelling the loudest or framing things in the most provocative way possible.
joshuamortonabout 4 years ago
I want to make an interesting meta-comment here:<p>One of the common criticisms of ads is how they impact privacy. I&#x27;m not going to pick any particular comment there, because I agree with some and disagree with others and find some to be incoherent. But the core issue is that ads (and the associated tracking and data collection) are an unethical privacy intrusion.<p>I think that some of the arguments (especially the ones I find incoherent) are because some people value privacy <i>for privacy&#x27;s sake</i>. That is, I usually try to look at my privacy from the perspective of threats I care about. Some people don&#x27;t do that, they want privacy for the sake of privacy. Privacy as a goal, not as a means to an end of avoiding specific attacks. When I ask these kinds fo people what kinds of privacy &quot;attacks&quot; they&#x27;re afraid of, I get things that sounds to me like conspiracy theories.<p>This isn&#x27;t wrong, it&#x27;s just fundamentally different than how I approach things. I expect (given that Jeff publishes his salary every year and is super transparent about many things) he&#x27;s similarly not worried about privacy as a goal, and instead cares about &quot;circumstantial&quot; privacy.<p>I wonder if this difference in values is part of the disconnect.<p>I think another part of the disconnect is that once you have insight into an organization, is much easier to see how it actually works. It&#x27;s very easy to presume bad things as an outsider than an insider. But by the same token, it&#x27;s somewhat rational for an outsider to not believe an insider who says &quot;no just trust me, we aren&#x27;t doing that&quot;. And so this too isn&#x27;t an easy thing to fix without some sort of radical transparency on the part of the company (and even then).
Tumblewoodabout 4 years ago
Advertisement is mostly a zero-sum game, competing for a limited amount of spending. If one player in a market advertises, they gain while the other players lose roughly the same amount. If the advertising world kept operating as normal, but the ads never displayed anywhere—blank sidebars, blank sponsored content, blank billboards—it would be more pleasant for consumers, and the market as a whole would not be any worse off for it.<p>Then why stop there? No one needs to make the ads. Everyone employed to design, shoot, and display the ad can serve others instead of working to manipulate them. As long as the transactions keep going as normal, it&#x27;s a huge win for everybody.<p>Of course, this is business. Corporations wouldn&#x27;t spend that money just to subsidize newspapers, television, and page views. In a world without advertisement, tons of content would suddenly lose its revenue stream, without an easy way to monetize attention. Attention would not be profitable on its own.<p>That&#x27;s a negative thing on the face, but I believe content which cannot survive by donation or by subscription deserves to die. Netflix survives already without (third-party) advertisement; Facebook, on the other hand, would collapse. But a social network does not need as many engineers as Facebook does. Without competing against ad-based sites, a less bloated, less attention-sucking social network could replace Facebook. And so on for other sites. SEO blogspam would die, whereas useful and interesting newsletters would survive (as demonstrated by Substack). High-quality TV could survive, but game shows and reality TV would be forced to greatly pare down their offerings. Valuable, accurate subscription news would survive, whereas clickbait news would have no more reason to bait clicks.<p>The alternative to the status quo is that many forms of content would become unprofitable, and I don&#x27;t think that&#x27;s a bad thing.
masalachaiabout 4 years ago
The problem of scattered attention is one that philosophers have been pointing to since thousands of years. Most practices like mindfulness, meditation, yoga help primarily with more conscious attention management. That attention is scattered&#x2F;captured is not new. What it gets captured by probably changes every decade.<p>I dislike seeing ads, especially when they are poorly or intentionally designed to block you from doing what you came to site for. And I do have a concern about the amount of detail these companies end up accruing about a user and its implications. I also get distracted by them - but only when I don&#x27;t have an intention or strong need to focus on the task at hand.<p>This does not make me think that ads themselves or the model itself is fundamentally bad. A model, ultimately is, as good or bad as its implementation. GMail, Google Maps, Android are some of the things that have changed the landscape in significant and positive ways, and all of them were made possible by ad tech.
djoldmanabout 4 years ago
I find it interesting how ethics seems to play a large part in the discussion about ads and big tech in general on HN.<p><i>Putting aside the privacy and PII concerns</i>, it seems like there is a large contingent of HN&#x27;ers who are uncomfortable with the idea that websites&#x2F;apps are addictive or manipulative or otherwise take advantage of flaws in human nature. For instance: we like shiny things with lots of colors&#x2F;movement, we generally leave things on default, we engage with hate&#x2F;dissent more readily than other things, etc.<p>Many HN&#x27;ers seem to be uncomfortable with this even if the people using these websites&#x2F;apps are adults.<p>This seems to fly directly in the face of another seemingly wide-held opinion: that the rights of an individual to make their own choices should not be abridged, regardless of what those choices are, who they are, what they believe in, etc. as long as they are adults.<p>I wonder how these two beliefs coexist although perhaps I&#x27;ve misread the room.
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falcolasabout 4 years ago
Unpopular opinion: Ads by themselves are unethical. Whether targeted, contextual, or just randomly applied.<p>Ads are psychological warfare against a populace using their very nature against them. All in an effort to get them to change their behavior in a way that&#x27;s going to be detrimental to them. Either they stop looking for alternatives, or they make purchases they don&#x27;t need to (see: toothpaste consumption rates).<p>Ads are unethical, and are only considered acceptable because they have been around for so long, and because they&#x27;re &quot;easy&quot; to use and supposedly ignore. Anyone working in the ad industry is directly supporting this unethical behavior. This isn&#x27;t an &quot;NTP is also used in cyber warfare&quot; style of engagement, this is writing missile guidance systems levels of engagement.
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cblconfederateabout 4 years ago
&quot;ads are good&quot; is a red herring. i don&#x27;t object to ads, but i find google&#x27;s chokehold on the ad market abhorrent, becuase it becomes excusionary, both for publishers and advertisers. Google is thus able to impose e.g. moral codes on what is allowed to be advertised and what content is allowed to be monetized. The solution is indeed micropayments and they exist, like brave.<p>Another drawback of the ad-supported model is that it has created a very pervasive culture of unaccountability. Google has terrible user support because they truly don&#x27;t care about users - they &#x27;ll keep making money regardless of what their users think and there&#x27;s no way for users to vote with their feet (practically -- after all google gatekeeps all their address bars).
euskeabout 4 years ago
This is kind of crazy thought experiment, but would the Internet be really different today if there&#x27;s no ads? (e.g. somehow it&#x27;s been considered extremely uncool from the beginning so it&#x27;s naturally shunned.) Many ad-supporters spread a doomsday scenario like &quot;without ads, the vast majority of the good Internet will die&quot;. Is that really true?<p>I dunno. Maybe it&#x27;s different. But I still put up my contents (writings and source codes) for free with no ads. And it&#x27;s not so strange to imagine that there are many people like me. Maybe a newspaper would put up a part of their articles for promotion. In that case, the contents themselves are ads. That&#x27;s not such a bad world either!
diveanonabout 4 years ago
Its hard to see the problem when your livelihood depends on ignoring it.<p>I don&#x27;t think anyone is arguing that serving ads for consumer products and services is evil. Definitely annoying, but not morally wrong.<p>However that is not what is happening. Some of the largest companies in the history of the world are actively building and profiting from platforms that allow political parties and governments to distribute targeted propaganda and digest huge amounts of personal information collected under intentionally obfuscated terms of service.<p>If you are working at google &#x2F; facebook &#x2F; twitter you are just as responsible as the scientists and engineers who worked on the Manhattan project. You are the destroyer of worlds.
adamqureshiabout 4 years ago
I have a 1 man shop start up ( marketplace) and i charge an upfront fee to list. The very fist thing an interested party asks me is, what isn&#x27;t free to list? The big boys platform in this space make it free to list and they make money from ads. A small time guy like me in a niche market has to charge an upfront fee to pay to put food on the table for my family and i don&#x27;t run ads on my site and i don&#x27;t use cookies. Most people are so USED to free that it&#x27;s a shock to them i charge a fee to list on my site. Advertising has SHAPED their behavior. Thats my 2 cents. I have been in business since 2016. Never ran third party ads on my site.
coldteaabout 4 years ago
Because of the salary?
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blakesterzabout 4 years ago
<p><pre><code> The question is, what is the alternative? I see two main funding models: Paywalls. You pay with your money. Ads. You pay with your attention. </code></pre> I guess That question seems good, but with ads, I don&#x27;t feel like I&#x27;m paying with my attention, I&#x27;m paying with my personal data. I&#x27;m paying by sharing what I&#x27;m doing with a seemingly infinite number of companies who turn around and buy and sell all that data and build profiles on me that are then bought or sold. I&#x27;m paying with my privacy, not my attention.
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luxpirabout 4 years ago
I wonder if something like the radio&#x2F;royalty model wouldn&#x27;t work as a replacement for ads. You pay ISP, they are the &quot;radio station&quot; playing what you want to hear, they pay micropayments to all the sites you visited proportionally.<p>I can immediately see significant issues (user data, managing payments, admin, biggest sites get bigger etc.) but if there&#x27;s a market demand for a new model, it wouldn&#x27;t even have to be regulated initially. It could be a feature offered by an innovative ISP. A sort of patron model for general browsing.<p>My 2 cents fwiw.
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OOPManabout 4 years ago
People will say anything to feel like they&#x27;re not doing a dirty job...
dmitriidabout 4 years ago
&gt; And so: ads. Funding the open web.<p>Nope. Ads are not funding the open web.<p>The vast majority of ad revenue and spending goes into the pockets of Facebook (openly hostile to the idea of an open web) and Google (sneakily hostile to the open web, and busy working on replacing the web with all things Google).<p>Actual open web partially supported by advertisement? I don&#x27;t think it ever existed. And when it did, it sure as hell didn&#x27;t require pervasive 24&#x2F;7 surveillance of everyone.
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aphextronabout 4 years ago
There&#x27;s nothing wrong with ads. But the only adtech we need is &lt;img src=&quot;ad.jpg&quot; &#x2F;&gt;. Anything else is indefensibly unethical and anti-user.
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johanneskanybalabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s one of those things people will look back in 10 years at and wonder how we thought that was ok. Driving one of the most important innovations of our time with data driven praying of people&#x27;s weakest spots. Says something about how many decades behind our financial system is compared to everything else. Haven&#x27;t clicked on an ad in 20 years but apparently others do, just install an add blocker.
gerdesjabout 4 years ago
This is good skills: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;donations" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.jefftk.com&#x2F;donations</a><p>The author seems to have fallen into the classic trap of conflating media&#x2F;medium and content. Content can be free (or not) but getting it to eyeballs requires additional effort that is rarely free&#x2F;gratis (your ISP charges you).
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jarrell_markabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve been using scroll.com. It removes ads on many sites for $5 per month (Vox, The Atlantic, USA Today, Kotaku, ...). Apparently sites make more from scroll subscribers on average than they do from folks seeing ads. Twitter just announced they bought scroll.<p>As for this article, I think it is good to find a way to have targeted ads while preserving privacy.
Gatskyabout 4 years ago
Fair enough argument.<p>I do note that this chap has put his actual salary numbers on the internet. This definitely places him in the minority in terms of willingness to share private data. Most people don&#x27;t have this level of comfort I would guess. This should probably be taken into account when considering his opinions on targeted advertising.
powerappleabout 4 years ago
ads don&#x27;t fund the open internet, rather it funds the huge valuation of the internet company. Why internet companies valuation is so much higher than the grocery store around the corner? it does not need to be.<p>I don&#x27;t hate ads, I don&#x27;t mind it at all to be honest. I use Instagram just for ads :) Restaurants, hotels, we need
spoonjimabout 4 years ago
I understand many of the problems with targeted ads, because humans’ “idea immune systems” are not great and easily manipulated. However I’ve gotten some targeted ads that I really really loved. One was for a baby plate that can’t be flung on the ground and has saved me at least 50 hours in cleaning through two children.
tpoacherabout 4 years ago
Of course ads are not inherently evil in a black-and-white manner. Like knifes. Or guns. Still need to be regulated though, as left unchecked can cause great harm. And currently we see more harm than good from this model.<p>I think the author is simply vieweing this as a binary issue due to cognitive dissonance &#x2F; moral disengagement.
marketchairabout 4 years ago
Its a trope at this point, but a major point missed by the author is opportunity cost. Haven&#x27;t we reached a point where optimizing that many basis points of incremental sales isn&#x27;t worth what new solutions we could build with all these engineers&#x27; time?
stephc_int13about 4 years ago
Advertising is not inherently bad.<p>The concentration of power in a few handful gigantic corporations is.
samfisher83about 4 years ago
According to the sec disclosures the 3 highest paying tech companies are Google, Splunk, and Facebook. They all happen to be among the 10 best paying public companies in America. 2 of the 3 are almost completely funded by ad money.
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karmakazeabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m all for content-only based ads that take a reasonable amount&#x2F;location of screen space, minimal&#x2F;no distracting motions, very low computational expenditure.<p>How about making ad containers on a page that enforces these?
cm2012about 4 years ago
Agree with all. Reposting an old comment of mine:<p>Solving world hunger is obviously better than ads, but I&#x27;d say in the scheme of things tech people spend their time on, ad improvements is middling in importance? It&#x27;s not the bottom. Good ad targeting means:<p>1) New small businesses (like Shopify stores) can reach customers without going through retail gatekeepers. Ask any Shopify seller, nothing beats FB.<p>2) New challenger SaaS brands can get in front of customers to compete with mammoth corporate brands with worse software (I see this all the time on my job).<p>3) Without good ad targeting, only bottom hanging fruit advertisers that appeal to the lowest common denominator can afford to spend. Weight loss, teeth whitening, etc. Good ad targeting means a better user experience with ads.
knorkerabout 4 years ago
&gt; the basic problem that some people have much more disposable income than others<p>That&#x27;s the <i>basic</i> problem? We tried communism. It doesn&#x27;t work.<p>&gt; And so: ads. Funding the open web.<p>Or to put it another way: Ads waste human life and productivity.<p>If you waste 10 seconds of Elon Musk&#x27;s time, yes actually the world just lost more than if you waste 10 seconds of my time.<p>And if you let me pay $1 instead of wasting my time, then I can spend that time being productive for more than $1, adding more to the collective value of the world.<p>Wasting everyone&#x27;s time equally is actually hurting everyone, because it means taking away the positive-sum value produced by exchange of values.<p>I&#x27;m not saying inequality isn&#x27;t a problem, but man, you say that ANY difference in equality of disposable income is a PROBLEM? That&#x27;s just a race to the bottom of caring or doing anything at all for other people.
jokethrowawayabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t think ads are bad per se, people don&#x27;t like them because they don&#x27;t like paying.<p>No-one is forcing you to see ads and often you have the option to buy your way out of ads. More in general if people preferred to pay we see a paid alternative emerge, thanks to the nature of the market. The reality is that the majority of people are not privacy conscious and don&#x27;t care as much as people in tech do.<p>Overall, I&#x27;d be prouder to work on Google Ads, which provides services on a voluntary basis, than to work for the IRS or HMRC which impose their government&#x27;s decisions on people under threat of fines and eventually incarceration.
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zackkridaabout 4 years ago
Most people I know work on ads...to get paid. I feel like the author is really working hard to justify his work to himself and falling far short of the bar.
xystabout 4 years ago
Regardless of what this author thinks. Advertising is the bane of our existence. How many hours have we wasted watching advertisements (whether it&#x27;s in the form of network television, billboards, radio ads, or intermittent ads in VOD sites like YT)?<p>If your product is good, then you wouldn&#x27;t need to advertise (take for example, Ferrari or Lamborghini). If companies focused on making their products better rather than spend hundreds of millions of dollars on advertising a half baked product, it would make the world so much better.
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decasteveabout 4 years ago
If I&#x27;m trying to read, watch, or listen to something of a thoughtful nature, something that requires my utmost attention to grasp or process, and reflect upon it, ads are destructive. They destroy the experience and slow or limit the learning process. If everything we do is interrupted, it&#x27;s an attack on our thoughts and disrespectful of our time.<p>Our Internet experiences are becoming Ray Bradbury&#x27;s worst nightmare, interspersed with its &quot;Denham&#x27;s Dentifrice&quot; ads and Facebook Mildreds everywhere.
koonsoloabout 4 years ago
Most people here seem to hate ads and&#x2F;or find them unethical.<p>So I was wondering if those people either not watch YouTube or pay for premium?
rpdillonabout 4 years ago
It&#x27;s curious that neither the OP nor the comments address the incentives funding via advertising creates. While I strongly agree about issues surrounding the data collection and tracking systems used to target ads, I&#x27;m thinking about the publisher&#x27;s side.<p>For a subscription service (paywalled), users are making an up-front decision to pay for the content an outlet publishes because they believe in some sense that the writing is worth it. This is a pretty intellectual thing to do, since you have to actually enter payment details and select a plan. It&#x27;s fundamentally a premeditated act.<p>The advertising-based model is closer to the lizard-brain, I think. To a first approximation, it seems that ad-based funding created the whole world of &quot;click bait&quot;: low quality articles with catchy headlines designed to increase ad views by tapping into peoples&#x27; curiosity. This model is the opposite of premeditated: it&#x27;s almost subconscious and driven by moment-to-moment impulse. And I think web-based advertising incentivizes this greatly, to the point that the low-quality content designed to be engaged with impulsively is driving who gets elected.<p>I don&#x27;t have high conviction that my thinking here is correct, but the dots do seem to connect, and I don&#x27;t see it discussed much. I raise it here because while I abhor the data gathering associated with ad targeting, if I&#x27;m honest with myself, I think the harm coming from click-bait content online is more tangible today than the harm from the data collection.
danny_kreabout 4 years ago
The author writes &quot;One answer is that I&#x27;m earning to give: I give half of what I earn to the most effective charities I can find, and the more I earn the more I can give.&quot;<p>If I walked into your neighbor&#x27;s home, robbed $3,000 from them and then gave half of what I stole to some charity would you consider me to be a good guy?<p>Am I the only one that finds the first answer to be mad logic?
aflagabout 4 years ago
&gt; Typically, the vendor doesn&#x27;t just get that you are interested in cars, they get the full URL of the page you are on.<p>I&#x27;d say that knowing you&#x27;re interested in cars is also a violation of your privacy. Knowing that people that are in car festivals may be interested in cars is ok, but knowing that a person attended to a car festival is not ok.
tailrecursionabout 4 years ago
The problem I see is that the advertising business enables free services such as Google and Youtube, Facebook, Twitter to dominate. It&#x27;s even more difficult for a potential competitor to gain users when competing against a free service. Another is the spying and tracking, which are apparently vital for these big companies to grow.
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unsungNoveltyabout 4 years ago
Let&#x27;s get one thing straight, we the users don&#x27;t like ads that are intrusive, manipulating and data generating when it doesn&#x27;t have to be. This guy makes it look like (or want to make it look like) we are complaining about ads. No, we just don&#x27;t want to be tracked. Simple.<p>He is also just normalising the whole surveillance part by not bringing it up, ever! All he is doing is talking about the top layer of what an ad is and what it is for and how the users are interacting with them etc. This doesn&#x27;t talk about tracking your ip address, your location across services, your search history, your video watching history and everything else that you have interacted with. Then using it to manipulate you.<p>And I actually think it has been extremely smart and cunning to play the mind game of &quot;look, it is not for you, it is for the smaller and poor people who can&#x27;t afford it. THE POOR PEOPLE!&quot;. This works I am sure.<p>Facebook literally did this by displaying ads on big news papers on behalf of &quot;small businesses&quot; when they were threatened by Apple&#x27;s privacy features which actually protected the end users.<p>Ad businesses like Ad Sense etc in it&#x27;s current form doesn&#x27;t do anything else than being intrusive and eventually become used against you by businesses to manipulate you or govts to oppress you.<p>I will give a simple example. The ads that comes as sponsored in youtube channels where the youtube creator gives a shout out to some services &#x2F; products, or ads in podcasts that are directly related to the content of the creator things definitely have more impact on the creators monetary department. You would&#x27;ve heard a lot of youtube creators admitting the same.<p>SO YES, ADS WORK. SURVEILLANCE, MANIPULATING AD BUSINESS LIKE AD SENSE DOESN&#x27;T!<p>I would suggest people to keep questioning these kind of smart people to work on something worth while than tracking and not to mention shadow tracking people to just create data which can be sold to third parties which the end users are unaware of, among soo many other things. In all sense, jeezz! Get a life!!<p>PS: This would be my one and probably only &quot;cut the bulshit honey comment&quot; when I know these people are smart enough to understand the consequences but want to virtue signal by saying, I donate to good causes blah blah blah. This is a very common and well put consistent messaging we&#x2F;I have been hearing over and over. So yeah, I don&#x27;t want to give a benefit of the doubt.
imwillofficialabout 4 years ago
If ads were simply “paying with attention” like in the 90s, generally people wouldn’t mind as much. But when ads bring a ton of privacy violating, subtly manipulating, resource hogging baggage, people get angry. So I find His arguments disingenuous at best.
wzddabout 4 years ago
&gt; Paywalls. You pay with your money.<p>&gt; Ads. You pay with your attention.<p>Pretty disingenuous. Ads: You pay with your attention, and, ultimately, either your money or the money of someone who trusts you. This is only not the case to the extent that advertising doesn&#x27;t actually work, in which case the ethical problems have not stopped for this person.
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titzerabout 4 years ago
The article completely misses it. I used to work at Google, too, in Ads (the organization), but not <i>on</i> Ads. Most of the people I know were pretty focused on building their little corner of tech to accomplish a particular technical feat (implement a datastore, find bad ads, etc). None of the people I met were evil money-grubber types.<p>But there was a certain reality-distortion field that only becomes apparent when stepping out of it.<p>Ads exist in order to <i>sell your attention</i> to the highest bidder. Ads exist to support an <i>exponentially growing</i> tech giant&#x27;s goals of infinite growth. Ads exist to keep a snowball snowballing. There is <i>no ads business</i> on Earth today that is focused on &quot;just keeping the lights on&quot;. So the amount of ads that are out there just keeps increasing. Ads are creeping into every corner of life.<p>Just take Google search. If you look at the amount of computational resources that it takes Google to run search for today&#x27;s internet, it takes X dollars. But Google&#x27;s revenues are literally <i>5</i> X, if not <i>10</i> or <i>20</i>. Google is sucking down a huge ton of money that is going to growth and funding zillions of other things...that will also eventually get ads, like Maps, reviews, YouTube, etc. Second, this &quot;X dollars to run search&quot; we are talking about is probably somewhere between 10 and 100 times what was required just a few short years ago. So we are talking about throwing 100 or 200 times--maybe even 1000, just look at the racks of Google made from legos from 1999!--the amount of computational power at a problem than it really needs, and that&#x27;s to support the advertising market that Google has created in order to support search.<p>If Google websearch were a non-profit, I think it would require less than a billion dollars to run every year. For perspective, the United States Federal Government spent over $85 billion on the SNAP (food stamps) program last year.<p>So, instead of spending pocket change on a public utility that gives everyone access to &quot;organized, universally accessible&quot; (to borrow Google&#x27;s mission statement) information, we have this behemoth focused on generating hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue that just accidentally happens to have a massive influence over <i>everything we see</i>.<p>You work on ads, Jeff? You&#x27;ve clearly done a lot of thinking as to why that&#x27;s great. Me? I bowed out of the entity trying to attach a tacky flyer for Ovaltine to every book, magazine, news article, and video clip I see. I bowed out of an entity whose main existence is apparently to mediate every interaction I have with a computer--or another person--and insert advertising into.<p>I&#x27;m actually really sick of ads!
DistressedDroneabout 4 years ago
This guy <i>works in ad tech</i> and this is the extent of their moral reasoning on the issue? This is about one argument and 90% history. Better to say you don&#x27;t want to think about how the sausage is made.<p>Many have commented on the inherently harmful nature of advertisement, so I would like to address the one argument I see in there, it goes something like must &quot;ads must exist or else we would have to pay for content&quot;. But even this seems to me largely unfounded. By excluding &quot;donations and hobbies&quot;, what the author is really saying is &quot;ads must exist or else the content we get would be different (read: worse)&quot;.<p>I see no reason to believe this. The sources of information I find reliable are ones based on consensus, eg Wikipedia. If anything, I find getting information from traditional media <i>less</i> reliable than getting it directly from random people, as the latter don&#x27;t have a financial interest to present only certain types of information or present the information in certain biased ways. The bigger a news corporation is, the more interest it has in 1) relying on fearmongering and 2) conforming to a &quot;current government&quot; bias (as we have seen to horrible effect when Trump was president). As for entertainment, it is doubtful that anyone could become a millionaire with daily vlogs or let&#x27;s plays as they can today, but I personally know of many that would be glad to just make a living. It&#x27;s also improbable that a single big website such as YouTube would totally dominate the video sharing landscape, as they wouldn&#x27;t be able to rely on ads to do so. Incidentally, getting rid of ads would solve the &quot;advertiser friendly&quot; problem that plagues mass media, small content creators and consumers alike.<p>In short, saying &quot;ads are the only way&quot; seems to me the same as saying &quot;the web is have is the best version of the web&quot; or even &quot;it&#x27;s the only web we can have&quot;. I disagree on both counts, and I for one can&#x27;t wait until the house of cards crumbles.
posharmaabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;ll probably get downvoted for this. Why does OP need to justify his&#x2F;her job in adtech? He&#x2F;she loves the job and probably pays well. That&#x27;s it. Period. Why go about convincing strangers!
makecheckabout 4 years ago
Ads are bad because of their implementation, not as a concept.<p>The “alternatives” are not paywalls vs. ads, the alternative is to be a less awful ad provider.<p>Unintrusive text is fine. Static images without flashy animations are fine. Even watching something like a funny TV commercial is great because it seems worth the time.<p>Yet somewhere along the line, somebody decided it was “fine” to shove overlays in my face, stubbornly keep things in place during scrolling, auto-playing sound, etc. And all that crap is before even factoring in the gigabytes of bandwidth <i>stolen</i> from me to download and run JavaScript that ultimately serves to be a creepy stalker around the Internet.<p>So feel free to work on ads without shame as long as the ads you work on aren’t shameless.
the-pigeonabout 4 years ago
This analysis starts with a straw-man.<p>&gt; So: why is advertising good? I mean, isn&#x27;t it annoying when sites show you ads instead of whatever it is you want to read? The question is, what is the alternative? I see two main funding models:<p>&gt; Paywalls. You pay with your money.<p>&gt; Ads. You pay with your attention.<p>Anyone on the internet prior to 2000 knows people make content just to make content. I would strongly argue that the wave of &quot;everything must be monetized&quot; has been entirely negative. While it&#x27;s made the quantity of content go way up, it&#x27;s polluted everything with clickbait. Whereas before you used to get much higher quality content due to them being passion projects and not people trying to make money.
kalialiabout 4 years ago
This is an ad to make AI advertisers look positive.
gfodorabout 4 years ago
&gt; I see ads as a force for good<p>&gt; I feel OK about working on it because I give half my salary to charity<p>Cognitive dissonance that occurs <i>between sentences</i> is particularly hilarious.
TedShillerabout 4 years ago
I’ll never know since I block them all
gdsdfeabout 4 years ago
Sorry but this is a bunch of BS, why work on ads? Because you get a big fat check at the end of the month, and that perfectly fine.
alienthrowawayabout 4 years ago
Speaking as someone from the developing world - ads have been excellent way for 1st-world eyeballs to subsidize access to information for the rest of the world - which is a net-positive from my selfish POV. Money from ads allows people who live on less than a dollar a day to have access to the same content as someone in a sea-side villa. Mostly.<p>Paywalls, subscriptions and micropayment are regressive, unless they are indexed by cost of living.
inopinatusabout 4 years ago
The google content marketing division are really going hard trying to foist this flock-of-sheep stuff.
ransom1538about 4 years ago
Why I Work on Ads:<p>money.
stevenicrabout 4 years ago
Someone who works on ads!? Thank goodness.<p>recent experience:<p>Friend needs to google ads for new location in another state. I say call google and get setup - your web site is good - and they will actually answer the phone when you call for this.<p>Couple months later - zero calls for new clients.<p>I take a peek into his campaign - it&#x27;s set on some new fangled &#x27;smart ads&#x27; - there is like almost no data on keyword clicks and such.<p>I mention that it&#x27;s odd for ads for a specific niche (rolfing) to burn through a few thousand dollas in ads and not being a single new customer. (he laughs &#x27;there is no way it&#x27;s been thousands of dollars&#x27; - I did not laugh and said yes you have spent thousands already I can see THAT in your stats - he had no idea)<p>He reaches out for support via phone and help forms. Eventually I do the same.<p>The pain one must go through filling out these long forms with lots of entries to get support - omg.<p>No one can figure out where the money went, which search phrases, etc. I start to work on negative keywords lists and location radius.. it burns another 2 grand - with no stats.<p>Support is delayed - even India is delaying things with covid at that point.. messaging is sparse - basic answer is we took your money, you agreed, sorry you got zero business.<p>His bank account wiped out and he did not even know it was happening. I think he panicked with his bank and they cancelled his debit card about that time.<p>I tried to create a new campaign for him that would be exact match and have good negative keywords at that point that would actually get clients and not waste clicks.. but his account was frozen.<p>More support attempts.. weeks later - a message saying similar to - pay us another $1800 - smart ads don&#x27;t do good stats - sorry about your luck.<p>I had paused the smart ads campaign that google set up and created a better one - but at that point my friend was so soured on the google experience, and the ripoff that he did not want to pay the additional $1800 that could not be charged to his cancelled card.<p>Short story long.. this campaign was not setup and run by an ad agency - google set it up. It was a complete waste of money and time and it has hurt the brand not just wit the two of us, but others we share details on this.<p>I suggested they refund 1800 and let him start fresh with the new setup I created.. more long forms to fill out.. eventually no dice.<p>There was a time when I helped businesses with google ads and it made several places successful for some time. What google has become with their lack of customer support and transparency is mind boggling to me.<p>If the yellow pages helped customers make ads and charged 3 grand a month to run them and in turn zero new customers called - I would imagine there would be less ads in those sections next year.<p>Anyhow your google ad folks essentially took advantage of a 70 year old and wiped his bank account - and returned zero benefits.<p>Might be time for some changes with how all that works - maybe just stop the retail side of doing ads for small folks and make them go through an agency so you can place the blame elsewhere - or&#x2F;and maybe an agency would do a better job making sure there were proper stats and return on investment in order to keep paying clients in business.<p>Right now the metrics and reports of taking money from small businesses while paying folks in India to sell and support it - it&#x27;s really not working as well as it might look in those quarterly spreadsheets.<p>imho - ymmv.
move-on-byabout 4 years ago
Ads are fine. I don&#x27;t like them, but they are fine. Targeted ads are fine too. I don&#x27;t like them either, but they are fine.<p>The privacy invading tactics used to drive those targeted ads are not fine. They are abusive, manipulative, and covert. I am not in Europe, so perhaps I&#x27;m bias, but I also don&#x27;t see regulation of the data collection industry via the GDPR as improving the situation much. It seems to have just moved the goal posts for being more manipulative to gain permission. From my totally outsider point-of-view it seems the only way to effectively limit this privacy-invading data collection is to regulate how the data can be used vs. the collection itself. Heavily regulating the ad targeting itself vs. the data collection would mean even if you did collect the data, it loses its value to the advertisers. This also allows more legitimate data collection such as error reporting to continue as-is without the burden of extra regulation.<p>Anyways, that is my point of view on it. I would be interested to hear other&#x27;s opinions on it, perhaps from those in industry.
Retr0spectrumabout 4 years ago
The problem is not Ads themselves, it&#x27;s the fact that they inject perverse incentives into the entire tech ecosystem.<p>To maximize your advertising revenue, you need to track your users as effectively as possible. This:<p>a) Reduces user privacy. Even recent developments like FLoC, which appear to be pro-privacy on the surface, are really just yet another datapoint with which to violate the privacy of users.<p>b) Reduces performance. It&#x27;s easy to blame trendy bloated tech stacks for the state of the web, but the reality is that a big chunk of the slowness comes from ad-related tracking and delivery technologies (install privacy extensions on a low-end system and see the difference!). This reduced performance disproportionately affects those with lower system and network resources, further reinforcing global inequality.<p>Although some will disagree, I do think that it&#x27;s <i>possible</i> to advertise ethically, but no large corporation operating in a capitalist society is going to be doing that voluntarily - unless strict regulation comes down from above (Spoiler Alert: It won&#x27;t).<p>All that said, I don&#x27;t blame the author for working in adtech, but perhaps only due to my rather bleak perspective that we&#x27;re all just cogs in the capitalist machine whether we like it or not.<p>Don&#x27;t hate the player, hate the game.<p>P.S: Cynically, I think the author&#x27;s announcement of their charitable donations counts against them. It makes it seem like he&#x27;s trying to &quot;offset&quot; the harm caused by his work, even if he won&#x27;t openly admit that such harm exists. Charitable donations may make you a net-virtuous individual, but they do nothing to address the harm of adtech itself - which is orthogonal to the author&#x27;s original claim that they believe that advertising is a good thing.
Jiejeingabout 4 years ago
Working in adtech and trying to convince yourself (and others) you are doing the world a favor is a real equilibrium exercise.<p>The false dichotomy between ads&#x2F;paywall is not really useful, when the reality is that you often get a paywall <i>and</i> ads after you agree to pay. The advertisement industry is a cancerous blight of our societies, its sole purpose is to sell us stuff we do not need to increase a company’s profit. The fact that this is done on the web by plundering our personal data with no regard for our privacy is just the cherry on top. Ads business is unhinged capitalism and a social and ecological disaster, and advocating in its favor today is short-sighted at best.<p>It’s fine to work a job you like in an unethical industry, but it is not necessary to try to sell it to other people.
ajkjkabout 4 years ago
Like others I don&#x27;t buy this argument.<p>They wrote that the two choices are<p>&gt; Paywalls. You pay with your money.<p>&gt; Ads. You pay with your attention.<p>But that&#x27;s not quite right. Ads have two options themselves:<p>&gt; Ads. You pay with your money, because the ads get you to buy stuff.<p>&gt; Ads. You pay with your attention, wasted on stuff you&#x27;ll never buy.<p>Two negatives. Either you buy stuff you otherwise wouldn&#x27;t (and therefore don&#x27;t need, and were manipulated into buying), or you don&#x27;t buy stuff and just have to suffer the attack on your attention in a world where your attention is already strained to its limits. No good outcomes here.<p>No argument for ads works if you believe, like I do, that buying things in general is bad -- bad for you, bad for the human race, and bad for the environment.
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rerbrerbabout 4 years ago
Because money.
alkonautabout 4 years ago
&gt; Paywalls. You pay with your money. &gt; Ads. You pay with your attention<p>If you work on ads that only take my <i>attention</i> then you work on good ads, and I completely support that. If, however, you feel that your ads must try to pinpoint my identity by harvesting personal information in the name of &quot;targeting&quot; or &quot;fraud prevention&quot;, then that&#x27;s no longer me paying with my attention, it&#x27;s me paying with my privacy and integrity.
vim1234about 4 years ago
I think what HN community is missing is that tech jobs can allow you to pay for all these services if possible, but most of the world especially the developing world, is not capable of paying for the content. If everything was behind paywalls, internet would be for the rich guys who can afford paying for these services. To make it free and equal for all, ads are the necessarily evil, according to me.
pgcj_posterabout 4 years ago
&gt; The question is, what is the alternative? I see two main funding models: &#x2F; Paywalls. You pay with your money. &#x2F; Ads. You pay with your attention.<p>There&#x27;s also the alternative-which-must-not-be-named, which is non-regressive and frictionless: socialism. You pay with money, through taxes.
omginternetsabout 4 years ago
I&#x27;m always surprised that someone would go through the trouble of justifying their involvement in something <i>prima facie</i> unethical -- in writing, no less -- and fail to address the <i>actual</i> ethical issue. As other have noted in comments, the problem is not with advertising in general, but with the specific way in which Google advertises.<p>I have a hard time believing the author is unaware of this, so I&#x27;m left wondering: why? What was the point of this exercise? The result is closer to a self-indictment than an apology.
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kingsuper20about 4 years ago
The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy.<p>The only reasonably accurate targeting I&#x27;ve ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I&#x27;ve never clicked on an internet ad. Youtube advertising might as well be targeted to an alien race. What in the hell keeps this whole business afloat at it&#x27;s current level? Am I being programmed to buy that mechanic&#x27;s vise because they threw up an after-the-browse ad?<p>No doubt there&#x27;s some sort of backend telemetry that proves the value of all this trouble, but I just don&#x27;t see it. Maybe the emperor really is nekkid.<p>edit: It may well be that the real marketing genius in the advertising industry is not it&#x27;s value in increasing sales, whether it&#x27;s old school print media&#x2F;OTA&#x2F;tradeshows or the newfangled spying-on-you internet variety, but in convincing it&#x27;s customers of advertising&#x27;s value. Anything beyond pushing you up a search engine&#x27;s ranking strikes me as a sketchy proposition.
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lupireabout 4 years ago
People wo believe that &quot;tool makers aren&#x27;t responsible for how the tool is misused&quot; (for example, with cryptocurrency), do you feel the same way about adtech?
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bongobingoabout 4 years ago
&gt; Ads. You pay with your attention.<p>What? No. You pay with your data. You pay with your privacy.<p>And the ads additionally destroy legitimate paid services. Ads have destroyed the entire internet economy, and brought upon a surveillance state.<p>This blog post is more detached from reality than the Q board on 8kun.
notsobigabout 4 years ago
Not only do you spend your day job helping to clutter our web experience, suck up our personal data, and track us across the web, but you want to spend your free time whoring out your blog to us to try to justify the career choice you feel guilty about?<p>Just stop. We get one chance on earth, do something of value.
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jurschreuderabout 4 years ago
The alternative is to pay 20ct a year not $10 a month
sdfhbdfabout 4 years ago
Very interesting point of view. My main takeaway from this is &quot;Better ads than paywalls&quot; which entails that the only alternative to ads is a paywall which I don&#x27;t agree with. I think that there is a middleground with freemium, free trial model.<p>Also there was a comment somewhere I can&#x27;t find right now &quot;There are 2 ways to make money in the internet - bundling and unbundling&quot; with this I think there is value of a paywall that bundles, see Apple News. In the end I don&#x27;t like the way AdTech works right now, I am not sure about what&#x27;s next. I don&#x27;t think explicit regulation is the way, especially since Internet is international and law is as a rule local. But either we will sell our data to monopolies or we will die in bills for selfhosting everything and even though involuntarily our internet histories will be sold.
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ineedasernameabout 4 years ago
<i>I give half of what I earn to the most effective charities I can find</i><p>That&#x27;s not at all justification for practices that harm society, especially when that harm takes fewer resources to achieve than charity donations can make up for. It&#x27;s like saying &quot;I&#x27;m willing to work for a company with massive pollution because I donate some of my salary to Greenpeace.&quot;<p>Maybe I&#x27;m reading too much into things, but the fact that the author put this justification first is an implicit admission that they feel what they do is wrong in some way and try to offset it with donations.<p><i>The thing is, I think advertising is positive</i><p>It is difficult to think otherwise about something attached to your paycheck<p><i>I think advertising is positive... if I&#x27;m causing harm through my work I would like to know about it.</i><p>One really great example of harm is propaganda delivered via political attack ads that polarize the population by provoking anger, fear, and hatred.<p><i>Ads. You pay with your attention.</i><p>You aren&#x27;t given a choice in most cases to choose attention or $$. You also pay with more than attention: your privacy, personal data, and tracking of online actions. Many off-line actions can also be tracked by purchasing data from other sources and matching to the data collected online.<p><i>Non-regressive</i><p>This would be a better point if many media outlets didn&#x27;t still use paywalls and ads together
ForHackernewsabout 4 years ago
This article is really attacking a straw man. I don&#x27;t know many people who think advertising <i>per se</i> is morally objectionable (annoying, yes).<p>What many people find reprehensible is all the invasive spyware and tracking that comes with modern ad tech (largely pioneered by Google).
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secondcomingabout 4 years ago
I work in adtech. The actual ads themselves aside, the backend part of it ticks all the tech boxes:<p>- high QPS feeds<p>- massive volumes of data<p>- interesting problems to solve everyday<p>It&#x27;s an industry that doesn&#x27;t stand still.
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angarg12about 4 years ago
I work in ads, not particularly because I like the domain, but because it&#x27;s a great tech challenge. I got the chance to work in large scale systems and solve hard problems using fun technologies. As an engineer, it&#x27;s my favourite job so far.<p>Beyond that, people who ask such things are just taking the moral high ground.
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sidllsabout 4 years ago
The humblebrag about this individual&#x27;s income and charitable giving at the top of this article is quite terrible. The depth of detail linked is irrelevant to his point (a simple, &quot;I give a lot of my income to charity; the more I earn, the more I give&quot; suffices) and, aside from that, isn&#x27;t an argument in support of working on ads. He could earn a similar amount of money working at a business that doesn&#x27;t have ads as a business model (I know this because I work at such a company).
yubioxabout 4 years ago
You don&#x27;t address the issues that most ads are scams and it is possible to accidentally click ads. I recently asked google for directions to a new (to me) dentist while on vacation in Hawaii. As I started driving to the other side of the island I realized maps not taking me to the right town. Turns out apparently another dentist somehow made a scam ad so if you search for directions to the correct dentist it takes you to the scammer dentist instead. This is just one example of many. Screw ads and those who enable them.
celticninjaabout 4 years ago
I don&#x27;t even need to read the article, it&#x27;s money right, it&#x27;s always money.<p>Sure he probably goes into paragraphs about other reasons or what he does with the money, but it boils down to money. The author chose to sell his&#x2F;her time to an advertising company. Thats OK, we all need to work. But I dont need a blog post from them to justify their choice, they arent making me think more of them. They might make themselves feel better but it boils down to they chose to do something not great for more money, than choosing something more worthwhile for less money.<p>The sad bit is the amount they would earn not in advertising probably would not be much below what they currently earn. But they still made that choice and they have to live with it.
Justsignedupabout 4 years ago
I do not believe Ads are inherently evil. However there are some problems with the _current_ ad industry.<p>The extreme tracking based on the mental state and identity of ads make them more than annoying. It is annoying to watch stupid ads on TV. But it is way worse when the ads are targeting my mental weaknesses directed directly at me. Example being how the Cambridge Analytica was able to make ad campaigns targeting _individuals_.<p>Generalized, non-targeted ads are fine. Though I do have problems with ads assaulting me wherever I go. I am fine with visiting a website that is ad supported and getting ads on the side, but I am not fine with walking home and seeing ads everywhere I glance at. And worse when ads are formatted so much like the actual content to trick you into thinking you&#x27;re consuming content and not ads. Or even worse, sponsored pushes when you don&#x27;t even know this is an advertisement.<p>Point is: Things cost money. Yes. But I don&#x27;t think the current ad industry is anything other than toxic as hell.