All: I know it's a topic that brings up strong feelings, but please only post if you're in a curious state [1]—not an agitated one. We all get agitated, because we're all human—but it leads to repetitive, predictable, and eventually nasty internet comments, so please don't go there until that subsides.<p>The story is on topic because it's significant new information [2], but we're only going to get an interesting thread if people stick to the guidelines: <a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html</a>.<p>[1] <a href="https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20curious%20state&sort=byDate&type=comment" rel="nofollow">https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...</a><p>[2] <a href="https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang" rel="nofollow">https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...</a>
I have a personal theory that humans do not fully understand death rate when it's spread out widely across many geographic areas. Let's say, for instance, that the covid19 death rate is about 450 people a day. It might be more or less than that right now, I haven't specifically checked (but I do recall that it's easily been 2000-3000 a day for some periods of time in very recent memory). But that might be 450 people where 1 dies in some town, another 2 die in another city, and so on, totaling 450.<p>Whereas if you were to load a 747-400 with 450 people and fly it into the side of a mountain in one catastrophic absurd event <i>every day of the week</i>, for months, it would be shocking world stopping news. Why? What changed? It's the same number of dead people, right?<p>Following this theory to a further extent, I think it helps to explain a lot about the people who believe covid19 is a "hoax" or a "scam". They don't see it, it isn't splashy and shocking, it's diffuse and spread out in such a way that their instinctual response is to go "just get on with your life...".
How cynical is it to question whether or not this was timed at least in part to bolster economic outlook in the face of the market shrinkage this week over inflation fears?<p>(Experts have been asking for more explicit guidance from the CDC for months now.)<p>Edit: for reference, up until this point, the CDC has not even been willing to concede the safety of outdoor activities: <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-transmission-cdc-number.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/11/briefing/outdoor-covid-tr...</a>
There is a non-paywalled story here. <a href="https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fully-vaccinated-americans-return-life-masks-cdc/story?id=77665771" rel="nofollow">https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/fully-vaccinated-americans-r...</a><p>Neither the NYT nor ABC stories have links to the actual guidance, and I don't see anything about this on cdc.gov. I guess this was embargoed and the story was released before cdc got around to publishing the guidance.<p>Update: Guidance is now at <a href="https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vaccinated-guidance.html" rel="nofollow">https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/fully-vac...</a>
I hope my thinking on this is overly pessimistic but I think wearing masks is going to be perhaps the biggest lightning rod in America for a while. It’s going to act as a proxy issue for many other sociopolitical and psychological issues that will be channeled into this conflict.<p>I think the perhaps the best advice is entirely cliche. We are going to need to respect other people’s choices and try to be as patient and kind as we can.
I find it interesting that the people who screamed "trust/listen to the CDC!" the loudest when the CDC's position was "everyone wear your mask and stay home as much as you can" are now the ones looking hardest for reasons to ignore/downplay/criticize the CDC's guidance.
It’s good to give better incentives for people to be vaccinated, as many have urged for some time.<p>I worry this carrot isn’t tied to an adequate stick - the unvaccinated can simply go without a mask regardless of their status. Will this move actually counter our slowing vaccination rates?
I think it's worth noting that among the demographics that frequent this site there is ostensibly a deep distrust and skepticism of the American government on matters of surveillance, and law enforcement. Yet simultaneously there is ostensibly a high degree of trust in the motives and competency of the American government when it comes to COVID.<p>There's been multiple threads lately, including one that is on the front page as we speak, critical of the American surveillance state. The comments exhibit a high degree of distrust towards the FBI, NSA, and other law-enforcement institutions. This degree of distrust seems almost absolute, yet the word of the CDC seems to be taken as gospel, despite clear hints of politicization of the COVID crisis on their behalf.
On the west coast now more than one third of the population is fully vaccinated (excluding BC that is severely lagging behind).<p>How long until coastal and urban counties reach 95%?
> How to trust that unvaccinated neighbors will wear masks when they should?<p>I find this sentiment curious. It seems to imply that some people would rather that everyone suffer masking than accept that some will not be masked against recommendation. It bleeds over into other things. If we see our neighbour doing something we don't like, we think "there should be a law against that!"<p>There is a lot of distrust and desire to control the behaviour of others in our society. It is a very common human attribute and reminds me of the famous quote from Paradise Lost: "Better to reign in Hell, then serve in Heav'n"<p>Sometimes, it is better to accept that others will do things that we think are stupid or even immoral, but be grateful that they will let us do things that they think are stupid. It takes empathy and humility to accept that other people disagree with us. The desire for control is a dangerous beast.
Its not black and white - we're not going for 100% security. Masks never did that anyway, and it wasn't the point in wearing them. The point was to change 'R0' to less than 1, so the epidemic wouldn't grow geometrically and swamp the healthcare system.<p>It's quite reasonable to say that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the disease than say, an at-risk person wearing a mask. If those two are commensurate, then sure vaccinated people can go maskless.<p>There are social reasons to keep wearing a mask of course. To reduce confusion about who's safe and who's just being negligent. I still wear one in public, and I've been vaccinated.<p>It's popular to back-seat drive during difficult times, and point out gleefully when somebody isn't 100% in line with one's own understanding. It's largely not constructive, and causes more upset and confusion. The best advice is, do your part to reduce infection risk. And stop stirring the pot.
> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.<p>Why doesn't this article fall under this category?
I am glad that things are returning to normal and masks are now optional. I am also really glad that masks have become socially acceptable. I plan to keep wearing a mask on planes and public transportation so I don't get as many colds. I hope it stops being a political thing.
Can anyone offer guidance to one who has recovered from the actual Covid infection why they would receive the vaccine?<p>Edit: This recent caveat included<p>Lasting immunity found after recovery from Covid-19
<a href="https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27125728" rel="nofollow">https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27125728</a>
I’m curious. Does the CDC say the same for people who have had Covid itself? I was not able to read the post (paywalled). Or people who test positive for antibodies?
I feel like mandating masks (in US) at this point is quite pointless, pretty much everyone who wants to protect themselves can get vaccinated (and they most likely did already), so they don't need to worry about serious symptoms and people who don't wanna get vaccinated are clearly not worried about them so why force any of these groups to wear masks? Scared people are protected, not scared don't want protection and are prepare to bear consequences, the group of people who would like to get vaccinated but they can't for medical reasons is extremely small and I don't see similar restrictions because of other risks. So why even bother with recommending to mask anywhere?<p>This makes sense only in countries where you can't get immediately vaccinated (pretty much everywhere outside US and few other countries like Israel).
In the UK (prob not a good example?) masks aren't worn outside but are in shops.<p>Actually it might not be that bad.. on many other things we are terrible though.
It's still unclear whether or not masks helped reduce the spread of COVID-19.<p><a href="https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/" rel="nofollow">https://swprs.org/face-masks-evidence/</a>
My biggest question right now is with my kids who are 7 and under. But also just kids in general. Mainly I’m wondering what kind of evolutionary pressure will be put onto the virus in a population where young children represent a larger and larger target for the virus as adults become vaccinated.<p>Not fear-mongering. It just seems like we still don’t have a good explanation of why kids have (mostly) been spared, and so we don’t seem to have a good explanation of why that would continue to be the case. Also, low risk != low risk, and in places like Brazil, there has been heartbreak with babies dying of Covid, etc.
Someone behind the scenes must be pulling the strings at the CDC as this is terrible advice considering all vaccines are far from being 100% effective.<p>Additionally it takes at least 2wks after inoculation for the vaccine to work and there is no definitive answer on how long the efficacy lasts.<p>All of this combined with the fact that millions of Americans refuse to be vaccinated will serve as prime reservoir for the virus to spread.<p>It was rather troubling when CDC first stated masks were unnecessary but this recent announcement is criminally negligent, on par with Boeing/FAA publicly stating 737 Max was safe even knowing full well there was high probability of another crash.
I don't really understand how places looking to align their precautions with CDC guidelines can do this. We don't have any required vaccination "passport", so if a movie theatre says vaccinated customers don't have to wear masks, how can they possibly tell who is vaccinated without relying on a dubious honor system?
As someone living in a country with very few cases of Covid suffice to say the govt is eagerly watching how this goes.<p>Since this country has good contact tracing they’ve identified multiple cases of fully vaccinated individuals getting infected (all mild so far) and transmitting it to unvaccinated individuals.
For some people the goalposts are moving faster than the speed of light.<p>The goal was to flatten the curve. Remember that? Flatten. The. Curve.<p>Is the curve not flat? How much flatter do you want it to be before returning to normal life? Do you want literally 0.000% risk?
Got some karma to burn so here goes: I disagree with this and the reasons are below.<p>- it is inconsistent and imprecise. Which vaccine? There are a couple of variants now, vaccines have different levels of protection against different variants and the jury is still out on some new up-and-coming things coming out of India. It also makes you ask a couple of questions. Why should you wear the mask when using public transit or healthcare facilities? Wouldn't it be more dangerous or whatever if you're waiting for over an hour at the DMV? What about schools? We can vaccinate >12 yo now. Does this apply to them when in-person schooling?<p>- it sends the wrong message in an already sensitive environment wrt to 'mask wearing'. When Texas lifted the mask mandate, people expected to not be wearing masks everywhere. Vaccinated people who only read headlines will walk into hospitals and get into arguments with the staff because 'that's what the CDC said'.<p>- it is contrary to the current consensus from field epidemiologists [1].<p>- we need to keep in mind that the CDC has public health as a priority. Not your individual private health status. So their goal is to manage large scale outbreaks and not necessarily to make sure that you or your family is safe. This is why guidelines were along the lines of 'gatherings of more than 5 people'. That's not to ensure that those 5 people don't get infected but to ensure that out of the 5 that may, the infection rate will not drown the healthcare system. Anyway, about that, there are still (granted very very few) breakthrough cases. This means that for people who are immunocompromised or have undergone treatments considered risk factors, this guideline needs to raise an eyebrow or two. It is up to the individual to decide what to do. Risk of getting infected vs the convenience of NOT putting on a piece of cloth indoors, which may decrease that risk.<p>- as any guidance requiring self-policing (vaccinated people) this is doomed to fail. I'm sure they ran the numbers and decided that from a public health standpoint the healthcare system will be able to handle small outbreaks here and there...<p>- for some reason it feels like an attempt at creating an incentive for getting a vaccine. This type of thing has the same smell like the initial mask guideline which was intended to protect the supply of PPE.<p>And to the hn-ers screaming 'but the science' 'but the hypocrisy', well it is possible to agree and disagree with the CDC at different times and on different issues. The world is not black/white are we're not in a cult (well, not all of us).<p>[1] <a href="https://archive.is/NIq5q" rel="nofollow">https://archive.is/NIq5q</a><p>On a personal note, I will keep wearing the mask indoors although I'm vaccinated, thank you very much. Another thing I learned since last year is that wearing a mask gives me a level or privacy I only dreamed of. Also I did not get my annual cold. So, as a free American I'll keep wearing it indoors as long as I'm not breaking the law (note that when mask mandates are lifted it's not phrased as 'masks are illegals' but 'masks are not required') and as long as other countries with people flying in and out of are in deep COVID shit. Deep enough to spawn new and improved COVIDs. I'll also reserve the right to tell anyone to fuck right off if they feel strongly about me covering my face when 'look what the CDC is saying' 'but the science we all ignored now agrees with what we wanted to do last year hurr durr'.
The CDC really botched this one. Nobody will be able to take them seriously because either a) their previous guidance was correct and they only updated guidance to encourage more people to get vaccinated, or b) their previous guidance was wrong. Either way, it makes them look foolish and destroys whatever credibility still remained in the institution.
How is this not the top story on every single news aggregator in the world right now?<p>This is like the BEST news since the vaccines were approved. This is a HUGE deal. Great job, CDC!
I would like to see the mathematical analysis that concludes it is unsafe for a vaccinated person to fly on an airplane without a mask while it is safe for a masked unvaccinated person.
To an essential worker, how can they tell if someone is vaccinated or not? This is like when I got citizenship they told us all that as citizens we no longer needed to prove our citizenship (which may be true, but anyone could claim to be a citizen to get this right).
This is horrible... And just like that, now the government can introduce laws based on people's identity/group.<p>Well at least it doesn't affect me personally... I didn't get the vaccine but I identify as a vaccinated person. Deep down, I feel that I'm vaccinated.
When the India variant is in more than 50 countries (and counting), and the variant roulette is on full speed in India. We desperately believe that the vaccine is better protection than an N95 mask! Utter nonsense! It's a matter of Biden showing he's doing something positive, but the vaccination is not something he can take credit for anyway. When you mix politics into healthcare, the result is often disastrous!
This is a bad idea and one that is going to backfire. The Indian variant of Covid is already spread out to over 44 countries, and although we don't have conclusive evidence yet, it is being suspected that the current crop of vaccines are not very effective againt this.<p>In the past one month alone, more than a 100 medics (who are all fully vaccinated), have died - albeit due to a different vaccine and higher viral load in their workplace.<p>It's a little premature to ask for masks to go off
Ask yourself, why now? I work at a vaccine center and they are all slowing down. For those who aren’t “hesitant” but maybe haven’t received their shot for lack of urgency (convenience issues/complacency), going to a store full of people not wearing their mask may make them feel less secure and will provide urgency to get their shots. Interesting strategy but as the unvaccinated anti-maskers stop wearing their masks in public (no one is going to check their vax card), you are going to see outbreaks and death. Let’s see if it works to get more people vaccinated.
It does feel a little soon, since there are still big unknown in terms of variants and how effective it is for people with weakened immune systems, and how long the effective protection lasts.<p>That said, I think what people miss is that CDC is not making recommendations for you not to catch Covid, it's making recommendations in the aggregate of what seems like acceptable risk for the pandemic. So that means some vaccinated might still get Covid, but most won't or will with minor symptoms that is not life threatening. In that regard they probably want to encourage people to go back and stimulate the economy.
I don't know if anywhere in the United States enforces mask wearing with some kind of law - but assuming they do, doesn't this severely complicate things? How do you tell quickly and easily if someone not wearing a mask is vaccinated or not?<p>Where I am, there is an app I can use to display my vaccine records - and I believe they are working on an even more 'convenient' version that shows something similar to a red or green QR code - but this has obvious downsides and potential future repercussions. Even with this, they are hesitant to say "It's ok to take your masks off in public now" as it'll be so difficult to enforce.
I'm not sure this is a good approach. I'm guessing part of this declaration is due to many American's approach with masks (they took my freedums!)<p>I'm not sure if there's enough data out there showing that vaccinated people cannot pass the virus to others. It's possible you can catch it and still pass it, I'm thinking.<p>For me, I'll continue wearing a mask in public.
I'm curious to how the math works... Basically they are willing to let covid explode among the unvaccinated which presumably won't impact those that can't get vaccinated (i.e. young kids < 16) and maybe that that number is smaller than what our hospitals can treat.<p>I'm also gonna guess that the people who have gotten vaccinated basically have always worn masks and the unvaccinated never have unless forced. That explains my town.
Okay dang, here's what I'm curious about. People walking around without a mask. How are they going to know who is vaccinated and who isn't? Say someone who isn't vaccinated is walking around without a mask. What is the officer's reasonable suspicion to stop them and ask for ID or ask for "papers?"<p>How will this be enforced? How are they going to stop all the non-vaccinated people from walking around without a mask?<p>Are they just wagging the dog with this because Fauci's in the hot seat?
I wish it was common and expected that those that want to go maskless, wear their vaccination cards around their necks. Not a requirement, but just having it be common enough that if you do, people will know what it means.<p>Here in San Francisco, more than 50% of people are fully vaccinated, but everyone is still wearing masks, even outdoors. I don't think it is just that SF hasn't changed the mandate, it is more about social pressure.<p>And I say that while at the same time, being proud to live in the big city that has done the best (i.e. least per capita deaths of any US large city), thanks to a culture of taking the pandemic seriously. But I'm ready to take advantage of being vaccinated, without people crossing the sidewalk to avoid me or otherwise getting looks.
Most of the problems happened coz governments world over believed the WHO who in turn were compromised by the CCP. Don't governments/people believe in "Trust but verify" anymore. Everyone parroted the same grey truths which CCP was feeding the world.<p>Also the election year was another factor in politicizing each and everything.
According to a large, controlled study in Wuhan [1], asymptomatic spreading is exceedingly rare. Zero cases in the study were identified.<p><a href="https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4695" rel="nofollow">https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4695</a>
Is living the healthiest life you can live not the best option in every circumstance?<p>It seems society as a whole wants a quick fix, no matter what the problem is or the consequences from a cure.
Vaccines still aren't 100%. This is bad advice from the CDC. It will only lead to anti-masker/vaxxers using this as an excuse for not wearing a mask. Even the fully vaccinated should be wearing a mask around other people. 94%/97% is not 100%.<p>edit: Japan is a good example for how masks have drastically reduced the number of infected due to mask culture. Japan has half the US population and still isn't vaccinating the general public. Even the spikes in Japan are tiny compared to the US due to mask usage. Japan is mostly open, trains are still packed, shops are still filled with people. Masks work and should still be worn once vaccinated.<p>edit 2: good luck.