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UK Rail services to come under unified state control

277 pointsby pwatsonwailesalmost 4 years ago

52 comments

OJFordalmost 4 years ago
Hurrah! Even as a free market conservative I&#x27;ve long been in favour of this: bidding for the multi-year contract to operate a line is a poor proxy for (impossible) proper competition where rail users could vote with their feet and wallets.<p>There&#x27;s effectively only one operator anyway, for a given journey, it should be the state, awarding the multi-year contract to the elected government is strictly better than to a private company where there&#x27;s little&#x2F;much more indirect incentive to do anything in the interest of the consumer.<p>You don&#x27;t travel with X from A to B because you think X is great value for money and provides a really top notch service; you do it because you need to get from A to B and X happens to be the operator.<p>However.. I&#x27;m pessimistic... I&#x27;m sure operators will push back on &#x27;under one brand&#x27;, and argue they need this that and the other in order to differentiate themselves and effectively compete...
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matsemannalmost 4 years ago
Norway&#x27;s railroad also went &quot;private&quot; a few years ago, and have butchered it up into (not all):<p>- we have a directorate of railway deciding where to build tracks, what providers must adhere to, their timetables etc<p>- one government owned company building - one government owned company building and maintaining the tracks<p>- one government owned company owning the trains<p>- another one maintaining the trains<p>- one government owned company responsible for all ticketing, purchasing, route search, providing timetables etc<p>- 3 different companies having won a bid for different routes. They have to lease the trains. But since they have monopoly on their route and the directorate decides everything, having multiple hasn&#x27;t really led to any competition. Sure, they fought somewhat on price for the bid, but for the next 10 years the only thing they really do is provide personnel for the trains.<p>Nothing here made train a better or more viable alternative for the people. Just 5x the amount of highly paid directors. And more overhead and less cooperation. In fact it&#x27;s now often more expensive to take train long distance, as you end up paying (price + price) from two companies instead of a single rebated long distance ticket.<p>One of the companies now driving in Norway is the not-very-popular British Go-Ahead, even.
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mvzvmalmost 4 years ago
Good. This is wildly overdue. The privatization of public infrastructure (ex: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Privatisation_of_British_Rail" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Privatisation_of_British_Rail</a>) was a crime of the highest corruption.<p>Edit: Link broke?<p>Edit 2: Thank you @bogdan <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
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steve_ghalmost 4 years ago
Note: I have spent the last 7 years working in consultancy, much of which has been involved with both Metro Rail (eg TfL) and Heavy Rail in the UK.<p>There are certainly some messy aspects to UK Rail, but the current system was not nearly as bad as made out by some posters , and there are some very good arguments against further centralisation.<p>A lot of the problem as I see it has been the misalignment between Network Rail (running the tracks) and the train operating companies (TOCs).<p>Firstly, NR is a huge and bloated bureaucracy - it is incredibly slow moving, and many of the problems (e.g. lack of modern rolling stock) can be directly traced back to problems with NR signing off on new rolling stock (they have to authorise each type of rolling stock to be run on each line).<p>Second, there are definite problems with timetabling - the TOCs are told the timetables they have to run. Unfortunately, the people who designed the timetables haven&#x27;t worked out that in some congested areas (eg the approaches to Waterloo station in London), there is no way on earth that the timetables and service frequency of movements in and out of the stations are actually going work.<p>Thirdly, NR&#x27;s investment in new systems has been very patchy. It is worth noting that the Welsh Government removed control of the Central Valley lines (serving the valleys North of Cardiff) from NR, and took direct control themselves, because they were sick of decades of underinvestment from NR, which generally takes a very London-centric approach.<p>Going forwards, I&#x27;m hopeful that we will see NR effectively split up into regional entities aligned with the TOC regions, so we can get much better alignment between infrastructure and rolling stock &#x2F; services in each region. This may also enable a more equitable distribution of funding for infrastructure, which would enable infrastructure and service improvements especially in the North.<p>Finally, commuter rail and long distance passenger volumes have grown vastly over the past 20 years, which is a good thing. What is needed is infrastructure investment (particularly in modern signalling systems - ETMS) to enable trains to run much more closely together, and enable a higher service density. However, I think it is unlikely that the government will be prepared to make this investment.
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cirrus-cloudsalmost 4 years ago
The flexible season tickets are welcome. However, missing from this news report is any mention of making the cost of rail travel more affordable for the public.<p>The report quotes the former boss of British Airways about &quot;<i>greater flexibility in the way that fares are operated in the future</i>&quot;<p>What does this mean? Can we expect less expensive tickets?<p>The UK already has some of the most expensive rail tickets in Europe. Yes, you can book in advance for cheaper tickets, but often there is limited availability, and you have to book at least a month or longer in advance. In short, the conditions which make cheaper tickets available are simply impractical for most passengers, especially regular commuters.<p>Here is a monthly season ticket comparison from 2017: UK vs Continental Europe:<p>- UK: Luton to London St. Pancras (35 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £387 (approx $547&#x2F;€448)<p>- UK: Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Piccadilly (32 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £292 (approx $412 &#x2F;€344)<p>- Germany: Dusseldorf to Cologne (28 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £85 (approx $120 &#x2F;€98)<p>- France: Mantes-la-Jolie to Paris (34 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £61 (approx $86 &#x2F;€71)<p>- Italy: Anzione to Rome (31 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £61 (approx $86 &#x2F;€71)<p>- Spain: Aranjuez to Madrid (31 miles) | Monthly season ticket cost: £75 (approx $106 &#x2F;€87)<p>Source: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tuc.org.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-commuters-spend-6-times-much-their-salary-rail-fares-other-european-passengers" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tuc.org.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-commuters-spend-6-times-much-...</a>
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beck5almost 4 years ago
Most will sympathise with public run railways (rightly or wrongly) so it is worth highlighting some positives from private companies running of the railways.<p>The private companies have pushed for a very large increase in the number of operating trains, with around a 50% increase in the past couple of decades, they are trying to squeeze every drop possible out if the tracks.<p>The train companies are also often making a loss on these routes, commonly subsidised by foreign Europeans governments looking to expand their rail business, Dutch or Italian tax payers should be annoyed at how their taxes are being wasted.<p>Profits are also capped so these are not potential cash cows people suspect. British tickets are expensive because the government doesn&#x27;t subsidise the ticket price, which is a separate debate.<p>The Public Vs private debate will continue until the end of time, the truth is there are benefits to both systems.<p>Disclaimer, my wife is senior in a rail franchise, as well as being left leaning, fwiw.
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carlsborgalmost 4 years ago
Fantastic. Train fares in the UK are prohibitively high. It is at times cheaper to fly via Spain than it is to travel to London from the North East by train, as this story demonstrates.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;metro.co.uk&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;27&#x2F;man-flies-from-newcastle-to-london-via-spain-because-its-cheaper-than-the-train-6737975&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;metro.co.uk&#x2F;2017&#x2F;06&#x2F;27&#x2F;man-flies-from-newcastle-to-l...</a>
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rich_sashaalmost 4 years ago
This sounds like many niceties, BUT the elephant in the room is the utterly uncompetitive way private contractors are chosen to run the routes, and as a result, high prices &#x2F; low quality of the actual journeys. Operators have a nice oligopoly on the routes, with barely any competition for tenders.<p>One example is that different routes have different hardware requirements. And guess what, the only provider who has the right kit available immediately is the one whose contract is just expiring. Please name your price and sign on the dotted line.
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maxehmookaualmost 4 years ago
The UK does not and cannot have a free market for train travel, so we should stop pretending that it&#x27;s possible.<p>Private companies have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted to run train services in the UK. Profit always came before passenger comfort, safety and value for money. I don&#x27;t believe that the state is better at everything, but in this case they&#x27;re going to be the least bad option!
gorgoileralmost 4 years ago
UK rail suffers from the service provider having zero accountability to the paying customer at the point of service. It’s the DMV on rails.<p>Obviously there are no competing train companies &#x2F; train tracks &#x2F; signalling systems. If you want to vote with your wallet you only have two ways of leveraging better service: demand compensation or stop using the trains altogether.<p>The problem with a nationalised rail system is... <i>it will also have zero accountability to the paying customers!</i><p>What would be really helpful would be to have an independent and powerful ombudsman who can crack down on sloppy service, and I’m pleased to see this given brief mention in The Guardian’s coverage. We shall see.
markb139almost 4 years ago
Sounds like it&#x27;s going to be similar to the local London trains. i.e private companies running the system with &quot;Transport for London&quot; branding.
peterburkimsheralmost 4 years ago
For anyone who appreciates 1980s British comedy, there&#x27;s a sketch by Ronnie Barker about the joys of British Rail.<p>&quot;I told BR to be off. Then they offered me £1000. I said I&#x27;m not a man who can be bought. Then they offered me £2000. Good evening.&quot;<p>&quot;We&#x27;re going to replace the existing fare structure, with a very unfair structure&quot;<p>&quot;British Rail intend to maintain our standards. But now for the good news!&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=zV2lmSDKvO8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=zV2lmSDKvO8</a>
dmjealmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s just blindingly obvious to me that some services absolutely have to come under some kind of longer term (and therefore state) control, and preferably away from the whims of political change.<p>You absolutely can&#x27;t build infrastructure, education, health in 4-year cycles. These are 10,20,50+ year projects. Personally I&#x27;d have these under control of something cross party, totally away from electioneering.
supernova87aalmost 4 years ago
I was always wondering how the experiment in British rail would write its next chapter.<p>The logic of privatization seemed odd to me: &quot;You have a choice now -- if you weren&#x27;t satisfied with the service you received on your trip to Manchester, you can go to Leeds instead!&quot;
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flargalmost 4 years ago
The elephant in the room is that UK rail is too complex to be managed in siloes and it should be renationalised for the national good and to save money.
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whazoralmost 4 years ago
Applause for the Transport Supremo for getting this done (for reference check Bed of Nails from Yes Minister).
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daverolalmost 4 years ago
Maybe this will remove the need for adjudicating between the companies currently involved - from the White Paper:<p>&quot;Previous adjudications include, among other things, who was responsible for a train being so crowded that a passenger fainted, causing delays while they were taken off; and whether a pheasant is a small bird (in which case, according to the principles at the time, the train operator was to blame for a delay caused by hitting one) or a large bird (Network Rail&#x27;s problem).&quot;
intsunnyalmost 4 years ago
The title seems heavily editorialized.<p>The Guardian&#x27;s &quot;UK railways to be simplified but still substantially privatised&quot; seems more accurate:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2021&#x2F;may&#x2F;19&#x2F;uk-rail-overhaul-privatised-great-british-railways-" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2021&#x2F;may&#x2F;19&#x2F;uk-rail-ove...</a>
dastxalmost 4 years ago
I could be mistaken but if I understand correctly, this is similar to how the TfL is run. If it is, this will be a huge boost and is a step in the right direction. TfL has its faults, but, in my experience, it is a thousand times better than anything the franchised train operators have been able to deliver.
jablalmost 4 years ago
What is actually changing here? The article says GBR will be responsible for ticketing, prices and schedules, which makes sense that you can buy a ticket for anywhere on the rail system regardless of which company happens to operate which line at whichever moment.<p>What I don&#x27; understand, is that the article says that the &#x27;government has ended rail franchising&#x27;, which AFAIU was the process where private companies bid to handle certain routes. Now this is to be replaced with &#x27;concessions&#x27;, which AFAIU is a bidding process where private companies bid to operate certain routes. What&#x27;s the difference?
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jonplackettalmost 4 years ago
There must be a better way to set up incentives.<p>Eg.<p>Company is chosen - they get a temporary monopoly on a route, for free instead of having to pitch a ridiculous low ball<p>But...<p>Every time a train is late, they pay £100,000<p>Every time a train is cancelled they pay £1,000,000<p>They pay £10 for every passenger complaint.<p>Etc etc
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apexalphaalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve found that these two YouTube video&#x27;s do an okay job explaining the actual &#x27;market forces&#x27; actually at play here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=njJ94o1B0qI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=njJ94o1B0qI</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DlTq8DbRs4k" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DlTq8DbRs4k</a><p>It takes a bit of understanding <i>why</i> regular market forces kind of can&#x27;t apply to a system like rail transport.
dash2almost 4 years ago
I suspect a key divide in reaction to this news is between those of us who are member British Rail and those of us who don’t. I do. It was like stabbing yourself with broken glass.
DrBazzaalmost 4 years ago
Lots of comments about how this is a good thing, but if private companies are still running the trains, and fares are set centrally, how are they expected to make a profit?<p>Reduce the staff, or reduce the staff salaries. Either way, unions get involved and there will be strikes just like the &quot;good old days&quot;. More retail in and around stations perhaps?<p>I look forward to being able to just a buy a single ticket from X to Y and one that perhaps doesn&#x27;t cost 5-10 times as much as it would to drive.
elricalmost 4 years ago
This is an interesting shift. When I lived in the UK, I was rather fond of how well public transport worked - in general, and trains specifically. In my native Belgium, on the other hand, it&#x27;s all basically shit. While Belgium is slowly pushing for <i>less</i> state control in public transport (allegedly on account of EU competition rules), the UK is now changing direction.<p>Can anyone summarize the background of this decision? Has there been passenger backlash against the current system?
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Tsiklonalmost 4 years ago
I hope this decision leads to better value railway journeys for regular people.<p>I love taking the train places, for me when I’m going on holiday the journey is part of it, I find rail travel to be low stress and relaxing. The trip from St Pancras to Amsterdam (4hours) was very calm.<p>I hope that one outcome of this change is that other people rediscover leisure travel by rail.<p>That said the anorak in me will miss all the different liveries for each of the companies
sir-alienalmost 4 years ago
If you want to see a good train service look at Japan. Went there for a holiday and used the train service all over. They are a classic example of what a train service &quot;should&quot; be like.<p>Fast, efficient, cost-effective. The only time trains was a little difficult was in the super-peak hours on the underground in the very dense parts of the cities.<p>I think the world should learn from Japan in many aspects.
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michaeltalmost 4 years ago
The UK&#x27;s rail &quot;privatisation&quot; has always been bizarre, for practical reasons.<p>* Because rail is vital national infrastructure, important to keeping congestion down, and needs to be accessible even to poor people, every train operator receives government subsidies.<p>* So travellers can buy tickets for a complex four-train itinerary and large stations can have multiple operators sharing platforms, much of the ticketing system (including the main types of ticket on offer) is centrally controlled.<p>* Because it would be nigh-impossible to have multiple companies trains with different prices (or different on-time performance) operating on the same route, each route is essentially a monopoly †.<p>* To prevent price-gouging of commuters on monopoly services, the rate of increase of ticket prices is capped by government. (And yet despite the subsidies and price caps, some train tickets remain absurdly expensive)<p>* It would be absurd for a company losing a rail franchise to get stuck with a bunch of trains they no longer need, or a bunch of employees in the wrong part of the country they have to fire. So when a rail franchise changes hands, the trains, drivers, stations, and station staff move with it.<p>* Any long-term investments in things like new trains won&#x27;t pay off in the duration of a single rail franchise - so they have to be agreed with the government upfront.<p>* Rail workers are represented by powerful unions, and industrial disputes tank the train operators&#x27; performance numbers, so operators can&#x27;t control their staffing costs - they can only wait out a long industrial dispute with government backing.<p>* To prevent rural communities losing their rail service (or having it reduced to unusable levels) the government tells the franchisee where the trains must stop, and how often.<p>* Because tracks and signals all have to be maintained to the same national standards, and often multiple trains will use the same tracks, the train operators don&#x27;t own the tracks or signalling equipment. So they can&#x27;t upgrade track for automation or to run more&#x2F;faster&#x2F;more reliable services.<p>* Because re-tendering a franchise is very time-consuming, train operators who under-perform are seldom replaced or punished (except by making less money than they hoped they would)<p>All of this means the train operators are boxed in on every side - Can&#x27;t run more trains, can&#x27;t run fewer trains, can&#x27;t raise prices, can&#x27;t change pricing models, can&#x27;t embrace tech like driverless trains, can&#x27;t cut staff. Their only powers seem to be choosing the train&#x27;s colour scheme, taking the blame for poor performance, and giving some bigwig a fat salary.<p>Given that the trains have always been de-facto under state control, making that true de-jure makes sense.<p>† Except for one or two services like london-to-birmingham, and competition from cars and teleworking.
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nasmornalmost 4 years ago
8000 pounds for a 50min train ride season ticket is absolutely insane. Are the trains fancy like the orient express?
spepsalmost 4 years ago
Another point of view: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2021&#x2F;may&#x2F;19&#x2F;uk-rail-overhaul-privatised-great-british-railways-" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;business&#x2F;2021&#x2F;may&#x2F;19&#x2F;uk-rail-ove...</a>
dangerboystevealmost 4 years ago
the people on the Wendover YouTube channel did a video on this back in March which explained the issue really well.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DlTq8DbRs4k" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=DlTq8DbRs4k</a>
JoeAltmaieralmost 4 years ago
A tried and true management system: To appear effective, centralize things that are distributed, and distribute things that are centralized. You can claim benefits either way. And in a few years, put it all back again and claim more benefits.
aleccoalmost 4 years ago
I know this one. Privatize and pocket money. Mismanagement with both unions and suppliers lining their pockets for a while. Then bailouts and&#x2F;or expropriation and the bill goes to the taxpayer, again. Rinse, repeat.
0898almost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s not impossible that one day our rail network could stand shoulder to shoulder with GOV.UK and the NHS – which I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s too hyperbolic to suggest are both the envy of the world.
Neil44almost 4 years ago
This is very strange. The BBC article has gone 404 and there’s nothing on the guardian or daily mail. But I also heard this discussed on radio 4 earlier. Odd. 8:04am.
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chillydawgalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;m looking forward to seeing the new GBR company privatised in 20 years, making a small group of people a very large amount of money. Again.
saosalmost 4 years ago
Still loads of smoke. I want to see the fare prices. If they’re flexible and affordable then maybe I can move out of London!!
babyalmost 4 years ago
France went private more than a decade ago. It made no sense to me at the time, I’m wondering what’s the post mortem on that.
ciesalmost 4 years ago
And so the privatization experiment come to an end. Bye bye Thatcherism. I hope this silly belief in the cure-all of &quot;small govt&quot; will die with it.<p>Sure govt&#x27;s should not supply all food, or luxury good, or ... But public transport, schools, hospitals, ...<p>I think we should make a good set of rules by which we can decide which typed of biz should be in private hands, and what we prefer public.<p>The Fed, Blackwater, prisons, rail, hospitals, banks... What could possibly go wrong?
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bsd44almost 4 years ago
Yes please! It&#x27;s long overdue! The state of current rail services cannot possibly be any worse!
DanBCalmost 4 years ago
I want to know how much money will be spent painting <i>fucking</i> Union Jacks on all the trains.
jpswadealmost 4 years ago
This is fantastic news.
ourmandavealmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;m reading all the comments here in my head with a proper British accent.
bogdanalmost 4 years ago
Working link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
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heuriskoalmost 4 years ago
The link is now 404, new link: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
cyberveganalmost 4 years ago
OP&#x27;s URL doesn&#x27;t work for me, but the article is here:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
Jolteralmost 4 years ago
Moved to url: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
petewailesalmost 4 years ago
They changed the URL after I posted it. Can someone update it?
jp0dalmost 4 years ago
This is a working link.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;business-57176858</a>
danjacalmost 4 years ago
Page 404s. A bit like a British rail scheduled service.
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edf13almost 4 years ago
Page not found??
onethoughtalmost 4 years ago
Love to be proved wrong. But public transport&#x27;s goal never was to turn a profit. It&#x27;s a public good, and should be measured by its &quot;public good&quot;ness.<p>Extracting profit feels like something that disproportionately targets the poor&#x2F;working class and leads to either an exploited workforce and worse service... without a reduction in overall costs.<p>Now this trend of a &quot;Nationalised Brand&quot; over a &quot;privatised service&quot; just feels like insult to injury...<p>Can capitalism hurry up and eat itself so we can try something else...
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