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How did Replit respond to this blog post?

300 pointsby mindBalmost 4 years ago

33 comments

escotalmost 4 years ago
I understand the feeling of being taken advantage of, but this seemed clearly like an over-reaction. A 100% apology was in order from my (sideline) opinion. He&#x27;s just an ex intern having some fun, probably trying to impress his former boss even.<p>I was reading through the replit blog to see what kind of things are trade secret vs public, and noticed that they didn&#x27;t go out of their way to highlight that Bret Victor&#x27;s &quot;Learnable Programming&quot; is clearly the complete inspiration for replit&#x27;s debugger (time travel, no hidden state, etc). They have a small link to Bret&#x27;s work but don&#x27;t mention him by name. Considering Bret&#x27;s article is basically THE piece to read w.r.t. programming environments, and the gif that replit shows looks pretty identical, it seems right to have his name&#x2F;article clearly at the top.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.replit.com&#x2F;debuggest" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.replit.com&#x2F;debuggest</a><p><a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;worrydream.com&#x2F;LearnableProgramming&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;worrydream.com&#x2F;LearnableProgramming&#x2F;</a>
dev_by_dayalmost 4 years ago
The parting jab in the closing email is classic:<p>&quot;you said &#x27;I will not be copying more stuff&#x27; &quot; (OP didn&#x27;t say that and given their current stance of not copying anything, I doubt they would admit that)<p>&quot;Arrive at new ways of doing things -- make new mistakes&quot;<p>Egotistical people always try to get the last word in. Even when apologizing.
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2bitencryptionalmost 4 years ago
The craziest part, to me, is how the CEO could have expressed his view in a way that would have been much more compelling.<p>&quot;Hey, really cool project. Though honestly, not sure how I feel about a former intern of mine publishing a project that is so similar to what they worked on as an intern. But on that note, we&#x27;d be happy to have you back on the team if you want to continue the project with us :) What do you say?&quot;<p>or something along those lines. I still wouldn&#x27;t agree with him, but at least I&#x27;d sympathize.<p>instead he went full-on attack mode, lawyers and all. sheesh. talk about tone deaf.
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ctvoalmost 4 years ago
Every time there&#x27;s a thread on this I want to bring up the fact that Amjad still has not listed what this open source project stole. You cannot go around accusing someone trying to start their career (this intern) of IP theft and not present evidence. Release a statement clearly stating NOTHING was stolen or release evidence.<p>We have the public commit history of the project. Feel free to go through each commit and point out what was stolen from you.
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holmanalmost 4 years ago
His HN response is pretty baffling to read. Saying he&#x27;s &quot;no longer the struggling kid from Jordan&quot; who now needs to &quot;be kind and model better behavior&quot; is oddly focused on him, but it also kind of points to... people from Jordan are incapable of being kind?<p>The whole approach he took here is just very poorly thought out.
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bluefoxalmost 4 years ago
IANAL, but if Radon is reading this: in such situations, don&#x27;t discuss things over the phone like the other guy proposed (you can see it was a mistake, with him &quot;quoting&quot; stuff you may not have said or that were taken out of context), only in writing.
borskialmost 4 years ago
The problem here is the unreasonable reaction off the bat. Look, I’ve faced issues like this before - I’ve even done dumber things in response, in my past.<p>But, and this is important, just stop. For five minutes. When something upsets you, and you JUST WANT TO SEND THIS EMAIL - don’t. Wait five minutes. Take a walk. Tell someone else about the issue.<p>Then, and only then, after you’ve not thought about the email for a bit, erase it and write it from scratch.<p>It helps. It’s therapeutic. You don’t end up with your emails screenshotted and posted to the top of HN for two days in a row.<p>Assume the best intentions. I find far fewer people are looking to take advantage of you than are simply looking to be liked.
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artembugaraalmost 4 years ago
&quot;I give you permission to publish Riju&quot;.<p>Emm. Really? Since when does he hold such a power?
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mellosoulsalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;m in the minority (I think?) of people who felt that while there was an overreaction from Replit, there was some merit in their original complaint.<p>I think that the situation has escalated though partly due to the approach of the former intern here, who - while rightly calling out the non-apology aspects of the apology is aggressive themselves now that the power is with them courtesy of the public exposure and general backing of HN.<p>The blogpost here drilling down into every perceived slight and human failing lacks grace and magnanimity and doesn&#x27;t seem much better at handling the favourable side of the power balance than Replit did in the original correspondence.<p>Maybe time to move on.
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Keyframealmost 4 years ago
&quot;I apologize, but not really. I am still right, you&#x27;re not.&quot; This only happened because of the public eye. Immature apology is reflected in evocation of a sob story about a (presumably struggling?) kid rising from whatever - that&#x27;s manipulation, an excuse. Guy didn&#x27;t learn anything but at least there&#x27;s a close.
ggooalmost 4 years ago
Not a real apology when it only happens because of public pressure, this is just saving face. And not a very good attempt at that.
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yepthatsrealityalmost 4 years ago
Was this removed from the front page because Replit has taken money from Ycombinator?<p>EDIT:<p>Just to clarify. This post has gained over 200 points and 70 comments on the last hour. It jumped from top 5 posts to low end of the top 50 posts in seconds and is rapidly sinking. Just curious what decision led to the hiding of a popular post.
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MikeDeltaalmost 4 years ago
Yeah, seen this before: people apologising not because they suddenly care about what they did to their victims, but because they care about what the world thinks about them.<p>Edit: not responding to guilt but to shame.
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dangalmost 4 years ago
This is a follow-up to the huge thread from yesterday:<p><i>Replit used legal threats to kill my open-source project</i> - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27424195" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27424195</a> - June 2021 (1234 comments)<p>(Edit: I&#x27;m adding some text here because people have been linking to this comment.)<p>This story was at #1 all day yesterday, in contradiction to HN&#x27;s normal rules. That is, we bent over backwards to <i>allow</i> this story to have much more attention on HN than it would have gotten in a normal case. That&#x27;s why it got 4000 upvotes and 1300+ comments and was the #1 story the entire day (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;front?day=2021-06-07" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;front?day=2021-06-07</a>).<p>Why did we do that? Because we moderate HN less, not more, when YC or a YC startup is the story: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;query=by%3Adang%20moderate%20less%20%22not%20more%22%20yc&amp;sort=byDate&amp;type=comment" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;qu...</a>. That is literally the first principle of HN moderation, and we stick to it strictly.<p><i>Less</i> moderation does not mean <i>no</i> moderation, however. It does not serve the community, or the quality of HN, to repeat the same thing all over again the next day. Not having the same story repeat itself two days in a row is standard HN moderation.<p>Downweighting follow-ups in order to avoid repetition, is a bedrock principle of HN; otherwise the front page would be dominated by the same few stories every day. There are lots of past explanations about that at these links:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=true&amp;sort=byDate&amp;type=comment&amp;query=follow-up%20by%3Adang" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=true&amp;sor...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;sort=byDate&amp;type=comment&amp;query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;hn.algolia.com&#x2F;?dateRange=all&amp;page=0&amp;prefix=false&amp;so...</a><p>We bent the rules considerably to allow the story to keep a prominent position it would not otherwise have had, for an entire day. I don&#x27;t think it would be proper to do the same thing two days in a row, and indeed many users were emailing us to complain, when they thought that was about to happen.
kemonocodealmost 4 years ago
A very empty non-apology all in all, and not nearly addressing what Masad did wrong. Very disappointing.<p>Masad, if you&#x27;re reading this, get off your high horse. Bullying and scaring people into compliance with lawyers does work, but you pay it dearly in PR, <i>especially</i> when you&#x27;re working on products oriented towards highly opinionated people.
diogenesjunioralmost 4 years ago
Amjad seems to be apologizing because he fears what others think about him.
jaredcwhitealmost 4 years ago
Glad to see this outcome. However, too little too late for me. I&#x27;ll look beyond Replit for ways to author and share runnable code in the cloud…non-VC-funded and open source extremely preferred.
reducesufferingalmost 4 years ago
All people make mistakes and need to learn to introspect and learn from their mistakes to not make the same ones.<p>Really, this was a great opportunity to acknowledge and learn from aggressive mistakes while still running just a series A company. It was a blessing to the CEO to be highlighted now before the real weighty damage occurs. Unfortunately, it&#x27;s pretty apparent to most of us and future investors that his public persona will get eviscerated if his company proceeds to ever become more in the public spotlight.
temp8964almost 4 years ago
Wow, not enough apology from the guy. The apology is not sincere. That guy is flawed. All the perfects are judging a flawed guy. Man, this is a strange world we are living in.
eh8almost 4 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Streisand_effect" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Streisand_effect</a>
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darkhorse13almost 4 years ago
The ego and hubris in all of this is absolutely insane. Replit is a cool product no doubt, but my God, people need to take themselves less seriously. I seriously put some of the blame on the culture here. If we keep on acting like these companies and founders are God&#x27;s gift to mankind, we will continue to see this type of egotistical, narrow-minded behavior.
madsmithalmost 4 years ago
Wow… someone just nuked this right off of the front page.
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qwertoxalmost 4 years ago
I hereby grant you premission...
theiafanalmost 4 years ago
Given that Amjad seems particularly worried about people encroaching in this space, let me again say that nothing about Replit is unique, the use of Nix for Replit is literally an idea years past its prime. Nothing remotely unique.<p>Amjad, if your securing your moat via threats, you better look out.<p>To anyone else, go grab Theia. In about an hour you can get something better than Replit going, and if you combine with Nix&#x2F;Guix, there&#x27;s just no reason to deal with people that behave like Amjad.
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brhsagainalmost 4 years ago
For those calling Amjad&#x27;s apology insincere: what would convince you otherwise? He&#x27;s stated plainly that he did x, x was wrong, and he&#x27;s sorry for doing x (x being making legal threats and abusing his power). Do you need him to concede his entire point of view 100%? If Riju really did copy repl.it, are you saying he should let that go in order to make a proper apology? Why is that a reasonable demand?<p>I think I see one part of the problem, though. Many people implicitly believe the claim about Riju copying repl.it is itself ridiculous. So I want to talk about this.<p>It&#x27;s famously said that execution is worth more than ideas. Meaning a large part of a company&#x27;s value is in its acquired knowledge from iterating on designs and the paths they landed on. Imagine everyone who sets out to create an online code runner starts at the same point in the online-code-runner problem space. Every decision you make is uncharted territory, and every choice, small UI changes, how you serialize messages, how you orchestrate containers, has consequences.<p>When you take the result of those learnings -- a very specific design path -- and copy it, it can seem like you were just doing the obvious thing, <i>precisely because</i> the first company carved that path first. It seems like nothing, and you&#x27;ll never enforce it in law. But what you&#x27;re doing is basically pirating the encoded knowledge from all those iterations and trial-and-error cycles; instead of starting from the initial point in the problem space and independently reasoning at each point what direction to &quot;step&quot; in, you teleport right to the same spot as the company, getting for free any progress they&#x27;ve made.<p>Saying there are a bunch of repl.it clones, etc. misses the point. The &quot;online code runner&quot; idea is cheap. That&#x27;s not what Amjad is saying. It&#x27;s not even about individually patentable trade secrets. It&#x27;s more like, we&#x27;ve been iterating in this problem space for a long time, an intern comes in, sees the path we took, leaves and releases something that takes largely the same path, then tries to claim the path is just &quot;the obvious route.&quot; But anyone who&#x27;s worked on a long, hard problem knows that&#x27;s not how it works. A million micro design decisions go into eventually arriving at the path you take. It&#x27;s all the more suspicious if they made all the same micro-mistakes you did (as Amjad claims). What are the odds they started at the initial point, independently reasoned through each sub-decision, and made the same &quot;steps&quot; in the problem space you did, mistakes intact?<p>It may not be legally enforceable, but I think it&#x27;s very morally shady.<p>I&#x27;m not saying Riju <i>did</i> copy repl.it, by the way, just that it&#x27;s not a completely crazy accusation. And I don&#x27;t think Radon&#x27;s blog post definitively proves he didn&#x27;t. It goes through his tech stack in a very accounting-like, line-by-line breakdown. But it doesn&#x27;t address my point above, the point I think (can&#x27;t speak for him) Amjad was trying to make.<p>So if Amjad saying &quot;I still think you crossed a line ethically, but I apologize for reacting by making legal threats and abusing power&quot; -- which is, actually, the entire thing he did wrong -- strikes you as insincere, what&#x27;s the right way for him to assert his own moral grievance here before this whole matter wraps up?
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rasikjainalmost 4 years ago
Masad response does not seem to have the tone of apology. He is apologizing to the legal threat only. He is still not ready to accept about open source Project.<p>Good that Radon has responded well to that criticism and made communication transparent in his blog.<p>Setting the wrong tone from the position of CEO.
hashbigalmost 4 years ago
From the wording of this “apology” it’s clear that this is just meant to save face and damage control. I don’t think he would’ve reached out had the author not published the first blog post.<p>“Virtue is what you do when nobody is looking. The rest is marketing”. – Nassim Taleb
rexreedalmost 4 years ago
This interaction is why I don&#x27;t do things that involve legal matters via phone. there needs to be a paper trail for all correspondence to avoid he-said&#x2F;she-said situations.
toomanyducksalmost 4 years ago
Honestly, this is about what I expected. I have the admittedly niche and somewhat impractical opinion that it&#x27;s within no one&#x27;s rights to have ownership over an idea, an implementation, or a solution to any problem <i>at all</i>. When businesses try to base themselves off of that type of ownership, of <i>course</i> they&#x27;ll be threatened by someone putting together a small side project for the fun of it. Ideas aren&#x27;t something you can totally own: someone else will come up with them simultaneously, make a derivative work, or just have fun with it in a way you can&#x27;t physically stop. I think I&#x27;m seeing that play out as a business in a bad position and a person trying their best here. I mostly just feel bad for the OP and a bit irritated at capitalism, as always.
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technicolorwhatalmost 4 years ago
If the author is here, could we get the code, I would like to hack on a not-clone of replit :)
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dvfjsdhgfvalmost 4 years ago
Still better story than SCO vs IBM.
cbsmithalmost 4 years ago
I think the disappointment in the CEO&#x27;s response to the blog post is understandable, but I think much of it is a reflection of different contexts.<p>I&#x27;m sure from the information at their disposal, the CEO thinks their IP was stolen, and feels obligated to defend it vigorously. Yes, he did not provide specific claims, but often it considered unwise to be specific in these situations (both when threatening legal action and when backing down). What&#x27;s described as &quot;misquoting&quot; could be deliberate, but given how all of this seems to be in the context of two parties not communicating effectively, it is far more likely a case where what was heard from the CEO&#x27;s context was very different from what Radon intended to communicate.<p>Like I said, I don&#x27;t begrudge Radon&#x27;s feelings and perceptions of the situation, and he may well be perceiving things accurately, but with disagreements like this, the norm is that all parties have a distorted perception. I&#x27;m just glad it has been resolved without going to court.
bitwizealmost 4 years ago
I fail to see how Amjad was in the wrong in the first place. He is well within his rights to assert copyright, which OP probably violated at least on an SSO level. The only things left to quibble over are how much the infringement was and how it may have affected, or have the potential to affect, Repl.it&#x27;s business -- matters to be settled in court if both sides do not agree to terms.<p>Never, ever, EVER release an open-source version of your current or former employer&#x27;s product. If you do, the employer can establish you had access to their code and they can argue that your work is substantially similar to theirs, meaning THEY CAN AND WILL SUE YOU for copyright infringement.