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Mathematicians welcome computer-assisted proof in ‘grand unification’ theory

344 pointsby Wxc2jjJmST9XWWLalmost 4 years ago

19 comments

lvhalmost 4 years ago
I recommend the following post, by the author of the proof, for deeper context. Especially near the end, they talk about some of the things they&#x27;re trying to accomplish with it in plain(ish) English.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;05&#x2F;liquid-tensor-experiment&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;05&#x2F;liquid-tensor-e...</a>
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sabujpalmost 4 years ago
<p><pre><code> &quot;Proof assistants can’t read a maths textbook, they need continuous input from humans, and they can’t decide whether a mathematical statement is interesting or profound — only whether it is correct, Buzzard says. Still, computers might soon be able to point out consequences of the known facts that mathematicians had failed to notice, he adds.&quot; </code></pre> we&#x27;re closer to this than people realize
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Tainnoralmost 4 years ago
This is going to be an exciting area.<p>I spent some time previously playing with Coq. It&#x27;s very powerful, but even proving the simplest undergraduate maths statements (say, about group theory) can prove very challenging. I believe that part of this is that Coq uses different mathematical foundations than traditional mathematics, which mostly uses set theory (ZFC, although most people don&#x27;t care about the specifics). So it can be hard or unnatural to express something like &quot;subgroup&quot;. I don&#x27;t know if Lean fares better in that respect. Coq documentation is also IMHO almost impossible to understand unless you&#x27;re already very deeply knowledgeable about the system.<p>We will probably still need some more iterations, to get more user friendly assistants with better documentation and to get adequate teaching resources etc.
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qntmfredalmost 4 years ago
A quick intro from quanta magazine to Kevin Buzzard&#x27;s work on computer-assisted proof systems<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HL7DEkXV_60&amp;t=295s" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HL7DEkXV_60&amp;t=295s</a>
contrarian_5almost 4 years ago
i love the time that we live in. people talk about there being a glut of podcasts, but i can type &quot;Peter Scholze&quot; into youtube and there is a full hour-long interview with him hosted by another mathematician. you can see her channel is very new and almost certainly a part of this latest wave of pandemic podcasters. its so great to take an interest in a random person from a nature article and be able to immediately get a visceral idea of who he is and what hes about.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HYZ3reRcVi8" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=HYZ3reRcVi8</a>
gigatexalalmost 4 years ago
For anyone frustrated that the article doesn’t say what specific part of math has the most to gain it’s here:<p>“ The crucial point of condensed mathematics, according to Scholze and Clausen, is to redefine the concept of topology, one of the cornerstones of modern maths. A lot of the objects that mathematicians study have a topology — a type of structure that determines which of the object’s parts are close together and which aren’t. Topology provides a notion of shape, but one that is more malleable than those of familiar, school-level geometry: in topology, any transformation that does not tear an object apart is admissible. For example, any triangle is topologically equivalent to any other triangle — or even to a circle — but not to a straight line.<p>Topology plays a crucial part not only in geometry, but also in functional analysis, the study of functions. Functions typically ‘live’ in spaces with an infinite number of dimensions (such as wavefunctions, which are foundational to quantum mechanics). It is also important for number systems called p-adic numbers, which have an exotic, ‘fractal’ topology.”
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fjfaasealmost 4 years ago
For more details about the actual proof, see: &#x27;Blueprint for the Liquid Tensor Experiment&#x27;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;leanprover-community.github.io&#x2F;liquid&#x2F;index.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;leanprover-community.github.io&#x2F;liquid&#x2F;index.html</a>
bpcpdxalmost 4 years ago
This kinda gives me chills because I can&#x27;t help but think of Warhammer 40k.<p>Essentially our civilization progressed to the point where computers started to take more of a role in new discoveries much like in the real world. As computers got more powerfull and AI developed naturally scientific advancement sped up. But there came a point when the science and math became too advanced for humans to even comprehend, so computers did it. Then there came a point when things were so advanced that even scientists couldn&#x27;t even ask the right questions so an AI intermediate would have to be used.<p>Then things get weird and you have the 40k universe.<p>Anyways I know I probably butchered it a little but that&#x27;s the gist of it and I can totally see things progressing in the real world up to the point where things get weird in 40k.
Barrin92almost 4 years ago
The abiltiy to automate proofs creates some interesting questions about the nature of mathematics. The article remined me of Erdos saying that you &quot;don&#x27;t need to believe in God, but you do need to believe in the book&quot;, &#x27;the book&#x27; here being an imagined collection of mathematical proofs that are so simple, clear and beautiful that they immedieately stand out to any mathematician.<p>I don&#x27;t mind proof assistants as a way to gain new insights into mathematics, but I worry that maths is drifting into a direction where it turns more into hermeneutics than actual mathematics. The automation of proofs isn&#x27;t the only thing, I also was very scpetical about the whole process of Shinichi Mochizuki&#x27;s proof of the abc conjecture.
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runeksalmost 4 years ago
&gt; But systems known as proof assistants go deeper. The user enters statements into the system to teach it the definition of a mathematical concept — an object — based on simpler objects that the machine already knows about. A statement can also just refer to known objects, and the proof assistant will answer whether the fact is ‘obviously’ true or false based on its current knowledge.<p>As far as I can see this is just programming. How is this different from writing in Java<p><pre><code> int i = “hello” </code></pre> and seeing that the Java compiler rejects this “thesis”?<p>Of course, we need more complex types than “int” and “String”, but in principle it’s the same.
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denialalmost 4 years ago
Does anyone know how condensed mathematics would fit into the modern theory of PDEs (which is heavily based on functional analysis)? Perhaps it&#x27;s a relic of the sort of math Scholze works on, but it looks far too abstract to provide an impetus for people in those fields to embrace it. Topology, on the other hand, is relatively easy to define and work with (though there are some quirks with dual spaces of continuous linear functionals I&#x27;ve seen aesthetic objections to). Or does it &quot;contain&quot; topology in some sense, allowing people to continue working with notions of convergence obtained from norms?
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xvilkaalmost 4 years ago
Interesting choice of the proof assistant though - some specific parts of the Lean&#x27;s core are not completely decidable, moreover the upcoming Lean 4 version is incompatible with many libraries and proofs written for Lean 3. See also the discussion[1] if the Coq is suitable for number theory as quotients are ubiquitous here.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;coq&#x2F;coq&#x2F;issues&#x2F;10871" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;github.com&#x2F;coq&#x2F;coq&#x2F;issues&#x2F;10871</a>
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AtlasBarfedalmost 4 years ago
The Lean version of the theorem was 10,000s lines of code...<p>With verifiers like this as a useful tool, I&#x27;m guessing in the coming years this LoC will be dwarfed.<p>I&#x27;m a bit surprised a theorem of major complexity reduced to that small a LoC count.
FabHKalmost 4 years ago
TIL: Fields medallists ask questions on MathOverflow... [1]<p>This has me in awe about the depth of mathematics, the pace of progress, the miracle of specialisation. I have a degree in an applied-math-y adjacent field, and understand nothing. (And, btw, I was astonished how knowledgable some commenters right here were, and then realised that we have the (co-)authors of the results themselves here! gotta love HN.)<p>With that said, here some (non-mathematical) snippets I found interesting (apart from the great word &quot;sheafification&quot;):<p>&gt; Why do I want a formalization?<p>&gt; — I spent much of 2019 obsessed with the proof of this theorem, almost getting crazy over it. In the end, we were able to get an argument pinned down on paper, but I think nobody else has dared to look at the details of this, and so I still have some small lingering doubts.<p>&gt; — while I was very happy to see many study groups on condensed mathematics throughout the world, to my knowledge all of them have stopped short of this proof. (Yes, this proof is not much fun…)<p>&gt; — I have occasionally been able to be very persuasive even with wrong arguments. (Fun fact: In the selection exams for the international math olympiad, twice I got full points for a wrong solution. Later, I once had a full proof of the weight-monodromy conjecture that passed the judgment of some top mathematicians, but then it turned out to contain a fatal mistake.)<p>&gt; — I think this may be my most important theorem to date. (It does not really have any applications so far, but I’m sure this will change.) Better be sure it’s correct…<p>&gt; In the end, one formulates Theorem 9.5 which can be proved by induction; it is a statement of the form ∀∃∀∃∀∃ (\forall \exists \forall \exists \forall \exists), and there’s no messing around with the order of the quantifiers. It may well be the most logically involved statement I have ever proved.<p>&gt; Peter Scholze, 5th December 2020 [2]<p>Question: What did you learn about the process of formalization?<p>Answer: I learnt that it can now be possible to take a research paper and just start to explain lemma after lemma to a proof assistant, until you’ve formalized it all! I think this is a landmark achievement.<p>Question: And about the details of it?<p>Answer: You know this old joke where a professor gets asked whether some step really is obvious, and then he sits down for half an hour, after which he says “Yes, it is obvious”. It turns out that computers can be like that, too! Sometimes the computer asks you to prove that A=B, and the argument is “That’s obvious — it’s true by definition of A and B.” And then the computer works for quite some time until it confirms. I found that really surprising.<p>Question: Was the proof in [Analytic][4] found to be correct?<p>Answer: Yes, up to some usual slight imprecisions.<p>Question: Were any of these imprecisions severe enough to get you worried about the veracity of the argument?<p>Answer: One day I was sweating a little bit. Basically, the proof uses a variant of “exactness of complexes” that is on the one hand more precise as it involves a quantitative control of norms of elements, and on the other hand weaker as it is only some kind of pro-exactness of a pro-complex. It was implicitly used that this variant notion behaves sufficiently well, and in particular that many well-known results about exact complexes adapt to this context. There was one subtlety related to quotient norms — that the infimum need not be a minimum (this would likely have been overlooked in an informal verification) — that was causing some unexpected headaches. But the issues were quickly resolved, and required only very minor changes to the argument. Still, this was precisely the kind of oversight I was worried about when I asked for the formal verification.<p>Question: Were there any other issues?<p>Answer: There was another issue with the third hypothesis in Lemma 9.6 (and some imprecision around Proposition 8.17); it could quickly be corrected, but again was the kind of thing I was worried about. The proof walks a fine line, so if some argument needs constants that are quite a bit different from what I claimed, it might have collapsed.<p>Question: Interesting! What else did you learn?<p>Answer: What actually makes the proof work! When I wrote the blog post half a year ago, I did not understand why the argument worked, and why we had to move from the reals to a certain ring of arithmetic Laurent series. [...]<p>Question: So, besides the authors of course, who understands the proof now?<p>Answer: I guess the computer does, as does Johan Commelin. [Note: = deadbeef57 here on HN][3]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mathoverflow.net&#x2F;questions&#x2F;386796&#x2F;nonconvexity-and-discretization" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;mathoverflow.net&#x2F;questions&#x2F;386796&#x2F;nonconvexity-and-d...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;05&#x2F;liquid-tensor-experiment&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;05&#x2F;liquid-tensor-e...</a><p>[3] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;05&#x2F;half-a-year-of-the-liquid-tensor-experiment-amazing-developments&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;xenaproject.wordpress.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;06&#x2F;05&#x2F;half-a-year-of-...</a><p>[4] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.math.uni-bonn.de&#x2F;people&#x2F;scholze&#x2F;Analytic.pdf" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.math.uni-bonn.de&#x2F;people&#x2F;scholze&#x2F;Analytic.pdf</a>
estalmost 4 years ago
is there a simpler version of LEAN suitable for high school student level math? Sympy?
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mjreacheralmost 4 years ago
Is there any opportunity for interested undergrads to learn about this more (since I doubt we could contribute)?
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ajarmstalmost 4 years ago
The article is interesting, but that lede is incoherent. Many mathematicians accept computer proofs the way chess grand masters accept computer players. Computer “assistants” that generate proofs that humans cannot follow or understand will always be controversial, and the proofs they generate, even though accepted as valid, will always be decorated with an asterisk.
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SneakyTornado29almost 4 years ago
Last time someone talked about automating proofs, a whole new field was invented (computer science)
hansoralmost 4 years ago
They did the same with Prolog in 70&quot; and... failed. Nothing new.