From the source:
"The high rate of magnesium deficiency now postulated [5,6,7,8] can be attributed in part to a steady decline in general magnesium content in cultivated fruits and vegetables, a reflection of the observed depletion of magnesium in soil over the past 100 years [11,12,13]. A report to Congress was already sounding the alarm as far back as the 1930s, pointing out the paucity of magnesium, and other minerals, in certain produce [14]."<p>The easiest of those references to link to is <a href="https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1/article-p15.xml" rel="nofollow">https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/44/1...</a> :<p>"Three kinds of evidence point toward declines of some nutrients in fruits and vegetables available in the United States and the United Kingdom: 1) early studies of fertilization found inverse relationships between crop yield and mineral concentrations—the widely cited “dilution effect”; 2) three recent studies of historical food composition data found apparent median declines of 5% to 40% or more in some minerals in groups of vegetables and perhaps fruits; one study also evaluated vitamins and protein with similar results; and 3) recent side-by-side plantings of low- and high-yield cultivars of broccoli and grains found consistently negative correlations between yield and concentrations of minerals and protein, a newly recognized genetic dilution effect. "
I understand this seems mostly to be about soil depletion. I'm curious more generally if vegetables are also less nutritious because they are selectively bread for high water content and size. For example, its appeared to me for years that you vegetables you get on a Subway sandwich must have almost no nutritional content. They are all way paler than you'd normally see, and super watery.<p>Thinking about it, I suppose the vegetables may get that way from growing in poor soil, and Subway et al just buy those ones because they're cheaper
The BBC more or less episode with James Wong is making me wonder if this is true (shorter summary of what James said on the podcast: <a href="https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276801" rel="nofollow">https://mobile.twitter.com/Botanygeek/status/984708381507276...</a> )<p>Anyway, from the paper here:<p>>> with estimates that vegetables have dropped magnesium levels by 80–90% in the U.S. (Figure 2) and the UK [11,12,13,32,33]<p>Reference 11 doesn’t support this claim.<p>Ref 12 doesn’t directly mention Mg but does say some nutrients have dropped between 5-40% which is NOT 80-90%<p>Ref 13 does mention mg specifically on page 3 but states under 20%.<p>…<p>I think i’m being fleeced by this paper.
I wonder what the source of the nutrition information on FDA labels is. They're not assessing every batch of produce. Is the information we're told about the vitamins and minerals in our broccoli based on crops from last year? A decade ago? A century ago? Is it possible we think we're eating twice as many nutrients as we actually are?
When we moved to the Bay Area, I started going to the farmers markets and was blown away by the quality of the vegetables. Peas grown at Iacopi Farms in Half Moon Bay were crisp and sweet. Zuckerman's Farm grew a special kind of squash bred specifically for flavor (honeynut squash). Fresh plums pulled off of trees in San Francisco were just bursting with juice. Mashed potatoes made from La Ratte potatoes. And Delta asparagus — wow.<p>Now that we've left the Bay Area, I find that I'm even more disappointed by grocery store vegetables than I used to be. The vegetables are dry, wilted, flavorless — repugnant even. No wonder children don't want to eat them. Seriously considering setting up a miniature green house and growing my own stuff at this point.
And less tasty. One of my in-laws started an organic garden solely to supply a local hotel down the country and she gave us a big box of vegetables when we were leaving after a visit.<p>It was very revealing. Everything she gave us had distinct and powerful tastes that were blatantly lacking from their supermarket equivalents (including the ones that say Organic on the label). The garlic blew my mind: I used the usual number of cloves in a recipe and ... well ... we were reeking.
I know geeks love Norman Borlaug, but there was a catch: the new high-yield varieties are dependent on fertilizers made from fossil fuels. These plants grow fast and have more carbs and less of everything else. There needs to be a second Green Revolution, this time sustainable.
My youngest daughter struggled mightily with constipation for the first six years of her life. Hours on the toilet crying, day after day.<p>At some point when she was six or maybe seven, I read a blurb somewhere about the importance of magnesium for smooth muscle operation. That day I added a teaspoon of epsom salt to some juice and gave it to her. The next day her constipation disappeared.<p>We all now take cheap 400 mg Mg supplement daily, and in the five years since she hasn't been constipated even once. Closest thing to a "miracle cure" I've ever encountered.<p>We're all vegetarians and do pretty well on fiber, but increasing my daughter's insoluble fiber intake when she was little was difficult, and resulted only in more bloating. But a little magnesium, whatever the mechanism, fixed her right up.
> Magnesium deficiency can be attributed to common dietary practices, medications, and farming techniques, along with estimates that the mineral content of vegetables has declined by as much as 80–90% in the last 100 years.<p>This is why, when people defend GMOs with the argument that we've been genetically modifying plants and animals for hundreds of years by selective breeding, that I don't think that argument leads to the conclusions they're looking for which is that its all perfectly harmless.
The paper shows that it is essentially impossible for an adult male to get the recommended DI of magnesium (420 mg/day) by eating vegetables alone. As far as I can see, the paper does not resolve whether that target is too high, or whether it can be reached by eating meat or taking supplements.
one big potential problem with simply adding magnesium to fertilizers is that its is extremely hydrophilic and will lock to water and become impenetrable. My suspicion is that one of the larger issues that aren't even discussed is the role of fungi in the soil. Usually there is a symbiotic relationship between plants and fungi whereby the fungi breaks down minerals in the soil and hands off these precious ions to the plant in exchange for sugars. By giving readily digestible nutrients to the plants via artificial fertilizers, we rob the fungi of its role. The plants stop working with the fungi and they soon die off. This in turn robs us of nutrients the plant would have attained as a result of the symbiotic relationship. Magnesium being among them.
I'd expect the same deficiencies to show up downstream in grain and soy fed cows, pigs and chickens. For meat eaters, that's an argument to spend more for grass fed beef, lamb, buffalo, and pastured chicken eggs.<p>I don't know if such regenerative agriculture can scale up enough to feed everyone, but it can become a lot more affordable and accessible than it is now.
I had sleep issues for years, including periodic limb movements[1]. My sleep doctor said to try 500mg plus of magnesium supplements. That was probably one of the most significant steps to (mostly) resolve the issue.<p>1 - <a href="https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disorder" rel="nofollow">https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periodic_limb_movement_disor...</a><p>PS full TMI story here: <a href="https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_cpps_nocturia_and_insomnia_journey_and_what/" rel="nofollow">https://www.reddit.com/r/PelvicFloor/comments/kq089v/my_25_c...</a>
I know we’re all talking about the supplements we take, which fixes the issues for the individual, but what of the actual problem ?<p>I’m starting to feel like the USA is doomed in the long run because there’s too many corrupt influences in politics and science.<p>We’re constantly told x is good for us. Until we all find out it really wasn’t and now we're in trouble.
Magnesium solved two problems for me: stiff muscles and insomnia.<p>Scientific information about how magnesium works is hard to come by. Here's what I have been able to gather from various sources: The cells in your body need calcium to go into "on state". To go into "off state" magnesium has to go in and displace calcium.<p>When your body is low on magnesium your muscles can't go into "off state" and your muscles become stiff. To relax you need an Epsom salt bath (it contains magnesium) or just take magnesium supplements.<p>When your brain cells can't go to "off state" you can't sleep. You need magnesium to help your brain cells go into off state. However the "blood brain barrier" (look it up) prevents magnesium from easily entering the brain. Magnesium l-threonate (that's a compound of magnesium, not a brand name) can pass through this barrier and help you sleep.<p>I have had sleep issues for many years. I saw many doctors including sleep specialists but all they wanted to do is put me on prescription meds. But these meds are addictive and you have to take it for the rest of your life. I didn't want that. These are "quick fixes". As a software developer I was interested in finding the underlying problem and fix that, as opposed to the quick fixes that the medical community was offering me.<p>A breakthrough came when I saw a naturopathic doctor for my stiff muscles and she advised me to take Epsom salt baths. That seemed to help. I investigated more and found out that the ingredient in Epsom salt that helped me is magnesium. Then I found out that you can actually get magnesium pills and tried that. That worked remarkably well. But the big surprise was that I slept better the night I tried the magnesium pill. Since then I have been researching how it is that magnesium helped me sleep.<p>Stress depletes magnesium in your body. If you are a software developer you are stressing your brain all day when you do your job and you are depleting magnesium. Low magnesium levels causes muscle issues as well as sleep issues. Magnesium supplements solve the problem.<p>It is very unfortunate that medical doctors don't seem to be very knowledgeable about this topic. When I see doctors I mention that I am taking magnesium for muscle and sleep issues and they seem surprised, but no doctor has yet told me that I am wrong.<p>Note that magnesium is a natural mineral, not a drug, essential for your body, and found in many foods. Excess amounts of magnesium can cause a laxative effect, but this is very temporary.
Anecdotal, but I personally would get ocular migraines pretty frequently for years. They started when I was a teenager, but I was always told by doctors that it was nothing to worry about.<p>A few years ago I read about magnesium deficiency and migraines, figured it was worth a shot to try supplementing it, and now I rarely get those ocular migraines. The only time I get them now is when I run out of magnesium supplements, forget to buy more, and end up going a few weeks without them.<p>I really can’t say that it’s the magnesium, but as long as I’m not getting the ocular migraines anymore I’ll continue to supplement it. A bit of a warning though, it can act as a laxative for some people and cause digestive issues. Liquid based forms are gentler. Mineral water tends to have high magnesium content as well (e.g. Gerolsteiner brand).
I’m not arguing against these findings but the whole subject of nutrition leaves me frustrated at times.<p>Ever tried to have 100% daily recommended intake of every nutrient? I suspect almost nobody achieves that.<p>And yet, despite this, and magnesium issues among likely many other issues, our species has never lived longer, grown taller, survived infancy, etc. more than we have now.<p>That being said, as we understand and overcome specific issues, I imagine we can become even healthier.
A good article I read on a similar angle:<p><a href="https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrients-carbon-dioxide-000511/" rel="nofollow">https://www.politico.com/agenda/story/2017/09/13/food-nutrie...</a>
Should vitamin and mineral levels be checked during yearly checkups as standard practice? It seems like it would give us a lot of useful data and help people live healthier lives.
Coincidence?<p>"Vitamin D is currently the only Essential Vitamin or Mineral which appears to have deficiency rates at a similar level to Magnesium"<p><a href="https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient" rel="nofollow">https://examine.com/supplements/magnesium/research/#nutrient</a>...<p>Dai (2018): Magnesium status and supplementation influence vitamin D status and metabolism: results from a randomized trial <a href="https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/" rel="nofollow">https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30541089/</a> "Our findings suggest that optimal magnesium status may be important for optimizing 25(OH)D status. "<p>So it might well be that general deficiency in Vitamin D is caused by the deficiency in magnesium status. This would also be an explanation why we see Vitamin D deficiency in sunny Africa: <a href="https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-not-common-in-africa-think-again-140080" rel="nofollow">https://theconversation.com/think-vitamin-d-deficiency-is-no...</a>
If you ever travel in a developing nation like Nepal and eat the vegetables in a rural region there, and then return to the US/Canada, the difference is immediately noticeable.
Magnesium and other minerals don't disappear when consumed, it comes out again with sewage. Hence, soil depletion could be addressed by turning sewage into fertilizer.
I see a lot of discussion of nutrient content of farmed vegetables here. A cheap and easy alternative to farmed greens lies in foraging wild weeds. Reports from scientists at UC Berkeley have found that toxins like heavy metals, PCBs, etc don't bioaccumulate in these wild greens, so that's great. They rival kale and spinach in their nutritive value. And they're free! Learn to reliably identify the weeds around you and you'll find tons of joy in weeding your backyard or foraging at a park and getting a dinner salad (or bathua ka saag, or quelites, or horta, or minestrella soup) out of it. And it's incredibly unlikely someone's going to be pissed at you for picking their dandelions/purslane/cat's ear/goosefoot/plantain. (Do avoid areas that have had pesticide applied.)<p><a href="https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-city-areas-more-nutritious-than-store-bought-produce/" rel="nofollow">https://cosmosmagazine.com/biology/weeds-growing-in-poor-cit...</a><p><a href="https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1" rel="nofollow">https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/385864v1</a>
Plants in the wild are in a continuous battle against insects, molds and fungi and herbivores. They excrete assorted defensive chemical and build others into their tissues.
A 'pet' plant is protected against a large number of these attacks = it makes less of them. A number of these affect taste and flavor as the herbivore defences are turned off. Caterpillars are herbivore BTW.
So these pet plants become more pure pulp.
These are my speculations. but I think they are worth studying. Loss of Magnesium is a known decline caused by over use of magnesium by the plants grown and there has not been selective magnesium fertilisation. They should study some of the common rocks to see which ones are suitable to be ground up and added to the soil.
Meta comment on this thread so forgive me. There are only 40 comments and 3 of them are top level comments stating that taking magnesium supplements cured their health issue. One is anxiety, one is sleep issues, and one is migraines.<p>These are some of the same claims I hear from the marijuana enthusiasts on Reddit frequently.<p>I don’t have any points to make about the observation, just noticed it and felt compelled to share.
One thing I have noticed over the years is that I am addicted to the taste of Costco’s Kirkland signature bottled water (similar to Dasani but nothing like bottled “spring water”)<p>One hypothesis I have is that my body is craving magnesium, which is one of the “minerals added for taste”.
I wonder how nutritious edible weeds are? I assume a lot of the loss of nutrients comes from rigorously farming the same monoculture land for things like shitty iceberg lettuce. Maybe a little unfair to single that out when corn and tomatoes are especially greedy plants.<p>As I watch the edges of the woods get overtaken with garlic mustard and tearthumb, I'm thinking why not eat them? I realize this isn't going to work for those in a city but I do wonder about the nutrition of things growing wild on land that isn't typically farmed.
This is awfully technical, but in practical terms: Magnesium citrate is yummy. So should we all be taking it or is it useless as a substitute for the kind in vegetables?
If you are interested in this topic and want to know more, I highly recommend the book The Dorito Effect - <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_8T2KJGDGBN55WHR9430G" rel="nofollow">https://www.amazon.com/dp/1476724237/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm...</a>
Even if this was true, which it is not, if you have nutrient deficiencies you need supplements not better food.<p>In present day Western society if you don't get everything you need, which will be from disease, alcoholism, age, lack of sun or specific diets like Vegan, food cannot accurately help.
Jigsaw SRT Magnesium twice a day has solved my anxiety, muscle cramps, and heart palpitations. It’s one of the only “slow release” formulas out there. Magnesium normally can cause a laxative effect.
Another argument against the senseless, detrimental addition of Fluoride in water supply:<p>"<i>In addition, fluoride, found in 74% of the American population’s drinking water, with ~50% of drinking water having a concentration of 0.7 mg/L, prevents magnesium absorption through binding and production of insoluble complexes.</i>"
Matter cannot be created, just reformed. There were 100,000 humans at one point and now there are 7 billion. All that matter came from somewhere. To be fair, we have killed a lot of animals but also created a lot more in the form of farm animals.<p>It seems reasonable to me that this is unlikely to be sustainable even if we found a way to send humans off planet. Maybe that missing magnesium gets pulled out of the soil into crops, then into our bellies, and then into a wooden box that sits as far away from our arable land as we can get it.<p>I of course have no scientific background or idea what I’m taking about, just a fun pop science theory that came to mind when reading this.