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Law school applicants surge 13%, biggest increase since dot-com bubble

178 pointsby DLayalmost 4 years ago

26 comments

pmoriartyalmost 4 years ago
When I was considering going to law school I learned some sobering facts:<p>- something like 75% of lawyers would not recommend their children go in to law<p>- there is a high rate of burnout among lawyers<p>- while the public perception is that lawyers are extremely high paid, that&#x27;s only the case some elite lawyers that went to elite schools and work for elite firms[1]<p>For someone like me, who doesn&#x27;t just want to help the rich get richer, working in, say, a public defender&#x27;s office will probably mean being really overworked and underpaid and not even be able to devote a reasonable amount of time to the people I was defending because of the workload.<p>This made me wonder: do I really want to go from being burnt out in IT to being burnt out in law? It didn&#x27;t sound very appealing.<p>I&#x27;d love to hear a lawyer or someone else who knows more about this to correct me, if I&#x27;ve been mislead.<p>[1] - Just today on HN I was reading someone say that they pay their software developers &quot;much much more&quot; than their they do their legal department: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28050106" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28050106</a>
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jl2718almost 4 years ago
Summary: entry-level jobs dried up, so people are going to law school instead. Also political motivations.<p>Editorial: More lawyers make the country more complicated and less competitive. We need more and better people going into industrial and medical skilled trades. Think CAD&#x2F;CAM, not plumber. On the other hand, I think basic legal education would probably have been more relevant than almost anything I’ve ever learned in a classroom, and law school might have been worth it just for my own purposes. Minus the political activism of course, which I guess is center stage now.
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hn_throwaway_99almost 4 years ago
Man, so many people are going to be in for a world of hurt:<p>1. The increased applications and class sizes means there will be more competition for a smaller number of jobs when these folks graduate (tech is automating away a lot of legal work, too).<p>2. As others have commented, a huge percentage of lawyers regret going to law school. This is actually in direct contrast to many other professional degrees, e.g. MBAs score very high on the &quot;I&#x27;d still do it again&quot; question.<p>3. The regret sentiment is especially high among anything outside of a top 50 program.
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JCM9almost 4 years ago
When I was growing up there was this idea that the best of the best became doctors (physicians) and lawyers; and that these were well paid careers. Today that’s broadly no longer the case.<p>Both professions certainly have a top tier that earns a lot (top firm partner, top specialist surgeon) that does very well but the vast majority in both professions aren’t particularly well paid and also are no longer attracting the “best and brightest” out of graduating classes. Your typical established doctor these days makes what would be considered an early career salary at FAANG—and that’s before considering the crazy amounts of debt that many law and medical students take on. Many lawyers (outside top firms) make very little considering the amount of training required.<p>A savvy tradesman these days (e.g. Plumber) can easily make more than most lawyers and even many physicians. I’ve cited that a lot when giving career advice to those being pressured into a college degree when it’s probably not the right fit for them.
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readonthegoappalmost 4 years ago
Amazing how these two articles were timed to land right on top of each other....it&#x27;s almost like it was intentional.<p>¯\_(ツ)_&#x2F;¯<p>&quot;Law School Loses Luster as Debts Mount and Salaries Stagnate&quot;<p>The Wall Street Journal<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-sal...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;3hGsA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;3hGsA</a>
JumpCrisscrossalmost 4 years ago
Other side of the coin:<p>“Law school was once considered a surefire ticket to a comfortable life. Years of tuition increases have made it a fast way to get buried in debt.<p>Recent graduates of the University of Miami School of Law who used federal loans borrowed a median of $163,000. Two years later, half were earning $59,000 or less. That’s the biggest gap between debt and earnings among the top 100 law schools as ranked by U.S. News &amp; World Report, a Wall Street Journal analysis of federal data found.”<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-sal...</a>
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gnicholasalmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s not surprising that LSAT scores are higher due to the additional time to prep and the ability to control the testing environment. And in reality, it doesn&#x27;t matter that much. Schools will sort students just like they always have, and students will end up roughly where they otherwise would have. The whole application process is on a curve.<p>It&#x27;s also worth noting that over the last decade, it&#x27;s been increasingly easy to get into prestigious law schools. Students got wise to the fact that law school costs a ton and many students don&#x27;t get high-paying jobs. As a result, applications went down and lower-scoring students got into better schools. In some ways, this most recent stat may be mostly a reversion to the prior mean.
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rshloalmost 4 years ago
Many comments here assume that going to law school == becoming a lawyer. This is not always true. Many go to law school since it a degree that you can use in many other business fields even without practicing law.
arnalmost 4 years ago
Apparently med school applications were up 18% (in 2020). Which surprises me, I would think COVID might have scared more people off.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ama-assn.org&#x2F;residents-students&#x2F;preparing-medical-school&#x2F;applications-medical-school-big-it-fauci-effect" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ama-assn.org&#x2F;residents-students&#x2F;preparing-medica...</a>
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vwoolfalmost 4 years ago
Insane: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-salaries-university-miami-11627991855" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wsj.com&#x2F;articles&#x2F;law-school-student-debt-low-sal...</a>
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aaron695almost 4 years ago
Every year from 2000-2011 had more applications.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.lsac.org&#x2F;View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsApplicantsAdmitApps&amp;Format=PDF" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.lsac.org&#x2F;View.aspx?Report=AdmissionTrendsAppl...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.lsac.org&#x2F;VolumeSummary.aspx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;report.lsac.org&#x2F;VolumeSummary.aspx</a>
gigatexalalmost 4 years ago
I see the increase in people wanting to become lawyers as a negative signal about society. It suggests to me that the law is becoming too complex, that people litigate too much, and this complexity and propensity to litigate becomes a cost.<p>It’s not an entirely thought out hunch on my end but I think it ties in with how complex the tax code is. To me the tax code is needlessly complex. Sure it’ll likely never fit on a single page but does it need to require tombs and be so complex that smart individuals spend time and brain cells finding ways around it to save corporations and the wealthy money instead of working on science or something else that would benefit society?
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ilrwbwrkhvalmost 4 years ago
Wonder how much impact shows like Better Call Saul have on this
doggodaddo78almost 4 years ago
There are too many LS grads already. Why pile on debt wo a secure job?
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mostertoasteralmost 4 years ago
Honestly if you look at the direction the US is going, federal politicians are getting wealthier and wealthier while the middle class erodes into a larger and larger dependent lower class. Most of our congressman are lawyers. You have about two paths to wealth in America. Start a tech company hope to get bought big tech, become a lawyer hope to become a high up well connected politician. Because those connections are proving to pay off.
armchairhackeralmost 4 years ago
Are CS applications surging too? What about other fields? It seems like more people are applying to college in general.<p>Both my current and previous university, year after year keep having record numbers of applicants. And IIRC the CS program is getting more and more competitive.<p>I&#x27;m not sure about liberal-arts though.
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brightballalmost 4 years ago
I always thought law would be beneficial as a business owner, but not as a profession by itself.
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gverrillaalmost 4 years ago
I was in law school for 2 semesters. I got a job at a top m&amp;a and societary office, in one of the highest profile avenues in the tropical capital I lived in, as an intern. It was summer, lunchtime, and I was walking on said avenue when my boss crossed me. He stopped and all of a sudden reached for my tie knot, to check if the button behind it was correctly buttoned (is this the right word?). He proceeded to tell me I was an employee of his high-tier office even during lunchtime and I should always keep appearances. Luckily I&#x27;m deeply anti-violence, because my first instinct when he touched my tie was to smash his face. I didn&#x27;t return to the office, and soon after that I quit law school. By that time my tactics to circumvent the office proxy and access forbidden websites had gone viral :P.
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halfmatthalfcatalmost 4 years ago
My brother just did a joint JD&#x2F;MBA, he said it was one of the hardest things he&#x27;s ever done. I think it was a pretty smart move to hedge the JD though, due to many of the anecdotes in this thread.
justinzollarsalmost 4 years ago
scary. Also a bad signal for the future (in the US).
vmceptionalmost 4 years ago
Having a lawyer or two as your indentured servant would amplify your rights in this country (US)<p>There are alot of privacy benefits possible<p>Nice to see this becoming more economical to do
xystalmost 4 years ago
another red flag of an impending crash?
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Gene_Parmesanalmost 4 years ago
Phew. Good luck to all of them.<p>I was part of the crowd that used law school to avoid entering the job market on the tail end of the 2007 crisis. I actually really enjoyed law school itself; it&#x27;s a good fit for people with brains that are a combination of analytical and philosophical. Of course, it&#x27;s trite at this point to mention the reality that law school does not prepare you whatsoever for the job of being a lawyer. Imagine if med school classes were all about the &#x27;idea&#x27; of medicine, the philosophy of medicine, that sort of thing, and actually practicing medicine was limited to electives and extracurriculars.<p>I went to a school that was T20 and on the cusp of being T14, so a good school. I had a half tuition scholarship on $40,000+&#x2F;yr and still walked away with nearly $150k in student loans.<p>Law schools are <i>extremely</i> cheap for universities to run, but they can get away with charging astronomical tuition because everyone is convinced law school will make them rich. (It won&#x27;t, unless you have a dedication to the work of being a biglaw attorney that most people don&#x27;t have.) Universities love law schools because they can use them to pay for more expensive programs (science labs, etc.).<p>The idea of making multiple six figures is almost universally a myth that schools love to cultivate. You only really have a shot at this if you go to a T20 school (or are highly connected). And even if you do get this sort of job, it is soul sucking work; your job at that sort of firm is simply to maximize billings. Nothing of value is created. You will work 70&#x2F;80 hour weeks creating nothing. I had many friends from school go to these sort of firms and, almost to a one, they have all quit the biglaw scene.<p>But what the law schools don&#x27;t tell you is how oversaturated the legal employment market is, and oversaturation =&gt; depressed salaries. If you are not one of the few to go biglaw (or do not want biglaw), good luck. I worked as a criminal prosecutor because I found the work interesting. I started at $39k -- in a fairly major city, too. I know so many people with eye-wateringly expensive law degrees who are thrilled to be finding contract or temp work at $20 an hour.<p>As for me, it took me about six months to realize the practice of law wasn&#x27;t for me and a total of six years to get out of it. I ended up rediscovering a love of programming I had had from when I was a kid, and spend 4 years self-studying CS&#x2F;software dev. I transitioned to a software dev role going on 3 years ago now and feel like a new person. I can&#x27;t really say I regret law school, firstly because I met my wife and many good friends there and in the legal profession generally, but secondly because there&#x27;s a chance having the degree from a well known school could pay off down the road in some sort of management role. However, was it worth the cost? Almost certainly not.<p>I&#x27;ll close by saying, if you are someone who loves building things, you will likely not do well with the law. It is mental work, yes, and logic is involved definitely, but the &#x27;products&#x27; you will be creating are motions, briefs, and memos. If you are someone who has a love for collaborative problem solving, you will likely hate it. There is very little I found collaborative in law. Even in law school, absurdly competitive attitudes abound, and in the big firms themselves, the ones who will succeed are in constant &#x27;cold war&#x27;-style competition for things like partner track. If your work is litigation, then by definition the work is the polar opposite of collaborative. This was what probably put me off the practice the most; I would be handling a criminal case and my brain would be aching for an easily available compromise, but being an advocate means fighting for your client (in my case, the &quot;people&quot;).
throwitaway1235almost 4 years ago
Here&#x27;s some not so positive data - &quot;recent University of Miami law school graduates borrowed a median of $163k, two years later were earning $59k or less.&quot;
chersellealmost 4 years ago
That&#x27;s a considerable increase since the dot-com bubble. Being in law gives you a considerable salary compared to other jobs. Also, it attracts many people because of its salary, but that&#x27;s not always the case; the ones that receive high salaries are the people in the top part of the pyramid. It might take a decade but if you&#x27;re willing to make the grind then, go for it.
lettergramalmost 4 years ago
I know I’ve considered applying to law school because I want someone to fight these damn lockdowns.<p>I’m curious how much of this is really a combination of more study time and people seeing value in law. Between election cases, lockdowns, etc law has been the center of a lot of the last year.
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