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Bring back hydrogen lifting gas

253 pointsby harporoederalmost 4 years ago

28 comments

FabHKalmost 4 years ago
TLDR:<p>&gt; With modern engineering standards, there is no doubt that hydrogen could be made a safe lifting gas.<p>Disadvantages of hydrogen:<p>* burns (but only with sufficient oxygen, eg a mixture of air and 4% up to 75% hydrogen)<p>Advantages of hydrogen:<p>* lifts 8% more than helium (per volume). Not a huge difference, but not trivial for an airship<p>* costs 98.5% less than helium (!) (Airships have crashed because helium was too expensive to vent: safety valves on the <i>USS Shenandoah</i> were capped, 14 crew members lost their lives.)<p>&gt; Airships are too slow for human travel<p>Too slow for transportation, maybe. But leisure travel? Imagine a one week air safari from Kilimandjaro and the Serengeti to Kruger Park. It could be awesome.<p>Edit to add:<p>(Leisure air travel&#x2F;Safari is my own pipe dream. The article suggests cargo):<p>&gt; If airships were to make a major comeback, it would be in cargo service.<p>&gt; Cargo airships would need to be big—bigger than the Hindenburg. [...] ”’the lift-to-drag ratio, a critical parameter in aircraft performance, gets better as the airship gets bigger)<p>&gt; Ginormous airships require a lot of lifting gas—perhaps a million cubic meters<p>&gt; FAA has discouraged the return of the airship in the use case that makes the most sense
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ckastneralmost 4 years ago
Hydrogen is probably not as unsafe as the general population might think it is, but it find it bizarre just how much the article downplays the flammability issue. For example:<p>&gt; <i>Fun fact: pure hydrogen doesn’t burn. It needs an oxidizer—like the oxygen in air.</i><p>Airships literally float in that oxidizier!
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joefiguraalmost 4 years ago
Interesting piece! I think the article makes some good points, but I don&#x27;t think that helium is the reason that airships have failed to find use cases. The benefits of hydrogen do not change the fundamentals of the business case. Hydrogen&#x27;s cheaper, but even using helium the lifting gas is &lt;20% of the operating cost of the airship. The hangar, cost of the vehicle, and maintenance are all more impactful than the cost of the lifting gas.<p>The bigger hurdle that airship startups have faced is the upfront cost of developing a new vehicle with a many ton payload. Projects trying to build very large airships have so far to get a vehicle to market, because of the amount of capital it requires and the lack of a strong, specific commercial case (Hybrid Air Vehicles, Cargolifter, Lockheed&#x27;s Hybrid Airships). Changing the lifting gas to hydrogen does not address those challenges. But airships are certainly underutilized - I&#x27;m optimistic for their future!
newbie789almost 4 years ago
This article is interesting. “Hydrogen doesn’t explode without being mixed with air first then ignited” is a kind of funny statement. I read that as “hydrogen doesn’t explode outside of when it does”<p>I’d ask “was this written by a hydrogen sales team?” but it’d be mind boggling if it weren’t. The blaming of special interest groups right off the bat, and the blaming the lower-performing helium as the cause for a crash (that iirc, involved a leak so I’m not sure how that 8% difference could’ve saved everyone) are naked examples of sales speech.<p>“Maybe you’ll blow up! Who cares? You get 8% more lift and stick it to the uh, Bureau Of Mines”
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kozakalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve been thinking of it the same way since I learned that helium is a non-renewable fossil resource. Once it&#x27;s gone, it&#x27;s gone.
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Baeocystinalmost 4 years ago
Hydrogen gas leaks through <i>everything</i>, and embrittles most metals. It is not an easy substance to work with. Combine that with having one of the widest ignition ranges of any flammable material, and I&#x27;ll just stay on the dubious side of it ever getting used as a large-scale lifting gas again.
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cycomanicalmost 4 years ago
I haven&#x27;t seen anyone mentioning cargolifter [1] which was a company in Germany which tried to commercialise the development of a cargo airship (incidentally using helium). They had a lot of press coverage at the time and many shareholders were private investors. They did got bankrupt in 2002, largely because development of an aircraft is expensive and long. Maybe someone needs to excite Elon about it to get sufficient funding.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;CargoLifter" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;CargoLifter</a>
frompdxalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;m always hopeful that airships will make a comeback. I would love to be able to travel from the United States to Europe on an airship, just like they did at the in the early 20th century. I can see a lot of advantage from a comfort perspective, even if it does take more time than a plane.<p>If you are interested in the history of airship travel, and its rise and fall, I highly recommend <i>The Deltoid Pumpkin Seed</i> by John McPhee. It&#x27;s a short book about an unlikely union of ex Navy airshipmen and evangelical Christians chasing the impossible dream of brining airship travel back in an era where the world had moved on from airship travel.
dragosmocriialmost 4 years ago
Although there&#x27;s a slight difference in meaning, I prefer the term zeppelin to blimp.<p>fyi: the difference is in the frame construction. A zeppelin has a rigid frame that keeps it&#x27;s shape if the gas is lost, whereas a blimp has a semi-rigid frame that will deflate if the gas isn&#x27;t present.
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cantagialmost 4 years ago
Why could an airship not be made using a vacuum instead of a lifting gas?<p>A quick google reveals that someone has thought of this before: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Vacuum_airship" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Vacuum_airship</a> and it seems like it might not be possible with currently available materials.<p>Would it be possible to reduce the density of helium for the same pressure by electrostatically charging it to make the molecules repel, effectively turning the airship into a giant capacitor with alternating +ve and -ve sections?
epistasisalmost 4 years ago
This is really interesting... I am suspicious of fossil fuel based hydrogen, but as electrolyzed hydrogen gets cheaper, this could be very useful for some applications.
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elihualmost 4 years ago
A couple other options beside hydrogen&#x2F;helium: vacuum chambers, hot air.<p>I don&#x27;t know if we have the technology to build a compressive structure that can withstand atmospheric pressure and yet be lighter than the air it displaces. That sounds like an interesting problem to work on. I imagine getting it to work out would be easier the larger the structure is, within reason.<p>I assume that hot air isn&#x27;t competitive with either hydrogen or helium in terms of lift, and it takes additional energy to keep it hot. On the other hand, air is free and it&#x27;s not inherently flammable by itself. Maybe a well-insulated airship that acts as a solar greenhouse could get quite warm and stay that way?
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xphosalmost 4 years ago
So like I think the claim about the thermite coating could be wrong. That is my only concern you can&#x27;t have the ship burst into flames in a minute. I don&#x27;t know the truth of the hindenburg but it does seem like you could mitigate the flammability risk under good conditions but like security also comes to mind what if these things get hijacked. Like they do move slow but are basically a moving ball of death if they light on fire.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airships.net&#x2F;hindenburg&#x2F;disaster&#x2F;myths&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airships.net&#x2F;hindenburg&#x2F;disaster&#x2F;myths&#x2F;</a>
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artichikinalmost 4 years ago
This article is very USA centric — it centers around it being banned for lift in the states — but that wouldn’t stop just about everywhere else on the planet from building hydrogen air ships, if they are viable.
csoursalmost 4 years ago
I thought the bigger safety problem with lighter than air travel was weather? As in, anything less than perfect surface conditions may result in disaster when you go to moor the aircraft.
briefcommentalmost 4 years ago
Is it possible to make a road ready hovercraft that uses lifting gas like hydrogen? Getting tired of particulate matter from tires, brakes, road wear, etc.
CuriouslyCalmost 4 years ago
One nice feature of hydrogen is that you can use it for lift and also for fuel (and it has good energy density).<p>I&#x27;ve been wondering for a while if hydrogen airships couldn&#x27;t make flying cars a reality. It seems like a hybrid jet&#x2F;zeppelin could find a sweet spot in terms of performance and sustainability.
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ivanbalmost 4 years ago
Hydrogen airships are terrible against any kind of attack. They are so slow and flammable that one can bring them down with just a flying toy. I&#x27;m not even talking about incendiary ammunition. You would not put people or expensive cargo on a low and slow flying bomb in 21 century.
supernova87aalmost 4 years ago
How often are the blimps fully deflated of their helium and then refilled, and is all that helium just basically let up into the atmosphere and wasted? Given some of our recent helium shortages, it seems really wasteful, even if it may be (currently) not costly.
trenningalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve found it interesting that power plant generators are sealed and cooled with hydrogen gas. A hundred tons of steel and copper generating thousands of volts of electricity is cooled with hydrogen.<p>Sounds like a recipe for an explosion movie style, yet there aren&#x27;t any.
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fsckboyalmost 4 years ago
this article reads like the &quot;a world without zinc!&quot; school documentary spoof subplot on the Simpson&#x27;s <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=U1iCZpFMYd0" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=U1iCZpFMYd0</a><p>and the spat He... no, that&#x27;s helium... She has with helium and in favor of hydrogen overshadows the more interesting suggestion at the end, that airships might make a lot of sense for cargo transportation. I wish the article made that case better!
footaalmost 4 years ago
Out of curiosity, would it be feasible to produce enough helium for commercial use through fusion (either power generating or not)?
iso1210almost 4 years ago
Fossil fuel companies getting PR to spin everything they can into trying to improve hydrogen&#x27;s image.
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DonHopkinsalmost 4 years ago
SF author Fritz Leiber wrote an alternative history short story called &quot;Catch That Zeppelin!&quot;, which won the 1975 Nebula Award for Best Short Story and the 1976 Hugo Award for Best Short Story.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Catch_That_Zeppelin" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Catch_That_Zeppelin</a>!<p>&gt;When Fritz Leiber sees a Zeppelin moored at the Empire State Building one afternoon in 1973, he realizes that he has shifted into another timeline — one where a more decisive defeat of Germany at the end of the First World War led to greater international prosperity and a deeper, more acceptable peace, with the result that America was willing to sell Germany helium for use in airships, thereby preventing the Hindenburg disaster. Also, the year has changed from 1973 to 1937, and Leiber has become a patriotic-but-peaceful German airship engineer named Adolf Hitler.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;40626645-catch-that-zeppelin" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.goodreads.com&#x2F;book&#x2F;show&#x2F;40626645-catch-that-zepp...</a>
findthewordsalmost 4 years ago
A clear example how money in the military-industrial complex (or DARPA) directs innovation paths. The military does not approve of hydrogen blimps, and so neither can the civilian sector use them.
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dredmorbiusalmost 4 years ago
Airships are a concept which is inherently attractive given their theoretical simplicity, but highly impracticle on closer examination. They&#x27;re not impossible, but they&#x27;re far less viable than would first appear.<p>Heavier-than-air powered aircraft were largely a result of powerful engines and energy-dense fuels. Emergence of mass-produced automobiles and the first aircraft occurred within a few years of each other. Materials science (duraluminium) was another major factor. Aeronautical engineering was largely secondary and likely would have emerged with experience regardless.<p>For airships, the key enabling factors are lifting gases and materials, in this case the gas-bag envelopes. For early-20th-century airships, the material of preference was ox intestines, glued together. One airship required the entrails of ~800,000 oxen.<p>See EngineerGuy’s video (accompanies his book) on the doomed British Airship R-101:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=ixxXhZVFXxQ" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=ixxXhZVFXxQ</a><p>There are some factors which might help, and others which still work against, airships.<p>Rather than hydrogen, a &quot;hot helium&quot; design might offer greater flexibility. There&#x27;s actually some research of such concepts: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ui.adsabs.harvard.edu&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1987STIA...8748646R&#x2F;abstract" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ui.adsabs.harvard.edu&#x2F;abs&#x2F;1987STIA...8748646R&#x2F;abstra...</a><p>Materials science might allow for improvements in gas-bag design. Plastics made mid-century blimps possible, and modern Zeppelin semi-rigid airships rely on PVF (polyvinyl fluouride), principally. Graphene or other monatomic sheet materials might allow for thinner and&#x2F;or stronger designs. Similarly structural components (frames, guy-wires) might benefit by both materials and computer-aided design and improve mass:volume ratios, safety margins, maintenance requirements, or other factors.<p>Improved lifting gas properties or mixes might also be an option, though here chemistry is fundamentally limiting.<p>Integrating PV capabilities into an outer skin might reduce fuel requirements, though even covering <i>all</i> the top surface of a USS <i>Los Angeles</i> sized airship (200m x 30m) would provide less than 300 kW of power. The Zeppelin NT (70m x 14m) has 3x 150 kW engines (450 kW total). Routing electricity next to hydrogen gas bags might prove problematic.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Zeppelin_NT" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Zeppelin_NT</a><p>In all, I expect materials innovation might contribute to fractional improvements in airship capabilities or aspects, but not improvements of multiples.<p>Note that airships also have the submariner’s problem concerning buoyancy: lift is proportional to volume, but volume varies with pressure. As a submarine descends, there’s additional pressure on its buoyancy tanks, compressing the gas within them, reducing buoyancy further. As a submarine sinks, it wants to sink further, which may prove interesting if crush depth is exceeded. (Destin Sandlin’s recent “Smarter Every Day” series aboard the USS Toledo is pretty fascinating in this regard.) By contrast, in an airplane, lifting forces <i>increase</i> as one descends, and <i>decrease</i> as one ascends.<p>For airships and balloons, you’ve got the reverse problem: as they rise, the lifting gas expands. After a point one of three things must occur: the gas is vented (and lost forever), the envelope expands, or the gas is pressurised (meaning carrying the additional mass of compressors and pressure vessels).<p>One of the biggest disadvantages of airships compared to jet aircraft is that jets fly <i>above</i> the weather, at 30k--40k feet, whilst airships fly <i>in</i> it, often at only a few hundred feet altitude. The Hindenberg’s cruise altitude was 200m (650 ft), see: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airships.net&#x2F;hindenburg&#x2F;flight-operations-procedures&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airships.net&#x2F;hindenburg&#x2F;flight-operations-proced...</a> Operating and flight ceilings of 16k and 21k feet were apparently possible. Passenger Zeppelins were unpressurised. Note that this makes crossing even relatively low mountain ranges a challenge. Given the large number of airship failures in which wind and weather were primary or contributing causes, this is a major handicap.<p>The altitude record for an airship is 95,000 ft, though that’s for an unmanned system consisting of little more than the lifting balloons, frame, and propulsion. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newatlas.com&#x2F;highest-airship-flight-record&#x2F;20379&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;newatlas.com&#x2F;highest-airship-flight-record&#x2F;20379&#x2F;</a><p>High-altitude flight requires a pressurised passenger compartment (increasing costs and risks), supplemental oxygen (the jet airliner&#x27;s air-bleed pressurisation system is not available), and other factors.<p>The other massive disadvantage is that airships serve a limited number of roles and compete poorly against alternatives. They&#x27;re highly intermediate between heavier-than-air airplanes and ships. They lack the former&#x27;s speed (115 kph vs. 1,000 kph), and the latter&#x27;s cargo capacity (160 tonne vs. 210,000 tonne for a Triple E-class Maersk container ship). Overland, airships would have to compete with river and canal traffic, rail, and trucking. The remaining remote-location work is likely of relatively limited economic value.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Triple_E-class_container_ship" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Triple_E-class_container_ship</a><p>That leaves the prospect of intercontinental trans-oceanic voyages, probably largely passenger and high-value cargo. Airships are likely to be limited to ~100 -- 200 kph. A transatlantic trip (NYC-LON) would take 1dy 4h to 2dy 8h. A Los Angeles -- Shanghai trip would be 2--4 days. Los Angeles to Sydney, 2.5--5 days. Given no other options, I could see that happening, but even a drastically curtailed fuel-based airliner industry would likely be preferable. Given either a carbon offset, synthetic hydrocarbon analogues, or carbon-neutral fuels, this seems more likely.
binbagalmost 4 years ago
Is this a reprint from April 1st?
renewiltordalmost 4 years ago
An entertaining read <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RealhumanSchwab&#x2F;status&#x2F;1421949421781061633?s=20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RealhumanSchwab&#x2F;status&#x2F;14219494217810616...</a><p>Very related. I won’t spoil it for you but it’s entertaining.<p>Edit: Responders, please! You’re spoiling the fun! If <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RealhumanSchwab&#x2F;status&#x2F;1421949607542616064?s=20" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;RealhumanSchwab&#x2F;status&#x2F;14219496075426160...</a> doesn’t give it away I don’t know what will.
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