TE
TechEcho
Home24h TopNewestBestAskShowJobs
GitHubTwitter
Home

TechEcho

A tech news platform built with Next.js, providing global tech news and discussions.

GitHubTwitter

Home

HomeNewestBestAskShowJobs

Resources

HackerNews APIOriginal HackerNewsNext.js

© 2025 TechEcho. All rights reserved.

Court rules California's Prop. 22 on Uber, Lyft drivers unconstitutional

312 pointsby ahurmazdaalmost 4 years ago

31 comments

AaronFrielalmost 4 years ago
One wonders about the hubris of the folks who approved this part of Prop 22:<p><pre><code> After the effective date of this chapter, the Legislature may amend this chapter by a statute passed in each house of the Legislature by rollcall vote entered into the journal, seven-eighths of the membership concurring, provided that the statute is consistent with, and furthers the purpose of, this chapter. </code></pre> Prop 22 was intended to be almost impossible to overturn, requiring a higher bar for amendment than even the state constitution, and only permitting the legislature to amend it if the amendment was &quot;consistent with&quot; Prop 22.<p>Regardless of one&#x27;s opinion about Prop 22 and AB5, this provision was undemocratic at its core because it deprived future citizens and their representatives of their ability to modify the law.
评论 #28253699 未加载
评论 #28254416 未加载
评论 #28256614 未加载
评论 #28254449 未加载
评论 #28255527 未加载
评论 #28255669 未加载
评论 #28254575 未加载
评论 #28253897 未加载
评论 #28259306 未加载
评论 #28254224 未加载
评论 #28254395 未加载
评论 #28257138 未加载
IncRndalmost 4 years ago
It took me a few seconds to learn there are two kinds of ballot initiatives in CA. They can have the force of statutes or constitutional amendments. Prop 22 was written to be a statute, so of course it couldn&#x27;t override the state constitution. Whoever wrote it made a huge mistake.<p>&quot;Citizens of California may initiate legislation as either a state statute or a constitutional amendment. In California, citizens also have the power to repeal legislation via veto referendum. The California State Legislature may also place measures on the ballot as legislatively referred constitutional amendments or legislatively referred state statutes. Referred amendments require a 2&#x2F;3 vote of each chamber.&quot; [1]<p>From the article: &quot;it limits the power of a future Legislature to define app-based drivers as workers subject to workers’ compensation law.&quot; That makes the entire ballot measure unenforceable, Roesch said.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;Laws_governing_the_initiative_process_in_California" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;ballotpedia.org&#x2F;Laws_governing_the_initiative_proces...</a>
评论 #28253535 未加载
评论 #28253896 未加载
beckman466almost 4 years ago
This is the ballot initiative that Uber and Lyft pumped $200 million into a misinformation campaign for<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vice.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;article&#x2F;akddx8&#x2F;proposition-22s-victory-shows-how-uber-and-lyft-break-democracy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.vice.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;article&#x2F;akddx8&#x2F;proposition-22s-victo...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;bigblackjacobin&#x2F;status&#x2F;1294865684782919686" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;bigblackjacobin&#x2F;status&#x2F;12948656847829196...</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;darakerr&#x2F;status&#x2F;1299395127253762049" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;darakerr&#x2F;status&#x2F;1299395127253762049</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;200-million-uber-lyft-write-own-labor-law&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.wired.com&#x2F;story&#x2F;200-million-uber-lyft-write-own-...</a>
评论 #28254267 未加载
评论 #28254609 未加载
endisneighalmost 4 years ago
Customers don’t want gig work - customers want cheap labor.<p>I’d be surprised if Uber wins an appeal at any level. With Uber you have to follow their rules, follow their timing once a ride is scheduled, you can’t set your own prices, nor can you use any vehicle you’d like.<p>In summary, an Uber driver cannot complete their ride the way they want with no restrictions.<p>Seems like a slam dunk for classifying as an employee.<p>A true gig Uber would basically just be eBay, except it would have an algorithm to schedule the rides based on your location and arbitrary filtering requirements.
评论 #28254013 未加载
评论 #28256963 未加载
评论 #28266026 未加载
okareamanalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;m happy about this and I used to be for Prop 22. After I retired I drove for a year from Aug 2019 to Aug 2020 (I quit because Pandemic.) I didn&#x27;t work full time, but maybe 20 - 25 hours a week. I did 2000 rides. I had a fun, met a lot of interesting people, and got to drive in many cities in California. I loved the flexibility of the job. However when I added it all up, I netted about $6,000, which works out to about $6&#x2F;hr or $3 per ride. This includes tips. A lot of people don&#x27;t tip since when Uber started up they said ppl didn&#x27;t have to. Now I am of the opinion that the ride share companies should pay closer to a living wage so drivers don&#x27;t have to practically live in their cars. Not everyone can be retired taking joy rides like I did.
评论 #28256758 未加载
评论 #28256505 未加载
评论 #28262652 未加载
评论 #28255083 未加载
评论 #28255840 未加载
评论 #28256568 未加载
jvanderbotalmost 4 years ago
The fact that companies can overtly introduce laws for their own benefit and directly advertise to voters is both disgusting and an improvement on the federal system of lobbying and campaign finance.
评论 #28253290 未加载
评论 #28254350 未加载
评论 #28253806 未加载
评论 #28253875 未加载
评论 #28253637 未加载
评论 #28254773 未加载
评论 #28253375 未加载
samenamealmost 4 years ago
Basically, through Uber’s greed in the proposition by writing in the provision about legislators not being able to overturn Prop 22, Uber et al ended up getting the whole Proposition cancelled vs if they&#x27;d just kept it for the contractor stuff.<p>This is just the Superior Court’s ruling
评论 #28253721 未加载
评论 #28256574 未加载
评论 #28260160 未加载
评论 #28253716 未加载
czhu12almost 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve all but stopped taking Uber &#x2F; Lyft in SF since the pool option was removed and $6 dollar rides started becoming $20+. Mostly adjusted lifestyle by:<p>1. Taking buses 2. Traveling less in general<p>I guess the $6 ride business model was never sustainable.<p>I&#x27;m actually all for better treatment of ride-share drivers, but I can&#x27;t help but feel that it doesn&#x27;t necessarily help drivers if the volume of rides drop significantly as they get more expensive due to regulations.<p>I&#x27;ve noticed most commentary around this topic tend to skirt this issue. What is a sensible response to this?
评论 #28254061 未加载
WheelsAtLargealmost 4 years ago
Uber, and all, will just rewrite the prop and try again. Gig work is here to stay. They just have to figuerout how to make it work for all.<p>I doubt the legislature will get its way or that Uber will get their way either. A few years from now a middle ground will be found. Gig work works at some level since both workers and customers want it. Uber just took a bigger bite than it should have this round.<p>Also, this issue will end up at the California supreme court level so this is just the first round of many.
评论 #28253877 未加载
评论 #28255772 未加载
评论 #28253893 未加载
lsiebertover 3 years ago
Let me break this down based on my understanding after reading the opinion and the law. I am not a lawyer.<p>From the judge&#x27;s opinion<p>&quot;The Court finds that Section 7451 is unconstitutional because it limits the power of a future legislature to define app-based drivers as workers subject to workers’ compensation law....<p>Because Section 7451 is not severable from the remainder of the statute, the Court finds that the entirety of Proposition 22 is unenforceable.<p>The petition is therefore GRANTED.&quot;<p>Why is that?<p>7451 says that workers are independent contractors, but per the Judge&#x27;s ruling:<p>&quot;The California Constitution vests in the Legislature the “plenary power, unlimited by any provision of this Constitution, to create, and enforce a complete system of workers’ compensation.” (Cal. Const. art. XIV, § 4)<p>Since that specific enumerated power conflicts with the more general ballot initiative rule in the constitution regarding the legislature not being able to amend ballot initiative passed laws, that section of the law is unconstitutional. (See Scalia&#x27;s Canons of Construction, The Specific&#x2F;General Canon)<p>Since Prop 22 explicitly said if that section is invalid the whole law is invalid (7467 (b)) the whole law is thus invalid.<p>This is likely to be appealed and stayed upon appeal so it&#x27;s not taking effect immediately.<p>Judge&#x27;s opinion (provided by lwf in a comment): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos-order" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos...</a><p>Text of prop 22: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov&#x2F;2020&#x2F;general&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;topl-prop22.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vig.cdn.sos.ca.gov&#x2F;2020&#x2F;general&#x2F;pdf&#x2F;topl-prop22.pdf</a>
nostreboredalmost 4 years ago
For others outside of California, this is the measure that allowed Uber and Lyft to classify workers as independent contractors
评论 #28253469 未加载
ummonkalmost 4 years ago
This is good. AB5 needs to be scrapped altogether, rather than merely adding additional carveouts for sufficiently large fields of work.
dragonwriteralmost 4 years ago
Note that “Superior Court” is a first-level trial court; there is an opportunity for appeal of right to the Court of Appeal and potentially a discretionary appeal to the State Supreme Court before this is final.
samspencalmost 4 years ago
Not a CA resident here, but I&#x27;m trying to understand Prop 22: does it require all gig companies <i>except</i> Uber and Lyft to &quot;provide a health care subsidy and wage floor&quot;?<p>So with this ruling, Uber and Lyft will start providing benefits to their drivers similar to what all other gig companies are doing?
评论 #28253240 未加载
评论 #28253343 未加载
评论 #28253265 未加载
评论 #28253222 未加载
评论 #28253673 未加载
lwfalmost 4 years ago
Link to opinion: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos-order" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos...</a><p>The key bits:<p>&gt; The Court finds that Section 7431 is unconstitutional because it limits the power of a future legislature to define app-based drivers as workers subject to workers’ compensation law.<p>This was the key section of prop 22 which defined app-based service providers as non-employees.<p>&gt; The Court finds that Section 7465, subdivision (¢)(4) is unconstitutional because it defines unrelated legislation asan “amendment” and is not germane to Proposition 22&#x27;s stated “theme, purpose, or subject.”<p>This was the section that imposed a 7&#x2F;8ths requirement on modification to the statute.
BrianOnHNover 3 years ago
What&#x27;s the non-human cost to operate Uber? Server costs, customer service people (maybe?)<p>I&#x27;d be interested to see what the breakdown is on how fees collected are spent. If it is mostly ROI for capital invested then that&#x27;s the problem.<p>Not a crypto bull, but this would be a great opportunity for a DAO&#x2F;smart contract. Act as a backend, fees collected go directly to operations. Maybe a <i>diminishing</i> royalty is collected by the creators.<p>Most the time I spend $10 for a five minute ride, and often even see the person before me get dropped off. There&#x27;s no way that the &quot;ultra cheap&quot; rates being paid couldn&#x27;t actually provide a decent wage, given that capital isn&#x27;t chopping off their lions share.
seanyalmost 4 years ago
Can we work on getting rid of AB5 instead?
评论 #28253834 未加载
评论 #28253924 未加载
balozialmost 4 years ago
Regardless of the merits of arguments before the court, or the soundness of the ruling, I fear that this development will only serve to undermine California voters&#x27; faith in the judiciary and&#x2F;or the ballot initiative process.
评论 #28253812 未加载
评论 #28254100 未加载
wheresmycraisinalmost 4 years ago
So, are uber and lyft drivers suddenly employees now, until an appellate court issues a preliminary injunction or something?
mrfusionalmost 4 years ago
Doesn’t any proposition limit the power of a future legislature?
评论 #28254310 未加载
评论 #28254004 未加载
评论 #28253629 未加载
mlindnerover 3 years ago
How about we just repeal the damn law in the first place rather than adding all this stuff on top. That was my issue with Prop 22. The original law it was layering on top of is faulty from the get go and needs to get repealed. The person who proposed it is an utter asshole to boot (her twitter is full of personal fiery attacks on other people and she can&#x27;t take criticism)
jefftkalmost 4 years ago
<i>Alameda County Superior Court Judge Frank Roesch wrote Proposition 22 is unconstitutional because “it limits the power of a future Legislature to define app-based drivers as workers subject to workers’ compensation law.” That makes the entire ballot measure unenforceable, Roesch said. ... It’s likely the ruling gets appealed.</i>
评论 #28253354 未加载
DannyBeealmost 4 years ago
Here is the order: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos-order" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21046832-castellanos...</a><p>Things to know:<p>1. This was a referendum <i>statute</i> and not a referendum amendment.<p>2. referendum statutes can&#x27;t normally be amended by the legislature directly, but they can submit it back to the voters by normal majority vote on the legislation&#x2F;etc. The referendums can, if they want, add ways for the legislature to amend it without going back to the voters.<p>3. With that in mind, here are the issues:<p>A. Prop22 inartfully tries to say it can only be amended by 7&#x2F;8th vote of the legislature. That would, normally, be unconstitutional- the constitution requires allowing the majority vote + submit back to voters. To avoid this, the court has (IMHO, correctly) interpreted this to be just be a way to amend the statute without going back to the voters, rather than the only way to amend it at all. It also tries to change the publication rules for any possible amendments (which is also not allowed to do to the majority vote path, and so this is severed and only applies to the 7&#x2F;8th path)<p>B. California has a single subject rule on ballot amendments. This statute has a stated subject&#x2F;purpose (too long to quote). That purpose&#x2F;subject does not include collective bargaining, even a little. It does not talk, in any part of the statute, about collective bargaining.<p>At the very end, after just about all meaningful text it attempts to limit collective bargaining it in a super-odd way. It says anything dealing with collective bargaining is considered an amendment to the statue and is explicitly subject it to the 7&#x2F;8th rule to pass it . By defining anything related to collective bargaining as an amendment, it causes itself to run afoul of the single subject rule - it&#x27;s entirely unrelated to anything in the statute.<p>It also can&#x27;t subject it <i>only</i> to the 7&#x2F;8th rule as it attempts to do, but as above, that would normally be reinterpreted by the court to say &quot;7&#x2F;8th rule or submitting back to voters&quot;.<p>The court severed this provision, which seems right.<p>C. Even if the above issue didn&#x27;t exist, the actual constitution (remember, this is not an amendment) provides that the Legislature shall have the power to create worker&#x27;s compensation laws “unlimited by any provision of this Constitution”. So, the statute&#x27;s attempt to limit workers comp also fails. The statute, for some reason, also says this provision may not be severed, so if it is held unconstitutional, like here, the entire statute is struck down.<p>On appeal, B will be argued about to death because the single subject rule is easily twistable. But since it is severable, i think a court will sever it in the end.<p>C will have a flat yes&#x2F;no ruling - either it&#x27;s usurping power the legislature has (without being an amendment) or it&#x27;s not. On its face, it&#x27;s hard to see how you can successfully argue it&#x27;s not. The wording in the california constitution is pretty strong. The superior court takes the reasonable position that an amendment-by-ballot could change workers comp because it can overrule the constitutional provision, but that an statute-by-ballot cannot. It would take some mental gymnastics to uphold this part.
gjsman-1000over 3 years ago
Well... Add that to the list of reasons why California used to be great and increasingly sucks.
JudgePenitentover 3 years ago
This is a rideshare capital vs opponent capital legal battle. Any claims to doing this for the drivers is absurd; different drivers want different things, and for that, you would have to design an environment whereby a driver can be either freelance or employee. Some drivers want the flexibility, and genuinely like the way the system works today. Some want security, a guaranteed hourly wage, as they need a consistent income. Some want healthcare, etc. The legal straightjacket is convenient for tax purposes but little else.<p>The idea that a driver can only be one or the other is of course the capitalists convenience. Having the law back them up is the goal of the shareholder- hence this war- but the claims that drivers want it one way or the other is silly.<p>As to the claim that it has to be one way or the other because of the legal environment (taxes etc) and the rigidity in work classifications, then a different bureaucracy is in order, a conversation which is conveniently ignored in this public debate.
somewhereoutthover 3 years ago
Referenda &#x27;A Device of Dictators and Demagogues&#x27; - Margaret Thatcher.<p>We had one in the UK recently that has pretty much wrecked the country. It would appear that California (and other states?) do this sort of thing all the time!
google234123almost 4 years ago
So, what is the point of a ballot measure or referendum then?
评论 #28253510 未加载
myWindoonnalmost 4 years ago
Whatever happened to Nathan Fielder&#x27;s attempt to unionize Uber? Is that still going?
评论 #28253573 未加载
MiguelX413almost 4 years ago
Epic
评论 #28253590 未加载
justinzollarsalmost 4 years ago
whats the point of voting? Almost 60% of Californians supported this measure.
评论 #28253760 未加载
评论 #28254009 未加载
seibeljalmost 4 years ago
Ride firms ultimately forced to pay more for labor. Less drivers total and more expensive rides. Poorer areas stop getting service. Stock prices fall. Not a big deal if you don’t care about ride share transportation. If you actually like it then it costs more and gives less.<p>This website is full of rich techies so won’t affect us. However will affect less well-off people negatively.
评论 #28253695 未加载
评论 #28253722 未加载