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Googlespeak – How Google limits thought about antitrust

954 pointsby cyrusshepardalmost 4 years ago

46 comments

tytsoalmost 4 years ago
When I was at IBM 15 years ago, IBM was far from being a monopoly, since there were plenty of competitors in the hardware space (HP, Sun, Dell, etc) and in the software space (Oracle, SAP, etc.) and in the Services space (Accenture, PwC, KPMG, etc.) employees still had to complete annual legal training that was very similar to what was described in the post.<p>Any large company with half-way competent legal counsel is going to tell their employees not to say, &quot;our goal is to crush our competitors, dominate the market, and hear the lamentation of their women.&quot; Instead they will tell their employees to focus on making life better for their customers. It&#x27;s a much healthier way for product managers to focus, and what you might do if the goal is &quot;crush&#x2F;dominate the competition&quot; is *not* the same than if the goal is delight the customer. So it&#x27;s not just a messaging strategy to prevent embarassing e-mails from coming out at trial; it&#x27;s a business strategy, too.
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deathanatosalmost 4 years ago
This is such an uncharitable interpretation of the training materials. The material there is not saying &quot;if you want to speak about things that raise antitrust concerns, use this coded language&quot;, it&#x27;s saying &quot;don&#x27;t do these things, and just focus on building a good product&quot;.<p>Like, the thing here that really boggles my mind: if the training materials had said <i>literally the exact opposite</i> of what they do: &quot;crush the competition, find ways to prevent competitors from competing fairly with us&quot; etc. — someone like the author would write an article vilifying them. (And rightly so.) So the company instead says &quot;focus on our product; competition is good and okay&quot; and … they&#x27;re vilified for it. Damned if they do, damned if they don&#x27;t.<p>By this article&#x27;s twisted logic, any company focused on their product is just engaging in newspeak for thinly veiled anti-competitive behavior. Or is it just if Google does it?<p>(It kills me to argue this, since I think normally these threads&#x2F;articles spawn good debate about the size and scope of FAANG. But… this one is ridiculous.)
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skybrianalmost 4 years ago
This is about being careful what you put in writing, because the discovery process for lawsuits will find your carelessly written email and opposing lawyers will take it out of context, and do you want to end up in court years later explaining what you meant?<p>Google has so many employees that they need training to limit the damage from random chatter and speculation.<p>It’s more cumbersome to have to talk about some things via video chat, but it’s not about limiting thought.
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AlbertCoryalmost 4 years ago
I was in Google Ads from 2008-2010. At that time, there was a limit of 3 top ads and 8 right-hand-side ads. The top ads generated the vast bulk of the revenue.<p>They were also in blue or yellow (I forget which, but one was WAY more lucrative than the other!) so it was very easy for the user to distinguish an ad from a search result.<p>I just did the canonical $$$ search &quot;flowers&quot; on my Macbook. The entire first page was ads and they are not colored anymore (although they do say &quot;Ad&quot;). There is also a Maps snippet which shows where I can buy flowers.<p>What happened? Well, I can guess: they did experiments, and not coloring the ads produced more revenue. I know from talking to ordinary users that they often say proudly &quot;I never click on ads!&quot; Now they do.
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dlesliealmost 4 years ago
While looking at the tables of good versus bad phrasing I couldn&#x27;t shake the feeling that I was reading something not so dissimilar to how leaders of organized crime historically avoided prosecution. By not naming the crime, by speaking about it indirectly and with softer language, they hoped to invigorate doubt in a hypothetical jury.<p>It&#x27;s a method of avoiding responsibility oft credited to Henry II, who stated off-hand &quot;Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_turbulent_priest%3F" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Will_no_one_rid_me_of_this_tur...</a>
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snarf21almost 4 years ago
It is far more widespread than an interaction with a Google employee. The phenomenon is everywhere. It was distilled perfectly by Upton Sinclair quite a while ago: “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!”
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ec109685almost 4 years ago
&gt;It’s difficult to imagine any new flight search, no matter how innovative, winning today with Google acting as the web’s gatekeeper.<p>Google results are dominated by the Expedia Group (a conglomerate of tons of different brands: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.expediagroup.com&#x2F;home&#x2F;default.aspx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.expediagroup.com&#x2F;home&#x2F;default.aspx</a>). While Google&#x27;s practices have definitely hurt, it&#x27;s a <i>huge</i> business, and probably a larger reason why a new flight search competitor can&#x27;t get off the ground.<p>As a customer, it&#x27;s annoying there isn&#x27;t more diversity anymore. Generic travel searches are dominated by these brands, plus articles full of affiliate links that are hard to trust.
ekianjoalmost 4 years ago
Thats not Googlespeak. Thats legal protection. Whenever a company is open to investigation you can bet emails will be searched and if something suggesting something borderline illegal is written there it can be used against you. A lot of companiea give such trainings to their employees.
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greatgibalmost 4 years ago
I was a direct witness of such a brain washing case a few years ago.<p>Google was about to release a new version of Android or of Nexus phones. (I don&#x27;t remember the exact details)<p>And there was an insider leak, so the details of the innovation were published on internet a few days before the official announcement.<p>Leaks are now very common and often organized by companies, but a few years ago it was not yet the case.<p>I had a lunch with a few people including some Google engineers a few days after the leak. A discussion started about this topic, and the googlers said things like: &quot;what a scandal the leak, we hate so much the person that did that, that we would have like to have him dead. If anyone in the company find who he his, we would seriously punch his face&quot;.<p>I was surprised, because, this was just a leak of the features, same content has what would have been disclosed in the PR announcement. Personally I would be happy that people have so much interest in my product that they spontaneously reshare early details about it. I did not see where the offense was for some random engineers of the company.<p>So, I asked them, and they told me that they felt that the insider &quot;stole their announcement of their product&quot;.<p>I told them that it is ridiculous, because as an engineer you should like that your product is known, and that people hear and talk about it. But it should personally make no difference if the feature list&#x2F;preview is published a few days earlier by a leak instead of by a random PR guy or by a big head of the company.<p>The only offended one might be the big head and the PR&#x2F;marketing guys that had their plan ruined, but not common Google software engineer salarymen.<p>But the Googlers were not able to understand this idea, and then, they became hostile to me for the rest of the lunch for even having suggested that their feeling might not be justified.<p>So then I realized that they were brain washed by the company internal communication to feel that anything annoying for Google was bad for them personally!<p>In the exact same way that there are dictator led countries were most of the inhabitants are blindly following whatever the dictator says is the truth!
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ineedasernamealmost 4 years ago
For a more complete look at the concept that linguistic structure &amp; lexicon set the boundaries of thought, see the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis [0]. Spoiler alert: the &quot;strong&quot; version doesn&#x27;t quite hold up under experimental scrutiny, but the &quot;light&quot; version has some legs.<p>As a bonus, follow-up with George Lakoff&#x27;s <i>Metaphors we Live By</i>.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Linguistic_relativity" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Linguistic_relativity</a>
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bigcorp-slavealmost 4 years ago
Every large company has these trainings. I personally have worked at multiple companies with very similar trainings.<p>With thousands of employees, a company can’t take the risk that some random college hire mouths off over Slack on something they don’t know anything about and it shows up in discovery for something in the future and is used as evidence of planned malfeasance on the part of the company. I know we don’t like Google but this is not a Google thing, it’s a “opposing lawyers will take speculation from random low level engineers wildly out of context and judges and juries are too dumb to put it in context” thing.
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credditalmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s hilarious to me that someone thinks this is about controlling thought and not a defensive legal maneuver.
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ryankupynalmost 4 years ago
I think that a lot of this makes sense from Google&#x27;s legal perspective, where antitrust litigation is a constant consideration and any internal document mentioning market share or competitors could be used against them.<p>I&#x27;m sure that there is a great deal of discussion about potential anticompetitive issues within Google and with their outside counsel, but in a context where legal privilege protects against disclosure.
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hospadaralmost 4 years ago
On a literary note: another great sci-fi reference point is Samuel Delaney&#x27;s &quot;Babel 17&quot; - the hook is that a government creates a language that enables extreme thought capabilities, but prevents you from conceptualizing the opposing government as anything but an enemy.
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inglor_czover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t particularly like Google, but it is obvious that they are in the &quot;Everything you say may be used against you&quot; situation and they cannot simply take the fifth and cut off any communication among employees.<p>If you need to take into account that every single message sent over internal media may be one day combed by hostile investigators for anything that might be considered your wrongdoing, you need to be careful, regardless of your size.
SCUSKUalmost 4 years ago
While I wholeheartedly agree with this article, I can&#x27;t help but think, why would Google or Googlers encourage discussion about anti-trust in the first place? I understand that Google certainly does dominate the market, but can you really blame them for wanting to keep it that way?
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poof131almost 4 years ago
It amazes me that the consumer welfare standard has become so ingrained in legal antitrust. How is a company town, feudalism, or even slavery not the purest endgame of this logic? Own nothing and forever be indebted. “Wow, everything is free for most consumers, I guess we created a great world!” Can we move on to the total welfare standard, please. [1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ftc.gov&#x2F;system&#x2F;files&#x2F;documents&#x2F;public_statements&#x2F;1455663&#x2F;welfare_standard_speech_-_cmr-wilson.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ftc.gov&#x2F;system&#x2F;files&#x2F;documents&#x2F;public_statements...</a>
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JoshTriplettalmost 4 years ago
Forget about &quot;competition&quot; and &quot;who provides the service&quot; for just a moment. (I&#x27;ll return to them below.) I&#x27;m saying all of this as someone who <i>doesn&#x27;t use Google search</i>. I would like to see more competition in search engines. But anyone seeking to work in that space needs to think about how users actually use search engines, and stop thinking in the conceptual model of &quot;finding sites for the given search terms&quot;.<p>&quot;65% of searches don’t result in a click&quot; is a feature. You asked a question, you got the answer to that question. A search engine isn&#x27;t a tool to find sites, it&#x27;s a tool to find information; once upon a time that meant finding a site for that information, but ideally, it means <i>finding the information</i>. Sometimes you might be looking for &quot;a site that has X&quot;, but often you&#x27;re just looking for X. For that matter, 100% of searches via Google Assistant don&#x27;t result in a &quot;click&quot;, because the information has to be digested and presented via a voice interface.<p>It&#x27;s <i>accurate</i> to say that Google is in competition with every site that provides information to users. Anyone in the business of providing information to users needs to treat Google as their competitor.<p>So, yes, a regulator or competitor who speaks in terms of how Google isn&#x27;t driving users to other sites or prioritizing its own sites, and doesn&#x27;t acknowledge that doing so is <i>answering the user&#x27;s question</i>, is indeed speaking a foreign language.<p>If we were in some post-scarcity world, someone trying to help user&#x27;s find information should be taking a very similar approach to Google (or finding something even better), and finding more ways to make information more digestible and presentable this way, and encouraging sites to provide information in a way that can answer questions like this.<p>In today&#x27;s non-post-scarcity world, there is <i>absolutely</i> an anti-competitive issue here. But the problem is that the most efficient and often most useful way to answer a user&#x27;s question may well be <i>incompatible</i> with the &quot;just present links to sites given search terms&quot; model.<p>In seeking to solve that problem, we can&#x27;t start out by preventing people from presenting information in whatever way users find most useful and efficient. We shouldn&#x27;t seek to shoehorn a search engine back into a simple &quot;here are the results for your search terms&quot; model. Any approach that unthinkingly tries to foster competition by <i>breaking</i> the ability to present information in the most useful way possible is rightfully treated as some outside hostile force that&#x27;s destroying something useful.<p>And <i>because</i> so much of the effort to regulate this as an anti-competitive issue has been unthinkingly treating a search engine as nothing more than mapping search terms to outbound site links, that has generated a backlash even <i>outside</i> of Google (for instance, here on HN), from people who see how much value would be destroyed by such an approach.<p>Not all efforts to foster competition have been this unthinking. I&#x27;ve seen proposals that try to introduce the use of APIs to present such information from a variety of sources (e.g. &quot;here&#x27;s the service I prefer to use for flights&#x2F;hotels&#x2F;etc&quot;). I don&#x27;t know if that&#x27;s the <i>right</i> approach, or if it&#x27;s <i>fair</i>, or if it&#x27;s <i>necessary</i>, but it&#x27;s at least closer to the right direction, and it isn&#x27;t <i>destroying</i> useful things like &quot;answering user&#x27;s questions&quot; or &quot;building a useful voice assistant&quot;.
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disillusionedover 3 years ago
My friend has told me that Amazon has much the same _very strict_ limitations on language and messaging around certain terms, especially in any retained messaging. He also mentioned that his unit doesn&#x27;t retain Chimes past 30 days or so, specifically to avoid ever having it used in discovery.
graderjsover 3 years ago
It&#x27;s interesting this language creates a reality where only Google exists. Apart from the legal and &#x27;anti-trust&#x27; aspects, I&#x27;m sure this is useful for creating a sense of manifest destiny, where Google is the only service that people see. I&#x27;m sure that is eventually inevitable, that search becomes like an intelligent agent and there is a single company that provides it. Other people see a future based on individuals granting different AIs permission to mine their personal data in return for personalized services...which would also be an interesting future.<p>But I think we are definitely headed for a single-massive company providing all intelligent search at least for a time. It just seems like that will be the best way to get the best version of that product, until we actually know what that product really is.<p>That AI search company may not be Google, and if not that would be a fascinating story to see how such a player emerged as underdog to become the dominant search provider in a Google-dominated world. Exciting times!
hnbadalmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s odd to see so many comments siding with Google on this one considering HN historically celebrates small startups &quot;disrupting&quot; existing markets and sides against big monopolists and Google especially.<p>I wonder if this is a consequence of early-stage underdog startups having grown to significant sizes over time (or being bought out by the more established competitors) and loyalties continuing to align with those companies rather than their original positions.<p>Maybe the US&#x27;s political polarization of the discourse around regulating &quot;big tech&quot; (with the anti-regulation Republicans insisting on tight regulations and the &quot;pro-regulation&quot; Democrats siding against it in response) is also having an effect.<p>I don&#x27;t know when I last saw so many people implicitly arguing Google is not acting anti-competitively or that antitrust laws are just a pesky legal technicality that is moral and just to guard against by shaping your company&#x27;s internal communication about your market dominance.
benatkinalmost 4 years ago
It can get pretty nasty. Last year @jaffathecake who works at Google called @getify&#x27;s &quot;language&quot; Trump-like for trying to raise the alarm about Chrome looking at hiding the path from the URL bar until the URL bar is focused, like Safari does. The original tweet is deleted, so you can&#x27;t check whether it was &quot;sowing division&quot;, but it wasn&#x27;t IMO.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jaffathecake&#x2F;status&#x2F;1275030931577896962" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;jaffathecake&#x2F;status&#x2F;1275030931577896962</a><p>Edit: This is very similar to how Google used their blog to criticize Rand Fishkin, as mentioned in the article. Here&#x27;s the official post from Google, which reads like a personal attack: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.google&#x2F;products&#x2F;search&#x2F;google-search-sends-more-traffic-open-web-every-year&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;blog.google&#x2F;products&#x2F;search&#x2F;google-search-sends-more...</a>
Animatsalmost 4 years ago
The real issue is redefining the market. This is common in antitrust cases.<p>I could see an antitrust decision that forced Google to sell off the third-party ad, ad tracking, video streaming, email, messaging, and phone businesses, while retaining the search and search ad business. Then at least they couldn&#x27;t use one monopoly to promote others.
warmfuzzykittenover 3 years ago
I have a problem getting to his point when the examples he shows at the start are so unlike what I see when I enter the same search phrases.<p>&quot;COVID-19 trends in Palm Beach&quot; didn&#x27;t bring up any hotel listings. Instead I get statistics, cases, and a map of cases from the New York Times, and after that a list of ordinary links.<p>&quot;the walking dead season 11&quot; showed an ad from AMCPlus.com, which is fairly understandable since it&#x27;s totally on point, followed by regular links, the first to wikipedia.<p>I know that what individuals see is customized to some extent, but I can&#x27;t imagine what sort of search history he has that would get the results he shows.<p>If his examples are not typical, it seems possible his premise is flawed.
randomperson_24almost 4 years ago
It is also not just Google. Google atleast curates the content, but has anyone used MSN or Edge (that comes with Windows)?<p>It has all news stories copied word to word from other news websites. Its worse than AMP. The publication name is not mentioned till the end of the page.
indiantinkerover 3 years ago
Longtime ago, I made a small installation [1] at an HCI conf about the same larger issue. Increasing Search Engines seem to train people by judging their inherent confirmation bias. I think many recommendation engines also try to do the same to a lower extend by keep the &#x27;subject&#x27; happy. It was interesting to see how designers from leading companies present never thought their work actually makes people live in bubbles and they always think it was &#x27;UX friendly&#x27;.<p>[1] <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;rohitg.in&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;03&#x2F;whowe&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;rohitg.in&#x2F;2017&#x2F;09&#x2F;03&#x2F;whowe&#x2F;</a>
loopionalmost 4 years ago
When he mention the bad word « market » and « competitors » this is also the case at PayPal on our compliance program. But this is under Anti-Bribery program. It’s just to avoid having proof against you.
ilakshalmost 4 years ago
No one is going to appreciate this but I will say it anyway just because I think it&#x27;s important and maybe one person will get it.<p>The solution to these type of technopolies is not better laws or lawsuits. The solution is technical. It&#x27;s about creating protocols for decentralized systems.<p>Now, am I saying that it&#x27;s obvious or easy to replace Google with decentralized systems? Of course not. But what I hope people will eventually realize is that open source distributed protocols are in fact extremely powerful and perfect for creating better public online commons.
bickeringyokelalmost 4 years ago
How large a market share does a company need to be a monopoly? Search seems like more of an oligopoly, is there a legal definition of market size for something to be a monopoly or is it more of a case by case thing?<p>I&#x27;d say youtube is probably the closest thing they have to a monopoly, but even then there&#x27;s tiktok, ig&#x2F;Facebook etc. Those probably count as video &quot;creator&quot; platforms.
jewelryalmost 4 years ago
A lot of discussion of 1984 here in US. The truth is most of the people here have no idea of what 1984 looks like, unless they&#x27;ve lived in China for more than 5 years. That&#x27;s the combination of money, power and brain power to lock the intelligence and wash the brains.
streamofdigitsalmost 4 years ago
monopolies, conglomerates, cartels, monocultures, oligarchies, fragility, lack of diversity, lack of options, lack of checks and balances, inequity...<p>any way you slice it this cluster of words represents a way of organizing society that is suboptimal and detrimental. anything that can be done by one entity can be done better by multiple competing entities if they are forced to operate in a coopetitive environment.<p>nobody should have to &quot;prove&quot; anything in the messy specific circumstances of particular industries and companies. society and its economic&#x2F;political organization should have automatic triggers and disincentives that would prohibit the formation of such structures in the first place.
ummonkalmost 4 years ago
It’s not just legal risk but PR risk as well it’s hat they’re trying to avoid. Notice how the press often gets its hands on and makes a big deal out of shocking comments made by a few random employees in a company employing tens of thousands.
a_imhoover 3 years ago
The other way around, classic &#x27;It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it&#x27;. Googlespeak can be a crutch in the process, but I don&#x27;t think it is the root cause.
eunoiaalmost 4 years ago
Sometimes I wonder how much of the push against remote work from certain large companies comes down to the increased discoverability (in the legal sense) of employee communications over Slack&#x2F;Teams&#x2F;etc vs in person...
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harryfalmost 4 years ago
Not directly related but I have a theory that Google has shaped public opinion online - and been very good at it- in a couple of instances when there was a risk to their business.<p>The first was net neutrality, where you found various think tanks doing stuff like YouTube explaining why it’s bad to lose net neutrality. Once I dug into who was funding one of those think tanks and it looked a lot like Google. Given the % of bandwidth that is people watching YouTube, Google had potentially some big bills coming their way with the loss of net neutrality.<p>The other one is Kevin Rudd in Australia taking on Rupert Murdoch while Google is at risk of having to share ad revenue on news with NewsCorp. I haven’t researched this much but the question is simply who’s funding Kevin Rudd to fight Murdoch.
realjohngalmost 4 years ago
You know you&#x27;re good when you get to top of HN with polar opposite stories: driving the future with waymo and killing the future with monopoly.<p>Somebody should beat Google w features. bing anybody?
NoblePubliusalmost 4 years ago
I was expecting some analysis of what you tweeted to the Google people that was outside their vocabulary.
cblconfederatealmost 4 years ago
Good: Google&#x27;s mission is to sell more ads<p>Bad: Google&#x27;s mission is to organize the world&#x27;s information
bertttlesalmost 4 years ago
&quot;Google’s Growing Antitrust Tsunami&quot; - says it all!
trhwayalmost 4 years ago
Now somebody should make a reverse translation app to produce real meaning behind that BS bingo Googlespeak. And it probably may find the use well beyond the Googlespeak - just look at any business or political PR&#x2F;spin.
jgalt212almost 4 years ago
But are there two groups at Google:<p>Group A: not allowed to talk about monopoly<p>Group B: The group tasked with maintaining the monopoly.
afterburneralmost 4 years ago
&gt; But to the Googlers, it was as if I was speaking another language.<p>I mean, they are literally being paid not to understand.
nixpulvisalmost 4 years ago
If Google would like to return the public investments in the creation of The Web perhaps then and only then should we allow them to destroy it.
echelonalmost 4 years ago
There was a point in time when monopolies weren&#x27;t understood as economic constructs.<p>We&#x27;re in a new era where the Famgopolies are something entirely new with an even greater reach. They&#x27;re all-encapsulating bubbles that ensnare people across all the interactions they perform on a daily basis, then tax every single point of ingress or egress.<p>If they keep growing, the classic <i>Demolition Man</i> scene where everything is Taco Bell will come true. Everything we see, buy, eat, date, or think will come from the Famgopolies.
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clipradiowalletalmost 4 years ago
The author could use another search engine, or put their business efforts(SEO) into a field <i>not</i> dependent on another company(Google) making zero changes to their services. They aren&#x27;t the power company(or another utility), they are a for-profit corporation, behaving in a manner the shareholders of a for-profit corporation expect them to.<p>Or is that...unreasonable?
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CryptoPunkalmost 4 years ago
This sort of reminds me of how the public sector establishment limits the acceptable language around cultural flashpoints, like gender identity.<p>I was told that using the term &quot;biological female&quot; was transphobic in the context of gender identity, and the individual in question was pressing the issue to the point where I thought there was a reasonable possibility I would be banned from the forum if I persisted. I was told I have to use cis-female. But that not only limits the expressive efficacy of my statement, by substituting a well known term with one that a significant fraction of the population does not know, it also, under the guise of fighting diminution of the marginalized, narrows the concept of a biological female, with the end goal clearly to be to effect a change in the definition of &quot;female&quot; itself.<p>We see this same kind of language narrowing in the corporate world, with Google&#x27;s rules on how to discuss issues relevant to monopoly, but I suspect this is defensive, and motivated by the legal threat of anti-trust action, as such language used by employees can directly impact the outcome of an anti-trust trial.