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The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks

675 pointsby shivbhattalmost 4 years ago

45 comments

pessimizeralmost 4 years ago
The reason the banks, and through the banks OnlyFans, attack sex is <i>because</i> they are accountable, and don&#x27;t wish to take risks unless they are very profitable risks.<p>The real danger of platforms and banks is how happy they are to censor for the government, or simply the loudest, richest mouth, in order to keep the profit flowing. If you want to fix it, you put in legal protections for people to do business, rather than this informal and&#x2F;or ad hoc regulation through the shifting influence and agendas of arbitrary special interest groups.<p>&gt; The financial and tech industries’ prudishness is unfortunately increasingly reflected in government policy, typically under the guise of protecting children and other vulnerable communities.<p>This is the Guardian getting causation extremely wrong.
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saddlerustlealmost 4 years ago
This article completely misses the causes of the rule changes. Banks and payment processes pushed new rules <i>because</i> they were being held accountable. The changes were all implemented in response to hugely influential NYT opinion piece on PornHub in December [1] that specifically called out payment processors, and preempted a BBC investigation into OnlyFans that was hinted to do the same [2].<p>The conversation here should about how rulemaking via media outrage is a problem given the public has conflicting morals.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;04&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;pornhub-rape-trafficking.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2020&#x2F;12&#x2F;04&#x2F;opinion&#x2F;sunday&#x2F;pornhub-ra...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-58255865" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.bbc.co.uk&#x2F;news&#x2F;uk-58255865</a>
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recursivedoubtsalmost 4 years ago
The Guardian has no problem with the unaccountable power of platforms and banks.<p>The Guardian merely has a problem with this particular application of it.
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theelous3almost 4 years ago
As far as I was aware, the main reason banks don&#x27;t want to deal with porn is the huge rate of chargebacks that occur.<p>Post nut clarity is apparently a financial problem.
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dalbasalalmost 4 years ago
I suspect that &quot;accountability&quot; is a problematic frame. Platforms <i>are</i> the accountability mechanism, increasingly so.<p>As for banks... Everything new is old again. Financial institutions have long been the unofficial regulators, acting more or less in unison with arbitrary decision making power. Tech platforms have just joined the game.
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rob_calmost 4 years ago
Looks like the same thing as wikileaks to me. A combination of bad optics and lawyers getting involved causing a monopolistic supplier to pull their services.<p>Doubt this has much to do with MasterCard attacking the adult industry, it looks more like they want to strongly protect their existing stranglehold on the payment systems. Anything which impacts the way they&#x27;re seen costs them real actually money I&#x27;d bet at their scale.
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sandworm101almost 4 years ago
This issue happens evey decade or so. Last time it was wikileaks and VPNs being delisted by american credit card companies. That popularized cryptocurency and saw bitcoin rise as a censorship-beating payment system. And last week i signed up for a VPNs using my visa without issue. After that they went after filesharing platforms like rapidshare. Now &quot;file lockers&quot; are called &quot;cloud storage&quot; and are a normal online service. This time they are going after porn, an old favorite for US companies to hate. It will again come to nothing.
the-dudealmost 4 years ago
My comment from another thread : <i>Dutch banks terminated accounts of Corona-critics &#x2F; anti-vax&#x27;ers &#x2F; conspiracy nuts ( you choose how to call them ).</i><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28301199" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=28301199</a>
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bitxbitxbitcoinalmost 4 years ago
The centralized financial system is a weak point, and those in power are more than happy to utilize it ala Operation Choke Point.[0]<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Operation_Choke_Point" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Operation_Choke_Point</a>
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Causality1almost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s incredible to me that a private business can discriminate so wantonly while also being fully supported by the FDIC.
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ryeguy_24almost 4 years ago
I was thinking of this just the other day. Just the past few weeks, Apple with CSAM, OnlyFans getting between people and their fans&#x2F;clients. All of these big corporate moves are making me think more and more of decentralization of platforms. Is that coming?
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shadilayalmost 4 years ago
The platform and banks also do not allow the following list items which are varying degrees of legal. There are categories that they crack down upon which are entirely legal and that doesn&#x27;t sit well with me.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Operation_Choke_Point" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Operation_Choke_Point</a> ammunition sales cable box de-scramblers coin dealers credit card schemes credit repair services dating services debt consolidation scams drug paraphernalia escort services firearms sales fireworks sales get rich products government grants home-based charities lifetime guarantees lifetime memberships lottery sales mailing lists&#x2F;personal info money transfer networks online gambling pawn shops payday loans pharmaceutical sales Ponzi schemes Pornography[5] pyramid-type sales racist materials surveillance equipment telemarketing tobacco sales travel clubs
cblconfederatealmost 4 years ago
I believe central-bank digital currencies will solve this problem if they offer transactions that are guaranteed anonymous, unless there is some kind of law enforcement warrant to inspect them. This will be a much more sane and accountable system than the robber baron system of unaccountable gatekeepers.
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harry8almost 4 years ago
This story cannot be discussed in any meaningful way without reference to Wikileaks being fully denied access to payment tech while having been charged with no crime.
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gregdalmost 4 years ago
So do I have to be THAT guy?<p>Fine.<p>Crypto solves this issue...
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unity1001almost 4 years ago
Indeed - Payment companies like Visa and Mastercard enforcing American cultural and religious conservatism on other countries and nations is an illegal situation - per other countries&#x27; laws.<p>These are effectively monopolies. It doesnt matter whether there&#x27;s two of them. If they collectively enforce something onto the people of other countries - like Europe - then they are violating those countries&#x27; laws<p>They must be investigated and regulated accordingly in Europe. American culture and American laws do not apply to Europe.
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stubishalmost 4 years ago
It isn&#x27;t just payment processing. Recently looking at various ethical ETFs, I&#x27;m finding that they all filter out companies for social harm. Which includes porn. Even the green ETFs. So on the first few paragraphs of the disclosure doc you are investing in companies with carbon targets meeting whatever criteria, no fossil fuels, etc. And next find out they are also skipping gambling, guns, tobacco and adult entertainment.
float4almost 4 years ago
&gt; for these corporations this is not a matter of free expression, as it ought to be, but one of morality<p>Is it <i>really</i> true that banks block transactions related to sex work because they are morally against it? Last time I checked banks just want to make money. This is a genuine question by the way.<p>&gt; But just a few weeks in, Twitch shut it down after a change of policy that included, among other things, a ban on visible nipples for those who “present as women”. At a time when societal views around gender and sexuality are in many ways opening up, restrictions on sexual expression [...] feel positively archaic and seem to demonstrate that [...] there remain highly unaccountable powers making decisions about how we express something so utterly natural and human.<p>Although I fully support the free the nipple movement, I can absolutely understand that a streaming platform wants to ban nudity &#x2F; sexual content. Sure, sex is natural and normal, but compared to other human behaviour it is still in a league of its own.
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udaalmost 4 years ago
I actually agree with the term &quot;Unaccountable&quot;. Sure, the banks have their boards and share holders, so do the tech companies.<p>The question is not whether they have internal accountability, but rather if they have public accountability to their declared statements, their stated mission and non-written guarantees given by officials to the public.<p>Many companies like these paint themselves as for-public, while I know and so do you, that is not true, but companies should be held accountable for the image they try to portray, they should be held accountable for public announcements no matter the personnel change.<p>So yes, the platforms and banks have unaccountable power, given by us the public, based on false promises and sales pitches. And we the public have the power to stops that, by making them accountable, but we are the ones who have to do that, by pointing the finger at the root decision makers in those monstrous structures of organizations.
MattGaiseralmost 4 years ago
On the contrary, they are doing it as society will blame them if they do not and they will suffer if it turns out they were involved in child pornography.<p>Banks are not moralists on a crusade. They love making money, but they fear risk. Dealing in the adult industry is a huge public relations and legal risk.
treebotalmost 4 years ago
The strange thing is these problems are already solved through cryptocurrency and decentralized social media. We just need more adoption of decentralized platforms. To me, as I hear about these centralization problems more and more, it seems like decentralized platforms are the future.
IAmEveryonealmost 4 years ago
The decision was reversed due to public pressure, so how unaccountable are they, really?<p>And even before that, the decision was made because they were afraid of public opinion. Otherwise, it doesn’t make sense to refuse to do business that generates revenue. The credit card companies’ puritanical values are a reflection of what they think public opinion, among the public that matters to them, is.<p>They were wrong, or at least outdated, or maybe online sex workers just somehow happen to be better at PR than evangelical christians. But (trying to) follow public opinion isn’t unaccountability, it’s the opposite.
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stacker8888almost 4 years ago
&#x27;The real OnlyFans scandal is the unaccountable power of platforms and banks&#x27;<p>So the fact that there&#x27;s underage children selling porn on OnlyFans isn&#x27;t a scandal? What about the bestiality on sale?
TeMPOraLalmost 4 years ago
There&#x27;s this common meme of blaming anti-sex-work sentiment on some bloc of US Evangelicals who secretly rule the Western economy and politics. Because surely, it couldn&#x27;t be <i>the market</i> speaking out against adult material?<p>Here&#x27;s an alternative hypothesis: between those anti-sex fundamentalist religious groups (Christian or otherwise) and people who absolutely love everything sex-related, there&#x27;s the <i>vast majority</i> of people who find the whole topic uncomfortable to a large degree. Whether they themselves like porn or not (or like, but feel guilty about it[0]), whether they make use of various meatspace sex services or not, they don&#x27;t like being reminded of it. They don&#x27;t like sex being mixed with other areas of life. They might especially not want <i>their kids</i> to be exposed to porn, or to become sex workers.<p>The market caters to majority case. <i>Advertisers</i>, especially, cater to majority. In such hypothetical world (which I posit might just be the real one), the market itself will exert pressure against overt pornography and sex work, and anything that associates itself with it.<p>So, perhaps, there&#x27;s no conspiracy in play - maybe it&#x27;s just the majority getting the things to how they want them to be.<p>(It&#x27;s supposed to be good, right? When some people here complain that technology is increasingly user-hostile and exploitative, there&#x27;s no shortage of arguments saying it&#x27;s not conspiracy, it&#x27;s just the market catering for majority use case. So which way is it?)<p>--<p>EDIT: Three more thoughts.<p>1) Of course, the degree of discomfort with sex topics is a spectrum. But on this spectrum, sex work and hardcore pornography are <i>one of the extremes</i>, not the middle point. Thus, the majority being uncomfortable shouldn&#x27;t be a surprising concept.<p>2) I suspect the same thing happens with drugs. There&#x27;s people who are strongly anti-drug, often on religious basis. Then there&#x27;s people who are for everyone (responsibly) ingesting whatever they want. But in between, there is - in my experience - the majority who&#x27;s afraid. Afraid of health effects, afraid of associations with organized crime, afraid of being shunned by others. And so, even legally selling mind-altering substances (other than alcohol and cigarettes, which have been normalized over centuries) faces the same challenges as sex businesses.<p>3) One can say it&#x27;s religion all way down. Perhaps. Atheism as a cultural phenomenon is a very new thing in the history of humanity. The way people think about sexuality carries thousands of years of baggage. It&#x27;s not going to change overnight, or over investment round, or over election cycle. So I don&#x27;t think you can fix the problems faced by sex workers by telling Visa or Mastercard to chill out.<p>--<p>[0] - There&#x27;s no shortage of pundits - secular, religious, and religious pretending to be scientific - that make careers out of convincing people that porn is bad for you.
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ckdarbyalmost 4 years ago
I&#x27;ve got numerous years of software development working in the high risk space (adult &amp; gambling). With a lot of experience specifically around payment processing for high risk merchants.<p>If anyone has questions feel free to ask and I&#x27;ll answer within reason&#x2F;if I have the answer.<p>Disclaimer: Just solely my own opinions being expressed.
bdcravensalmost 4 years ago
Haven&#x27;t we been seeing this same scandal over the past couple of years? Personally I hate some of the political content that has been deplatformed, but every time one gets shut down, something about that process just doesn&#x27;t sit right with me.
bufalmost 4 years ago
The problem OnlyFans had was they tried to be a legitimately low risk business, but they turned into porn<p>If they started now knowing what they know, how would they get passed the banks and payment processors?<p>How does pornhub or others do it?
elifalmost 4 years ago
&quot;but there are no practical applications of cryptocurrency&quot;
yawaworht1978almost 4 years ago
The banks do this as counter measure to human behavior, eg. Spouse , wife, family finds out about porn payment and then the people deny they have made the payment. Or sometimes an unauthorized family member or friend uses it to pay porn. Another scenario is porn pages doing dodgy monthly subscription charges.<p>All these lead to chargebacks.<p>It&#x27;s simply not worth it for the banks, it&#x27;s bad for everyone involved.<p>It happens more frequently in porn, it has its own risk category, so to say. And most bank regulations are globally similar, so no surprises there. Most transactions have a trajectory between many correspondence banks and none of them wants to deal with chargebacks.<p>Source, worked in chb department.
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bufferoverflowalmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s interesting to see the comments from people who supported Youtube&#x2F;Twitter&#x2F;FB&#x2F;Patreon&#x2F;Visa political censorship, but are suddenly against the porn censorship by the payment same systems.<p>&quot;Rules for thee, but not for me.&quot;
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coding123almost 4 years ago
Isn&#x27;t this what we made btc for
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beebeepkaalmost 4 years ago
What a thread. Right now literally half the posts are greyed out for saying things I don&#x27;t understand in the slightest.<p>Feels like some kind of cultural war is spilling into the site but due to nature of HN, no one is really sharing their actual thoughts on the matter so there&#x27;s a lot of voting based on subtleties.
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amaialmost 4 years ago
There are so many companies out there profiting from selling weapons, destroying the environment and misusing cheap labour in awful dictatorships. But these are issues the banks and payment platforms don‘t seem to care about at all. Where is the NYT article pointing out these issues?
m0lluskalmost 4 years ago
but this happened because payment processors feared being held to account
instagrahamalmost 4 years ago
The real OnlyFans scandal is the friends we made along the way
LudwigNagasenaalmost 4 years ago
When this happened to Gab somehow no one cared.
swileyalmost 4 years ago
Don’t like crypto currency? Stop making it necessary.
throwjd764glugalmost 4 years ago
It affects more than just sex workers. Amren cannot accept Paypal or credit cards due to deplatforming (or even draw attention to this through Youtube or Facebook, as those also banned them), Wikileaks was also financially isolated, and donation websites and payment providers deplatformed Rittenhouse&#x27;s <i>legal defense</i> fundraising.<p>Funny the Guardian didn&#x27;t mention this. Reading their coverage gives the impression deplatforming is limited to moralizing against sex workers.
peterparkouralmost 4 years ago
Silly me, thinking the real scandal is that our daughters are forced to sell nudes to survive.
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throwawayseaalmost 4 years ago
Every business that includes network effects must be regulated as if it is a public agency or utility once it is above a certain size. I don’t think it is useful to debate the threshold to try and find some kind of optimum. Let’s just pick a number, like number of users exceeding 25% of national population, and start there.
temp8964almost 4 years ago
The author has a book &quot;Silicon Values: The Future of Free Speech Under Surveillance Capitalism&quot;<p>Copy a comment here:<p>1.0 out of 5 stars Another pompous elitist advocating free speech for those they agree with<p>Reviewed in the United States on July 19, 2021<p>Looking for yet another elitist advocating for freedoms, but only those they agree with, then this is the book for you. The author complains vociferously about silicon valley enterprises restricting the speech of people and groups she politically agrees with while at the exact same time advocating for the removal of content she finds &quot;offensive&quot;. The author also makes great noise (rightfully) attacking racial and religious bigotry while simultaneously coming across as extremely bigoted towards Jews and anyone with low melanin counts and politically right of Mao. If the author is the voice of freedom of expression and speech in the modern age then we are all doomed.<p>see: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;gp&#x2F;customer-reviews&#x2F;R2MXNOSHCZ1CW1&#x2F;ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;gp&#x2F;customer-reviews&#x2F;R2MXNOSHCZ1CW1&#x2F;re...</a>
monsecchrisalmost 4 years ago
It&#x27;s tremendously easy to be concerned about unaccountable power opposing your own narrative.
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perryizgr8almost 4 years ago
Meh. Everybody was like &quot;private companies can do whatever they like&quot; when parler was censored off the internet. Now why is it a big deal when the same happens to a porn site? Only fans can create their own Visa and Mastercard if they want.
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cenkozanalmost 4 years ago
Why is still the real narrative for this ban is still not around the children on that platform. I can&#x27;t for the life of mine understand why everybody is pulling their own agenda while the real reason for that ban is dragged under the rag. Crazy...
quotemstralmost 4 years ago
This is rich coming from The Guardian, which for years has been in favor of private actors censoring their ideological opponents. Today, when <i>their</i> face is getting eaten by leopards, they&#x27;re worried about &quot;unaccountable power&quot;, but tomorrow, they&#x27;ll be demanding others be kicked off the internet.
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