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Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

69 pointsby midnightcityover 3 years ago

18 comments

rich_sashaover 3 years ago
Sad but true.<p>I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming &quot;you&#x27;re not welcome&quot; message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you&#x27;re at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident).<p>Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you move your life with your partner and kids - are they welcome? Can your parents come and visit? Is it obvious you can access healthcare, schools, social safety net on fair terms? Will you have to justify your whole existence to a reluctant bureaucrat every 12 months?<p>Pre-Brexit, there was always a bit of tension to foreigners in the UK, but then there always is, and London was by far better than most places. But the guarantees of EU membership were so strong that you didn&#x27;t even think about any of these issues.<p>My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don&#x27;t get the impression people are looked down on <i>because</i> they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania.
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klelattiover 3 years ago
The UK Home Office has long had a &#x27;hostile environment&#x27; [1] policy so what&#x27;s changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals).<p>When you combine this approach with administrative incompetence (eg but not limited to Windrush [2] where people who legally had the right to stay were deported to countries where they had never lived as adults) you get some very unpleasant situations indeed.<p>Not surprising at all that all this deters people from moving to the UK.<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Home_Office_hostile_environmen...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Windrush_scandal" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Windrush_scandal</a>
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estsauverover 3 years ago
Small data point: My immigration process in the Netherlands was quite straightforward. It was easy, direct, and surprisingly accommodating as bureaucracies go.<p>Feel free to send me a message for more details if you&#x27;re interested, I&#x27;m happy to refer folks to our law firm etc.
secretsatanover 3 years ago
Speaking as a UK immigrant to Switzerland, even though it is not in the EU, Brexit is just a massive pain. Switzerland has a somewhat strained relationship with the EU, but does have lots of bilateral agreements, like free movement in the Schengen zone, now I&#x27;m not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip.<p>Not to mention job prospects, it used to be Swiss, then EU then the rest of the world for consideration for a job, so I&#x27;ve dropped down a category, which is just an extra incentive for any company to not even consider UK citizens for a job.<p>I have a swiss residence permit, so I&#x27;m better off than most, and I will be going for citizenship in the next year or so.<p>One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences.
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adamcharnockover 3 years ago
Somewhat tangential, but I feel like writing it. I left the UK and moved to Portugal shortly after the Brexit vote. I brought a 6 hectare farm for mid-5-figures (for too big for one person really).<p>The process here was as follows:<p>1 - Get a &#x27;this person really lives here&#x27; document from your local village council office (easy, done in a day)<p>2 - Get a tax number (easy, but may be worth taking an accountant with you, done on the spot)<p>3 - Go to your local city, show both documents, pay €16, they give you your 5-year residency on the spot.<p>Of course this is harder now the UK has actually left the EU, but still perfectly do-able as I understand it.<p>I also think this can be a tricker process in the big cities. Things are generally more chill in the rural area where I am. I.e. the local official had seen my face around the village and was like &#x27;heh, you obviously live here, whatever&#x27;, and didn&#x27;t need to see any title deeds or rental contracts.
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streamofdigitsover 3 years ago
London&#x27;s&#x2F;UK&#x27;s loss is Europe&#x27;s gain. Why should there even be this systemic entrepreneurial brain drain if not for large scale regulatory arbitrage (affecting both the financial side and available business models)<p>There is no doubt that beyond lip service many European countries have sclerotic attitudes towards innovation and even hostility towards aspiring newcomers that &quot;rock the boat&quot; of cozy existing arrangements. But the only legitimate path is to fight for reforms within. Any serious innovation carries risks and ultimately those risks must be understood and accepted by society. Can you even do that from an offshore location?<p>More specifically for the European Union countries (and their aspiration of all sorts of unified digital &#x2F; financial markets) the only meaningful design would be to spread the know-how (and thus acceptance &#x2F; trust) across the region. Instead of looking for the next &quot;winner-takes-all&quot; silicon valley of Europe, think in terms of a strong network of neurons, all being equally required for the brain to function.<p>As for London&#x2F;UK one would only hope that sooner rather than later it will rejoin the European project as an indispensable additional node.
netcanover 3 years ago
So... here in Ireland we&#x27;re pretty open to immigration, both culturally and bureaucratically. English speaking, and Dublin has many of London&#x27;s advantages on a more modest scale.<p>The bottleneck here is housing, office space and such. Ireland, like much of Europe, is change averse. We don&#x27;t build new towns or deal with physical changes to places well, or willingly. Slight upticks in immigration can quickly create big housing shortages.<p>It&#x27;s an option though, and for the most part, we&#x27;re more dedicated to the European project now than before Brexit. It&#x27;s a good place for both UK &amp; EU facing business.<p>It&#x27;s certainly not perfect, but worth considering.
vr46over 3 years ago
Currently a Londoner and having to go through fewer hoops to move to the continent, albeit more than before.<p>There are multiple routes to UK Visas and I have recently discussed with an acquaintance about bringing a business from elsewhere to the UK.<p>The problem, as cited in the article, is that the decision maker may simply Google for similar services and products and refuse. (Source: immigration lawyer I know - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tom-bradford.com&#x2F;innovator-and-start-up-using-an-existing-business-that-you-have-already-started-abroad&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tom-bradford.com&#x2F;innovator-and-start-up-using-an-exi...</a>)<p>So it&#x27;s easier for me to move myself and entire family abroad (TONS of hassle, Brexit or not, what with housing, schools, movers) to go to where the business is than for the business to move here (previously no hassle).<p>A mess. We&#x27;re an ISLAND for goodness&#x27; sakes. How do you think people got here?
latteover 3 years ago
As someone from outside the EU, I had to go through the bureaucratic hassle described in the article to get into the UK.<p>After Brexit, the visa requirements were somewhat relaxed in comparison to what they had been for non-EU citizens. For example, previously to hire a non-EU citizen, an employer had to advertise the vacancy on the market for a certain amount of time to &#x27;prove&#x27; that they cannot fill it with an EU citizen. Now this requirement, if I remember correctly, has been abolished.<p>I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but the differences in immigration rules for different people were too heavily affected by the 20th century war alliances, which have thoroughly influenced the current shape and composition of the EU. I am glad that the playing ground is now somewhat more even.
rvzover 3 years ago
More like <i>&#x27;mission failed successfully&#x27;</i> for the Tech sector in the UK.<p>Many UK tech startups are getting acquired in all directions and the Big Tech companies in the US continue to open more offices in the UK. The biggest casualty of Brexit in the UK tech industry was ARM.<p>The competition for UK tech startups to hire away talent from the big tech companies has become close to impossible. I don&#x27;t think we are going to see a &#x27;Google&#x27; in the UK anytime soon if this continues.
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w_t_payneover 3 years ago
Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family.<p>Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before.<p>This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe.<p>The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and our marriage fell apart. I&#x27;m now back in the UK, but the place seems strangely unfamiliar and hostile to me; and whilst I am still able to work, all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land.
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ghostwriterover 3 years ago
The mentioned &quot;five figures&quot; fees and the language test are peanuts. The journalists are missing the point and do not see that major industries that feed IT sector with new opportunities and contracts (such as entertainment and construction) have already made their mind and have chosen Greater London over EU cities as their primary european hub [1] [2].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44</a> [2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4</a>
the_mitsuhikoover 3 years ago
The challenge with most startup&#x2F;entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don&#x27;t show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better.<p>Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is happy and it will never be over. They are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now so I doubt anyone would touch investor visas.
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aborsyover 3 years ago
Globalization brought winners and losers. It was supposed to lift all boats when enthusiastically developed in 80s and 90s by academics, but it didn’t. And it’s not pretty for a lot of people and societies.<p>I understand the backlash, with Brexit vote and beyond.<p>I don’t like the criticism that UK people receive on choice they made for their society.
beardedmanover 3 years ago
A palpable amount of entitlement coming from the author. I like it (sarcasm).<p>&gt; can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years<p>Well, absolutely.<p>&gt; It has now become a long and challenging obstacle race<p>It has, or is it maybe quite normal?<p>&gt; But it’s not only the UK — the United States has also made it difficult for founders to immigrate and settle in Silicon Valley. Like the new post-Brexit regime in the UK, it’s expensive, comes with a lot of hassle and restrictions and involves sponsoring and numerous recommendations — usually by VCs who have decided to back the company. How is the British situation any different?<p>Welcome to the everyday life of 3rd world nationals &amp; yet another great example of people in the &quot;1st world&quot; are so completely disconnected. How dare they be asked to prove they *can enter a country (again, sarcasm).<p>Sincerely, an amused 3rd worlder living in the 1st world.
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BiteCode_devover 3 years ago
That&#x27;s by design, border control was a selling point of Brexit, as brexiters saw only the bad side of immigration. Which to be fair, is no seamless nor without challenges or cost.<p>I suppose the rational is:<p>• Diminish the friction that multi-culturalism and diversity integration can bring.<p>• Free jobs for the local population.<p>• Having to share less of lands, resources, and infrastructures.<p>And I see the point, but it also fails to take in consideration that:<p>• The UK needs the import&#x2F;export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. They don&#x27;t produce much good internally, and they need to export their service. Brexit added huge barriers to that, not just for people.<p>• The current British population doesn&#x27;t seem very motivated to take back the jobs they delegated to immigration.<p>• Even if it were, it can&#x27;t be instant, since that requires training an entire workforce and sometimes even require permits or certification. Trucks, bus and cabs come to mind. And the inertia will do some damage. The supply chain is already seen glitches, although not as much as I would have expected. They are surprisingly pretty resilient.<p>• The Northern Ireland situation is a ticking bomb. Yeah, immigrates are not just brown people. People have a short memory though, so I suppose IRA stands for nothing nowadays. They may get a nasty reminder that ignored history is doomed to be repeated.<p>• Scotland nationalism has been exacerbated since they were pretty anti-brexit. Also, as an immigrant, scots were pretty welcoming, they need people there.<p>• Big players that needed to stay in Europe are sometimes moving to France or Ireland. So the promised jobs have to take that in consideration.<p>• The UK has an aging population, with a 0.53% growth rate, and that was when compensated by immigration.<p>• The UK education system sucks. People think Oxford and Cambridge, but the reality is more Leeds Metropolitan. I&#x27;ve studied there, and it&#x27;s not going to be easy to find qualified workers only in the island.<p>• The UK managed to negotiate a very privileged deal inside the UE. It had most of the advantages, and way less of the down sides that other members. This deal is dead now, they have the worst of all worlds. So even if they get some benefits, the cost may be huge.<p>• France and the UK never really liked each other. The UE brings peace. But now, all bets are off. Also, no more bonding program such as Erasmus to bring future generation together. And good luck to make you BSC valued outside of the UK. And I guarantee the already little patience we had for the retired brits in the South of France that never try to learn proper France will not hold forever now that we are not bros.<p>• All that in the middle of covid. Not their fault, but damn, that&#x27;s a terrible timing.
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biscotte_over 3 years ago
Immigration was not the main reason of voting Brexit. UKIP is not 51% of the UK electorate. I am surprised to see that, years after that vote, there are still gross misinformation circulating around it.
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mooglyover 3 years ago
&gt; demands that are almost impossible to meet (can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?)<p>Yes, easily. That&#x27;s some hyperbolic braggadocio. If you&#x27;re a maniacal globetrotter, sure, I can see it being annoying or maybe even difficult, but &quot;almost impossible&quot;? Get a grip.
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