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Court issues permanent injunction in Epic vs. Apple case

1420 pointsby freddierover 3 years ago

96 comments

sudhirjover 3 years ago
Think Apple has already seen the writing on the wall - both S. Korea &amp; the US are now probably going to push back against the IAP restrictions, and they can &#x2F; should do a couple of things, which might actually increase revenue.<p>1. Cut down the IAP commission to 15% for everyone. 2. Cut down the commission to 5% for those who pay for a Business Account, say at $5,000 a year.<p>The thing is no customer wants to use any company&#x27;s half-assed bug-riddled purchase or subscription system. Every iOS and macOS user will prefer to use the Apple system. All Apple has to do is to make the rates competitive enough, that after considering building their own purchases system, factoring in sales tax and VAT, most developers will happily just opt for Apple&#x27;s system if the rates make sense. Many people are putting up with 30% already — bringing the rates down to something reasonable with an upgrade path to put them on par with payment processors like Stripe (with VAT and Billing and Radar) or Paddle will just increase revenues for them.<p>The moment they drop rates and ease restrictions apps that are not being built because of these rules will get built, and these apps will gladly pay the market rate of 5% to 10% for a full service payments system.
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yurishimoover 3 years ago
I&#x27;m really happy to see this moving forward, but I loathe the potential future landscape. Every fortune 500 is going to immediately pivot to their own IAP options which will make my life harder compared to Apple Pay.<p>I&#x27;m hoping with this movement, tools like Stripe&#x2F;Paddle will develop some better IAP flows to make it as easy as possible. Adding my card information to 50 different in-app wallets does not sound appealing to me, despite the win for consumers and developers.<p>I guess what I&#x27;m trying to say, is that it&#x27;s unfortunate we have to make a tradeoff at all.<p>Hopefully, this move will put downward pressure on Apple&#x27;s payment infrastructure that incentivizes devs to keep using Apple payments because it&#x27;s the same fee structure as whatever 3rd party they might move towards.
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cletusover 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve been saying this for years now: this is why Apple should&#x27;ve ushered in lower commissions on larger publishers themselves because otherwise a court, a regulatory authority or a legislature was ultimately going to do it for them.<p>And you&#x27;re almost always better off making that change yourself.<p>Big publishers have their own payment processing pipelines. Apple&#x27;s is just extra overhead. Smaller publishers still (IMHO) can see a lot of benefit from Apple&#x27;s 30% cut. It&#x27;s those large publishers who are most likely to challenge your rules in court or lobby against you.<p>If the very largest publishers were paying 10% as a Preferred Partner instead of 30%, they would be a lot less willing to challenge the status quo when they might lose that privilege.<p>We&#x27;ve already have ridiculous workarounds for Apple&#x27;s policies here like how you can bypass it to buy directly from Amazon through the app for physical goods. The carve out for digital goods is and was always a tortured post facto justification.<p>Where once the 30% cut funded the App Store (when it was small). It&#x27;s clearly transitioned to being a massive profit center and Apple executives couldn&#x27;t see past the short term revenue to see the writing on the wall. Woops.
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OrvalWintermuteover 3 years ago
Personally, I am surprised at all the anti-competitive actions Apple has been able to get away with over the years:<p>Bundling the OS with hardware<p>Enforcing an App store<p>Dictating&#x2F;Castrating Browser on mobile<p>And the list goes on.<p>I&#x27;m not saying this as a ding on Apple products, because I genuinely appreciate them, but I think at the same time Apple has resorted to creating roadblocks rather than innovating.
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testfrequencyover 3 years ago
I believe people are over conflating the &quot;friction&quot; involved with using an outside payment system (such as Stripe or PayPal). Apple ID&#x27;s already allow you to attach your PayPal account as primary funding...this is just giving developers that direct choice now.<p>PayPal, you confirm checkout total, login to paypal, confirm subscription or price. Done.<p>Stripe, you can use their standard checkout page, autofill your card info, or just use Apple Pay to confirm the subscription&#x2F;item, pay. Done.<p>What&#x27;s changed is just giving developers that flexibility. Ultimately saving them money, they can hire more devs, and make their products hopefully cheaper (and better).<p>Most consumers will still have no idea that their checkout is not happening with Apple, and it&#x27;s happening elsewhere (aside from PayPal Checkout being obvious with their checkout&#x2F;login flow).<p>Apple could absolutely adapt their native subscriptions SDK to support the status of a third-party app, though I doubt they ever would. They tried to do this with streaming services (HBO, Netflix, etc.), but they shut this down recently
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danShumwayover 3 years ago
This is somewhat surprising to me. I thought Epic had a reasonable chance of getting an eventual win on some points, or in getting enough attention that regulators stepped in. I also thought Apple had a pretty decent chance of winning.<p>But I did not think that Epic had a particularly strong chance of getting an injunction like this.<p>I hope that the takeaway people take from this is &quot;it&#x27;s tricky to guess what a judge will do during a contentious case&quot;, and not, &quot;the judge was always obviously going to issue this injunction.&quot; I still personally think knowing what I know now, if I went back to the start of this case I still wouldn&#x27;t be able to confidently predict this injunction.<p>But maybe other people are better at reading court signals than I am.
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smnrchrdsover 3 years ago
&gt; “The court cannot ultimately conclude that apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws,” she writes in the ruling. “Nonetheless, the trial did show that apple is engaging in anti-competitive conduct under California’s competition laws.”<p>It&#x27;s nice to see that you don&#x27;t have to be a monopolist to be legally barred from anti-competitive behaviour. I hope this puts a permanent stop to all the thread on HN arguing one way or another whether Apple is a monopoly.
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Relsover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand the logic behind this ruling.<p>So, Apple was in the wrong about forcing app devs to use their payment processor (and taking a 30% cut at the time - 15% or 30% now), and they have to change that.<p>But Epic was also in the wrong when they tried to go around this rule, and they have to pay 30% on every transaction they made after their update in which they used direct payment?<p>But if Epic didn&#x27;t try to go around the rule and loudly complain, there would be no judicial case, and no ruling forcing Apple to change?<p>This is weird to me.
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ksecover 3 years ago
I just want to say I follow a lot of court case within the Tech Industry mostly Apple, Samsung, Qualcomm, Intel. And Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers is the only Judge that seems to have clear, well reasoned verdict in all of her cases. Compared to many others cases where the Judge were clearly biases from the very beginning.<p>The other thing that really irritate the heck of me from Apple&#x27;s PR, are their insistence of mentioning how App Store has provided jobs in each country. Creating X amount of Jobs. Below is the statement from Apple on this verdict<p>&gt;Today the Court has affirmed what we&#x27;ve known all along: the App Store is not in violation of antitrust law. As the Court recognized &#x27;success is not illegal.&#x27; Apple faces rigorous competition in every segment in which we do business, and we believe customers and developers choose us because our products and services are the best in the world. We remain committed to ensuring the App Store is a safe and trusted marketplace that supports a thriving developer community and more than 2.1 million U.S. jobs, and where rules apply equally to everyone.
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skygazerover 3 years ago
One thing that&#x27;s bugged&#x2F;occurred to me. People keep acting like Apple will no longer get to charge 30% to developers for in-app purchases, but it seems like they may still be entitled to their 30% and even in this ruling Epic still owes that 30% -- Developers will be able to use alternate payment providers, but may still owe a commission to Apple? Tim Cook alluded to this in his original testimony, and the judge doesn&#x27;t seem to have had an issue with it, and she ordered Epic to pay the 30%.<p>In other words, only the anti-steering violated California law, but otherwise, she validated that Apple&#x27;s business model is reasonable under the law and supported the commission structure, it seems.<p>That seems like a whole can of worms. How will Apple know what to bill developers for apple sourced transactions? Do they need to build new reporting APIs? Within the next 90 days? Is it the honor system? Will developers raise rates on their sites to cover Apple&#x27;s commission? Will this all have been moot? What if a developer doesn&#x27;t pay? Can they be removed? Does apple send them to collections? What does that do to developer relations? Or does Apple abandon commission for external sales they alluded to needing to collect.<p>Edit to add Tim Cook quote from Epic trial [0]: “IAP helps Apple efficiently collect a commission” — for payment processing, but also customer service and the use of Apple’s intellectual property. Without in-app purchases, “we would have to come up with another system to invoice developers, which I think would be a mess.”<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;5&#x2F;22&#x2F;22448139&#x2F;tim-cook-epic-fortnite-trial-testimony-privacy-iap-antitrust" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;5&#x2F;22&#x2F;22448139&#x2F;tim-cook-epic-fo...</a>
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fxtentacleover 3 years ago
Reading this, I cannot help but imagine someone at Apple thinking to themselves &quot;I wish we had granted Epic an exemption like we did with Netflix&quot;.<p>The court proceedings and the documents that they were required to disclose were surely bad for PR and now it looks like they won&#x27;t even keep the monetary benefits.
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thehappypmover 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve read the doc like 10 times. I think there are two key takeaways.<p>First, Apple can&#x27;t stop companies like Epic from including links to other payment tools. Practically speaking, that means things like Kindle can now have a &quot;Purchase on Amazon.com&quot; button (which it currently does not have in order to avoid the 30% cut).<p>Second, the App Store itself is a-okay. Apple does not need to allow side loading or a second App Store.<p>Analysis from me: it&#x27;s a win for Apple. They get to keep their App Store, which would be tremendously bad for them if they were forced to allow alternatives. There will be revenue loss from in-app purchases that are done via external links now, but Apple&#x27;s own mechanisms are likely to continue being the easiest and most seamless, so that revenue stream will hardly go to $0.
granzymesover 3 years ago
Epic&#x27;s statement (via Tim Sweeney): Today’s ruling isn&#x27;t a win for developers or for consumers. Epic is fighting for fair competition among in-app payment methods and app stores for a billion consumers. Fortnite will return to the iOS App Store when and where Epic can offer in-app payment in fair competition with Apple in-app payment, passing along the savings to consumers.<p>Apple&#x27;s statement: Today the Court has affirmed what we&#x27;ve known all along: the App Store is not in violation of antitrust law. As the Court recognized &#x27;success is not illegal.&#x27; Apple faces rigorous competition in every segment in which we do business, and we believe customers and developers choose us because or products and services are the best in the world. We remain committed to ensuring the App Store is a safe and trusted marketplace that supports a thriving developer community and more than 2.1 million U.S. jobs, and where the rules apply equally to everyone.
etchalonover 3 years ago
Everyone seems to reading this ruling as &quot;Apple has to allow other payment processors.&quot;<p>But the text of the order seems to be about anti-steering, i.e. Apple can&#x27;t tell developers they can&#x27;t link out to other payment options on the web.
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gordon_freemanover 3 years ago
From Epic CEO Tim Sweeney from NYT article[1]:<p>Tim Sweeney, Epic’s chief executive, said on Twitter that he was not satisfied with the ruling because it did not go far enough in allowing companies to complete in-app transactions with their own payment systems, versus having to direct customers to outside websites. He said Fortnite would not return to the App Store until such rules were in place.<p>“Today’s ruling isn’t a win for developers or for consumers,” he said. “We will fight on.”<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;technology&#x2F;epic-apple-app-developers.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;technology&#x2F;epic-apple-app...</a>
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syspecover 3 years ago
From: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-to-appeal-decision-in-apple-lawsuit-as-apple-calls-it-a-huge-win&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-to-appeal-decision...</a><p>&gt; Epic Games has announced that it plans to appeal the judge’s decision from today’s Epic v. Apple case. Although today’s ruling says that Apple must relax rules around In-App Purchase and allow apps to link out to third-party payment systems, the judge ruled in Apple’s favor on all other counts.<p>&gt; For instance, Apple was not shown to have a monopoly nor must be compelled to allow third-party app stores or alternative third-party payment systems inside the app itself, as Epic had hoped. In a statement, Apple described the decision as a “huge win for Apple”.
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jjordanover 3 years ago
Hopefully this will eventually lead to a day where users once again have full control over their devices. Android is a bit better, even if alternate app stores don&#x27;t have the same system privileges as Google Play, but Apple devices are wholly authoritarian in what you can run on a device you supposedly own.
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fottaover 3 years ago
&gt; permanently restrained and enjoined from prohibiting developers from including in their apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to In-App Purchasing and (ii) communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily from customers through account registration within the app.<p>This sounds like the same agreement Apple came to a few weeks ago [0]. They can’t bar developers from linking to external payment methods, but doesn’t require them to allow other forms of in app payment.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apple.com&#x2F;newsroom&#x2F;2021&#x2F;08&#x2F;apple-us-developers-agree-to-app-store-updates&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.apple.com&#x2F;newsroom&#x2F;2021&#x2F;08&#x2F;apple-us-developers-a...</a>
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carlosdpover 3 years ago
Wow, this is huge! We&#x27;ll see how this holds up, but definitely seems like a turning point.<p>The effect of this order seems to be Apple can&#x27;t prevent apps from telling customers about alternative in-app purchasing methods, which is a central issue of the case at hand in Epic vs Apple.
jay_kyburzover 3 years ago
I&#x27;m going to put this comment on every Apple vs Epic thread from now on, regardless of how many internet points I lose.<p>Instead of trying to ruin Apples ecosystem, Epic should try and develop their own.<p>If Valve can make the Steam Deck, Epic can make a Fortnite Phone.<p>Epic could then choose to make the phone as open or locked down as they like. They could have their own app store policies, and they could allow any payment platforms they like.<p>It could be an Android fork, or they could have a look at what is going on in the Linux phone community.<p>Would it be a success in the market place? I just think that depends on Epics choices it makes along the way. But I do know that millions of kids would rather have a cool gaming phone rather than an old fashioned iPhone.
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skizmover 3 years ago
I wonder if Apple is allowed to put warnings on apps that contain directions to non-app store payments. Something like &quot;This app may direct you to a payment method not reviewed by or governed by the App Store&#x27;s strict security guidelines. Use at your own discretion. Apple is not responsible for any issues related to this non-Apple payment method.&quot;
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OisinMoranover 3 years ago
To be clear, I&#x27;m on the side of Epic here, but in rulings like this where it has been judged that someone did some wrong (just focusing on Epic breaking their contract) and the punishment is getting them to pay exactly as much as had they done the &quot;right&quot; thing, the expected value is always going to favour doing the &quot;wrong&quot; thing, as sometimes you won&#x27;t get caught. Any fines or decisions like this should include the likelihood of getting caught and make the expected value negative. A fine for not having a train ticket is not just the price of a ticket.
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summerlightover 3 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blumenthal.senate.gov&#x2F;newsroom&#x2F;press&#x2F;release&#x2F;blumenthal-blackburn-and-klobuchar-introduce-bipartisan-antitrust-legislation-to-promote-app-store-competition" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.blumenthal.senate.gov&#x2F;newsroom&#x2F;press&#x2F;release&#x2F;blu...</a><p>Should Apple appeal? I don&#x27;t think so; they now have much bigger thing to worry about. If they decide to appeal, it&#x27;ll generate even more publicity and congress and public are going to be more engaged. Apple desperately wants to get it over with as silent as possible.
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baggy_troughover 3 years ago
Note that Epic also has to pay 30% damages.<p>&gt; n the counterclaim, in favor of Apple on the counterclaim for breach of contract. Epic Games shall pay (1) damages in an amount equal to (i) 30% of the $12,167,719 in revenue Epic Games collected from users in the Fortnite app on iOS through Epic Direct Payment between August and October 2020, plus (ii) 30% of any such revenue Epic Games collected from November 1, 2020 through the date of judgment, and interest according to law.
p2t2pover 3 years ago
I personally don&#x27;t care what courts say and what devs do. If your app wants me to buy a subscription out of IAP system - I won&#x27;t do it. I want my subscription to be present in a central place with a single-click cancellation.
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astlouis44over 3 years ago
Bravo to Epic and team, but I have to say that the web will win out long term. It&#x27;s cross platform, &quot;just works&quot; everywhere, and developers are free to choose from any payment system. They also don&#x27;t have to live in fear from retribution by the platform owner.<p>Our startup Wonder is building a decentralized 3D platform in the browser for Unreal Engine 4 developers who want to ship their immersive applications on the web, be it games, product visualizations, even VR apps. We plan on extending support to Unity and other engines in the near future as well.<p>The biggest innovation is that we offer the tooling to optimize, package, and distribute rich software online that previously could only run on desktop. Thanks to WebAssembly, WebGPU, WebTransport, and WebXR, even the most demanding applications can run client side in the browser.<p>Developers are free to host their creations on their own terms, without a middleman saying what they can and can&#x27;t do.<p>Here&#x27;s a link to our Discord if you&#x27;re interested in hearing more:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discord.gg&#x2F;cFJV6Yu" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;discord.gg&#x2F;cFJV6Yu</a>
throw_m239339over 3 years ago
Wow this is unexpected, until now Apple had a solid case, or so I thought. This is welcome of course, since it means other developers can use that judgement AGAINST Apple. Was it worth it for Apple to go to court all things considered? I guess they were really confident the court would rule in their favor.
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dataflowover 3 years ago
Wow, how did this ruling come so quickly when court cases are so slow to play out normally?<p>Is this something that can get appealed?
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dannywover 3 years ago
Does the permanent injuction apply only to Epic, or does it apply to everyone?
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yyykover 3 years ago
Judge seemed to have reached into the narrowest possible ruling, a reasonable decision in a case which is likely to be appealed by both sides.<p>Apple learnt that the monopoly definition argument doesn&#x27;t prevent rulings against anti-competitive practices, and Epic learnt that if it wants to attack App Store fees it needs to bring an objective criteria to the table and have it accepted.<p>The judge skirted the App Store issue, but I never felt that was important: IMHO, 99.999% of iPhone users would have used Apple&#x27;s store even if alternate stores were available; The only alternative store with any chance of success would have been an OSS store - hardly what Epic wanted.
subdaneover 3 years ago
It&#x27;d be pretty novel and refreshing if Apple competed for developer buy-in for payments on features and functionality.
ChrisMarshallNYover 3 years ago
I think it will be fine, but the one big worry that I have, is that I expect a significant percentage of these &quot;alternatives&quot; to point to scams.<p>That will put Apple in another hot spot. If someone reports that an approved app has scam links in the app, will Apple be on the hook to block the app? If they do, will that, then open them up to charges? What about if they don&#x27;t?<p>I have been quite impressed with the ingenuity of scammers. The Apple customer base is a lucrative target. I am <i>constantly</i> getting hijack attempts and phishing scams, aimed at my AppleID.
mbreeseover 3 years ago
IANAL, but I&#x27;m not sure that this order actually forces Apple to allow alternative in-app purchasing.<p><i>&gt; ... hereby permanently restrained and enjoined from prohibiting developers from (i) including in their apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to In-App Purchasing ...</i><p>To me this reads as Apple must allow people to be able to link out to an external purchasing mechanism. So, for example a link to the Epic Store web page must be allowed, but a different in-app purchasing mechanism could still be limited. Which, I think that was the main complaint for many other developers -- you couldn&#x27;t accept payments outside of the App Store (like on your website).<p>So users can be directed to alternative payment mechanisms, but that doesn&#x27;t mean they must be allowed in the Apps themselves. This seems to be a pretty common-sense written injunction, meaning that developers are allowed to communicate with users and accept payment outside of the Apple garden. This seems pretty straightforward and would cover many (most?) of the developer complaints for dealing with their customers.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21060628&#x2F;epic-apple-injunction.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21060628&#x2F;epic-apple-i...</a>
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scarface74over 3 years ago
People seem to be missing one part of the ruling that all of the wannabe HN lawyers were insisting on.<p>The judge specifically said that Apple wasn’t a monopolist because it controlled the iOS platform.
hrbfover 3 years ago
On the one hand this great for consumer choice, on the other, it will undoubtedly lead to a loss in purchasing confidence of regular users and a flood of scams or scam-like apps. Especially with regard to subscriptions, we’ve seen this play out via SMS-based ringtone subscriptions of days past.<p>Personally, I will never subscribe to anything on my iOS devices if I cannot view and cancel it via the built-in subscription management. Here’s to hoping that Apple is going to make integration with it mandatory.
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cblconfederateover 3 years ago
Should apple appeal this? Is it really worth further damage?<p>It turns out the little guys were right all along. It&#x27;s surprising that it took legal action for apple to realize that, when you invite millions of third parties in your marketplace, you should treat them with some respect. And when this leads to prices of purchases going down, how are people going to keep justifying apple&#x27;s position.<p>I think the biggest win is that micropayment services will grow which is good for all developers (not just in iOS)
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arbirkover 3 years ago
Kids are the customers, parents have the credit card. Epic will have to onboard the parents to really make a dent.<p>What Epic wanted was their own separate store, and that wish is clearly shut down.
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noxvillezaover 3 years ago
If someone has read the full ruling and is familiar enough with the case, what are the odds Apple appeals this - and if they do, is it likely they will win the appeal?
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AlexanderTheGr8over 3 years ago
Does this also apply (as precedent) to Epic vs Google?
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beckman466over 3 years ago
One strategy Apple will explore is turning the Apple appstore into an Apple Arcarde&#x2F;Plus -like service and use dark patterns to basically convince&#x2F;force people to use it. Because the other alternative will be for customers to deal with malware on iOS for the first time (as any other appstores on iOS will always have lesser security because Apple&#x27;s system isn&#x27;t free and open) [1]. Apple didn&#x27;t allow users to change their default browser until iOS 14. That&#x27;s 13 years on from the release of the original iPhone in 2007. They sure as hell aren&#x27;t going to make it easy for other appstores to exist.<p>Business customers will be able to afford this new Appstore &#x27;service&#x27;, but the negative costs will be carried by everyday people, who will, due to the closed nature of Apple&#x27;s walled garden, be forced to get by with much less security.<p>If anything goes wrong with these other app stores Apple will deflect criticism by blaming the govt. for not allowing them to control the full &#x27;iOS experience&#x27; anymore (or in business speak: &#x27;to control all the verticals&#x27;). This of course is the weaponized rhetoric of a monstrous monopolistic entity who uses illogical arguments to misrepresent and confuse the average user&#x2F;customer. We&#x27;ve already seen how far these profit-seeking firms are willing to go to even directly mislead customers into voting against labor protection laws with Uber and Prop 22 [2].<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnu.org&#x2F;philosophy&#x2F;who-does-that-server-really-serve.en.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gnu.org&#x2F;philosophy&#x2F;who-does-that-server-really-s...</a><p>[2] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;bigblackjacobin&#x2F;status&#x2F;1294865684782919686" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;twitter.com&#x2F;bigblackjacobin&#x2F;status&#x2F;12948656847829196...</a>
rubyn00bieover 3 years ago
<i>yawn</i> Apple is getting a mild slap on the wrist and the outcome of the case is probably the best for everyone. It did away with the most entirely absurd and egregious restriction but still lets a company like... choose how to run their business. If anything this is likely to drastically improve the quality of some big-name applications on Apple&#x27;s platforms, further increasing their bottom line. I would bet money technologically illiterate people have sworn off of Apple&#x27;s platforms because they bought a device for a single purpose (like watching Netflix) and then couldn&#x27;t signup for the fucking service on the device. Is that going to be a huge boon for Apple&#x27;s bottom line? Nope. But it will likely make their ecosystem stickier because there&#x27;s less friction for groups of consumers. Chances are Apple-HQ is poppin&#x27; open some champagne today having a laugh that they ever were allowed to prevent links or calls to action.<p>The real winners here, no one seems to be talking about, are the console manufacturers who I&#x27;m sure had their buttholes puckering at nearly the speed of light waiting for the verdict. While Apple could surely continue on without an exclusive AppStore on its platform, Nintendo and Sony would begin to feel some absolutely critical burning. Both manufacturers have de-facto monopolies on their platforms, and those monopolies are at least as restrictive as Apple&#x27;s if not more so because they act as barriers to entry into their markets (i.e. If Sony doesn&#x27;t <i>like</i> your game idea, you can just fuck off with no recourse).<p>The one thing about this case that pisses me off is Sweeny running his mouth like he and Epic are really victims here. His refusal to put Fortnite (which I&#x27;ve never played) back on the app store is pathetic, childish, and anti-consumer. It is honestly as disgusting to me as Facebook trying to peddle their unwavering commitment to tracking their users every waking-action as &quot;pro consumer.&quot; If Sweeny and Epic brought this same case against Nintendo and Sony, I&#x27;d maybe be more sympathetic to his bullshit because at least then it would be consistent. My thought is Epic is likely big enough to bully Sony or Nintendo into better deals on their platforms; while, Apple doesn&#x27;t have to take it&#x27;s shit for a single solitary second because Epic poses no threat to Apple&#x27;s revenue. Then this inability to bully the platform owner threw Sweeny into an _epic_ tantrum and here we be.<p><i>shrug</i> I&#x27;ll stop ranting here.
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gpmover 3 years ago
Note that if you scroll to the bottom of the order, the judge was nice enough to include an outline of the order to aid in navigation<p>Direct link to order: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21060631&#x2F;apple-epic-judgement.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;s3.documentcloud.org&#x2F;documents&#x2F;21060631&#x2F;apple-epic-j...</a>
chillageover 3 years ago
There is a point here which really confuses me. This is an order by a California district judge. So that means it must only be valid in California? So Apple is allowed to keep its practices outside of that state? Or if not, then how can a California decision apply outside of the state? And why do none of the articles on this topic address this point?
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Pulcinellaover 3 years ago
Apple Pay is a separate system than the normal IAP system, but I expect there are going to be tons of apps with tiny web views hosting nothing but the web Apple Pay button. This would cut down on some of the friction of having the user re-enter their credit card info for every app while still cutting out Apple’s 30% cut.
diebeforei485over 3 years ago
Great article in The Verge about what the meaning of a &quot;button&quot; is:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;9&#x2F;10&#x2F;22667161&#x2F;app-store-epic-ruling-difference-button-external-link" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theverge.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;9&#x2F;10&#x2F;22667161&#x2F;app-store-epic-r...</a>
ApolloFortyNineover 3 years ago
&gt;In a separate judgment, the court affirmed that Epic Games was in breach of its contract with Apple when it implemented the alternative payment system in the Fortnite app. As a result, Epic must pay Apple 30 percent of all revenue collected through the system since it was implemented — a sum of more than $3.5 million.<p>Well, that seems rather BS. To even try for the antitrust case they were required to show how it would hurt consumers. So they did. Which went against Apple&#x27;s rules obviously.<p>So it&#x27;s decided that Apple isn&#x27;t allowed to do what they were doing, but, Epic has to pay out a fine anyways? Would the case have even made it this far if Epic hadn&#x27;t done this?<p>I&#x27;m sure Epic is happy to pay the $3.5 million in return for this, and other companies are surely just as pleased. But to have to pay it at all seems like a bit of a legal flaw here.
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justahuman1over 3 years ago
I love the cancellation experience with apple subscriptions, most other things are garbage &#x2F; dark patterns.
paulpanover 3 years ago
Someone correct me if I&#x27;m wrong, but this ruling only applies for in-app purchases correct? E.g. Apple cannot force apps to default to and only use to its payment infrastructure for post-sale and within app transactions (which comes with 30% fees).<p>In other words if my app costs $10 and in-app transactions are $1 apiece, Apple still gets $3 from initial purchase but instead of $.30 from each subsequent in-app transaction, I could potentially keep $.97 (assuming 3% credit card fees).<p>If so I think the long-term impact will be most interesting in that will Apple raise its developer fee significantly and&#x2F;or discourage &quot;free&quot; apps to cover its hosting, review, other overhead costs. It would also incentive app developers to become more like game developers: every feature becomes its own add-on&#x2F;DLC.
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pushkineover 3 years ago
I think the biggest takeaway from this ruling is being overlooked, read page 159<p>Apparently the Sherman Antitrust Act only applies to a service if it <i>strictly</i> cannot be replicated otherwise.<p>In other words, since iOS allows the installation of and does not control the distribution of &quot;web apps&quot;, it therefore has the right to control the distribution of &quot;native apps&quot;<p>It doesn&#x27;t matter that web apps don&#x27;t have access to most of the iPhone&#x27;s API, it doesn&#x27;t matter that they can&#x27;t send notifications or run in the background, it doesn&#x27;t matter that they can&#x27;t run fullscreen or in 64bit, what matters is that they get an icon on the homescreen, they thereby fit the definition of an &quot;app&quot; so technically Apple does not entirely control app distribution on iOS
jollybeanover 3 years ago
I think the other, possibly more meaningful issue, is Apple&#x27;s control over who can and cannot make an app for their devices.<p>If you put a product in BestBuy, it&#x27;s understandable that BestBuy would not want you to offer a very cheap upfront price, and then to have all sorts of &#x27;add ons&#x27; sold directly to consumer where BestBuy doesn&#x27;t make any money.<p>It&#x27;s fair that BestBuy sets terms that they can participate in the follow ons.<p>The limiting factor here, however, is competition.<p>If anyone could make an AppStore for iOS, then the issue of Apple&#x27;s or BestBuy&#x27;s &#x27;terms&#x27; could be side-stepped.<p>The power imbalance is caused by a lack of competition.<p>If there was competition, app makers would find a place where they were not constrained by in-app purchases, or something along those lines.
pupppetover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t see developers dropping their price now they can use their own payment processor. All I see is me, the user, having to struggle through using their janky home-made payment processors as I pay and&#x2F;or try to end my subscriptions.
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ribitover 3 years ago
I am wondering how Apple will react to this. It seems likely that big companies (who pay for much of the App Store) will take the opportunity to implement their own payment option. Small devs probably won&#x27;t bother, since overhead on small purchases + additional accounting is likely to be higher than Apple&#x27;s 15%.<p>Will Apple introduce some sort of tiered pricing model, where apps with third-party purchase option have to pay a listing&#x2F;API fee? Or will they just take a revenue hit?<p>I&#x27;m quite sure that they already planned for this, given their reaction to the verdict. They don&#x27;t appear to be very concerned ...
gokover 3 years ago
Seems like this essentially kills the game console business. If 3rd party Xbox and Playstation games are allowed to sell content with their own payment system, why would anyone buy games through Microsoft&#x2F;Sony?
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plniiover 3 years ago
I haven’t seen my class of app discussed here. In my case, a mobile app is useful for a subset of features of my web app, but it would never replace to full experience. Very few customers would ever think to look for my app in the App Store. Nonetheless Apple wanted to force me to offer the subscription through the App and then take a 30% cut forever. I ended up just releasing an Android version as they were more lax about not including any payment option. I could see this opening up the option for a lot of business apps that augment functionality elsewhere.
anilrover 3 years ago
If an app has been blocked from the app store because it doesn&#x27;t have In-App purchases (it has its own credit card form), do we know how this judgement affects things?<p>It sounds like the app would be allowed to link to an external payment system, but it&#x27;s not clear if a non-Apple in app payment system would be allowed.<p>It&#x27;s also not clear to me if In-App purchases (through Apple) could be required for approval into the store? I assume Apple would still have the power to require use of their payment system.
anfiltover 3 years ago
Such a shame the injuction does not allow end-users to sideload.
baggy_troughover 3 years ago
Note Epic also has to pay 30% damages.<p>&gt; On the counterclaim, in favor of Apple on the counterclaim for breach of contract. Epic Games shall pay (1) damages in an amount equal to (i) 30% of the $12,167,719 in revenue Epic Games collected from users in the Fortnite app on iOS through Epic Direct Payment between August and October 2020, plus (ii) 30% of any such revenue Epic Games collected from November 1, 2020 through the date of judgment, and interest according to law.
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kevincoxover 3 years ago
It isn&#x27;t clear to me if they need to allow third-party payments <i>on the iPhone</i> or they need to allow third-party payments <i>in the App Store</i>. I suspect Apple is less likely to do the former (as presumably that means sideloading) but the latter is great news for open source developers that are getting kicked off app stores for donation links or even webpages in various app stores (Apple isn&#x27;t the only one guilty of this).
zamadatixover 3 years ago
&gt; 43 With respect to the appropriateness of Peely&#x27;s &quot;dress,&quot; the Court understood Apple merely to be &quot;dressing&quot; Peely in a tuxedo for federal court, as jest to reflect the general solemnity of a federal court proceeding. As Mr. Weissinger later remarket, and with which the court agrees, Peely is &quot;just a banana man,&quot; additional attire was not necessary but informative. Trial Tr. (Weissinger) 1443:17.
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parhamnover 3 years ago
&gt; communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily from customers through account registration within the app.<p>Another interesting part of this ruling.
thesuperbigfrogover 3 years ago
It still costs Apple money to run the App Store.<p>Since many developers will now be able to opt out of payments through Apple and Apple will lose that revenue, I foresee Apple changing the terms of service for developers so they can get revenue by some other means not affected by this ruling.<p>Would Apple charge developers based on the number of downloads &#x2F; installs of the developers&#x27; apps?<p>What other ways might Apple make up for the lost revenue?
btownover 3 years ago
This makes me very curious if we&#x27;ll see things like the Amazon Kindle store coming to iOS, as well as an increased amount of paid Amazon Prime content. It&#x27;s absurd that you can read books on the Kindle app but there&#x27;s no CTA to buy them. Whatever ends up happening, this upends whatever status quo existed between the companies.
xvectorover 3 years ago
There goes all of Apple&#x27;s App Store revenue, a cool 25% of Apple&#x27;s total revenue. Should have sold my stock!
lackerover 3 years ago
Great news for mobile developers (and for Stripe). Everyone doing in-app purchases has a huge incentive to quickly find some drop-in replacement that charges 3% instead of 30%.<p>I would be surprised if Apple ends up keeping the fee at 30%. If this injunction holds up, I think they will drop it within the year.
rocquaover 3 years ago
This still allows apple to mandate same price on and outside the platform, and still allows apple to mandate apple pay be an option.<p>This is great for customer experience, because users still have the option to use apple their polished system. But if a (big) player offers a better experience, users get to pick that.
slinkyblackover 3 years ago
Epic has decided to appeal <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-to-appeal-decision-in-apple-lawsuit-as-apple-calls-it-a-huge-win&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;9to5mac.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-to-appeal-decision...</a>
mensetmanusmanover 3 years ago
This is a big deal.<p>I wonder how Apple will respond to dealing with the bandwidth costs of free apps with large bandwidth requirements.<p>Hopefully they just get rid of free apps, and require customers to pay upfront so that they don’t have to deal with as many advertisements.
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quickthrowmanover 3 years ago
Is this going to affect subscriptions? If so, I’m cancelling all of my current subscriptions through apple, they’re the ONLY company that makes cancelling easy and that <i>will</i> go away if this includes subscriptions.
zuhayeerover 3 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;forums&#x2F;thread&#x2F;93990" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;developer.apple.com&#x2F;forums&#x2F;thread&#x2F;93990</a><p>Wonder no more lad, you can use Stripe as IAP soon
stavrosover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t understand why Epic is dissatisfied with this. Doesn&#x27;t the injunction mean that Apple now has to allow other payment processors? Is it that Epic wanted third-party app stores on iOS?
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COGloryover 3 years ago
This is not a good enough outcome. It&#x27;s never been about IAP methods. The problem here is that Apple is stopping you from using software on a physical device you own.<p>Very disappointing ruling.
gjkngrover 3 years ago
here&#x27;s the meat:<p>&quot;Accordingly, a nationwide injunction shall issue enjoining Apple from prohibiting developers to include in their:<p>Apps and their metadata buttons, external links, or other calls to action that direct customers to purchasing mechanisms, in addition to IAP.<p>Nor may Apple prohibit developers from:<p>Communicating with customers through points of contact obtained voluntarily from customers through account registration within the app.&quot;<p>And it applies to all apps, not just games
leptoniscoolover 3 years ago
This is a big money maker for AAPL, they&#x27;ll probably need to raise the profit margins on their hardware to make up for the lost revenue.
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system2over 3 years ago
In the last few years Apple really showed their real face. I am also surprised to see these changes even after their extreme lobbying work.
ggooover 3 years ago
Does this apply to all apps or just games?
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schappimover 3 years ago
This news is a huge opportunity for Stripe, who can quite easily deploy a nice cross platform payments solution.
gigel82over 3 years ago
This would be very good news if it sticks!<p>But since Apple is known to refuse store submissions for opaque reasons, what would stop them from retaliating against apps that provide links to external payment processors with vague unrelated reasons? I would not put that past them.<p>Also, I hope the anti-monopoly part gets picked up at the federal level; no one can deny Apple &amp; Google are de-facto duopoly.
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endisneighover 3 years ago
Is this also true for Epic Games?<p>Why would <i>anyone</i> not circumvent all fees for <i>any</i> platform?
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socialist_coderover 3 years ago
This will certainly get appealed and bogged down even more in the legal system, right? What are the chances this actually happens? And when?<p>Secondly, this is such an easy way to increase your take by 20+% that I would imagine almost every publisher is going to be offering their own payments platform, not just the biggest ones like Epic.
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threatofrainover 3 years ago
That Apple collects high fees ought to be considered separately from whether Apple mandates at least the use of Apple Pay. As a user, I love Sign in with Apple + Apple Pay. It allows my family members to give over very little information over to app companies.<p>This is a level of consumer privacy that&#x27;s not found anywhere else.
ibdfover 3 years ago
I believe this will cause managing subscriptions to be a lot harder and untrustworthy. I will probably have to sign up for different payment systems I never heard of… the store won’t be able to track when subscriptions expire, and this will open up so much room for fraudulent behavior.
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nodamageover 3 years ago
It&#x27;s worth noting that this ruling was not particularly great for Epic as their ultimate goal was to run their own app store under the theory that Apple was unfairly monopolizing app distribution on iOS devices.<p>The court fully rejected Epic&#x27;s argument that Apple held a monopoly over the iOS app distribution market, concluding that the relevant antitrust market did not consist only of iOS devices:<p>&gt; <i>&quot;As demonstrated with respect to the relevant market, Apple does not have substantial market power equating to monopoly power. While considerable, Epic Games has failed to show that Apple’s market power is durable and sustaining given the current state of the relevant market. For that reason, the Court finds that Epic Games failed to prove the first element of a Section 2 claim: the possession of monopoly power in the relevant market.&quot;</i> (Page 152)<p>Consequently all of Epic&#x27;s Sherman Act claims and California Cartwright Act claims were rejected by the court because Epic failed to prove Apple held monopoly power in the relevant market.<p>With specific regards to Epic&#x27;s specific claim that blocking alternative app stores was an unreasonable restraint of trade, the way the court analyzes these types of claims is as follows:<p>1. The plaintiff first has to show that the restraints have an anti-competitive effect.<p>2. The defendant is then given the opportunity to show a pro-competitive justification for the restraint.<p>3. The plaintiff then has to show that those pro-competitive justifications could have been achieved via less restrictive alternatives.<p>In this case, the court agreed with Epic that the constraint was anti-competitive. However, they then accepted Apple&#x27;s pro-competitive justification with regards to security of the platform (page 145):<p>&gt; <i>&quot;Here, the Court finds Apple’s security justification to be a valid and nonpretextual business reason for restricting app distribution. As previously discussed, see supra Facts § V.A.2., centralized app distribution enables Apple to conduct app review, which includes both technical and human components. Human review in particular helps protect security by preventing social engineering attacks, the main vector of malware distribution. Human review also helps protect against fraud, privacy intrusion, and objectionable content beyond levels achievable by purely technical measures. By providing these protections, Apple provides a safe and trusted user experience on iOS, which encourages both users and developers to transact freely and is mutually beneficial. As a result, Apple’s conduct “enhance[s] consumer appeal.” See Qualcomm, 969 F.3d at 991.&quot;</i><p>They also accepted that the difference in approaches between iOS and Android promoted competition between the two platforms (page 146):<p>&gt; <i>&quot;As a corollary of the security justification, the app distribution restrictions promote interbrand competition. The Supreme Court has recognized that limiting intrabrand competition can promote interbrand competition. Leegin, 551 U.S. at 890. For example, restricting price competition among retailers who sell a particular product can help the manufacturer of that product compete against other manufacturers. Id. at 890–91. It is this interbrand competition that “the antitrust laws are designed primarily to protect.” Id. at 895. Here, centralized app distribution and the “walled garden” approach differentiates Apple from Google. That distinction ultimately increases consumer choice by allowing users who value open distribution to purchase Android devices, while those who value security and the protection of a “walled garden” to purchase iOS devices. This, too, is a legitimate procompetitive justification.&quot;</i><p>Epic tried to argue that a less restrictive alternative was possible via enterprise certification or notarization, but this argument was rejected by the court (pages 148-149):<p>&gt; <i>&quot;However, missing from both the enterprise and notarization models is human app review which provides most of the protection against privacy violations, human fraud, and social engineering. These proposed alternatives would require Apple to either add human review to the notarization model or leave app review to third-party app stores. Apple executives suggested that the first option would not scale well. Under the second option, Apple could in theory set minimum guidelines for app stores to provide a “floor” for privacy, security, and quality. However, security could increase or decrease depending on the quality and diligence of the store. Evidence shows that at least on Android, the experiment shows less security.<p>...<p>&gt; In short, Epic Games has not met its burden to show that its proposed alternatives are “virtually as effective” as the current distribution model and can be implemented “without significantly increased cost.”<p>...<p>&gt; Here, Apple’s business choice of ensuring security and protecting its intellectual property rights through centralized app distribution is reasonable, and the Court declines to second-guess that judgment on an underdeveloped record.<p>...<p>&gt; Accordingly, the Court finds that Apple’s app distribution restrictions do not violate Section 1 of the Sherman Act.&quot;</i><p>While this decision will no doubt be appealed by both sides, it&#x27;s not looking particularly good for Epic&#x27;s goal of forcing open alternative app stores on the iOS platform.<p>Finally, the court also affirmed Apple&#x27;s right to permanently ban Epic from the App Store for violation of the developer agreement (page 179):<p>&gt; <i>(2) a declaration that (i) Apple’s termination of the DPLA and the related agreements between Epic Games and Apple was valid, lawful, and enforceable, and (ii) Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games’ wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and&#x2F;or other entities under Epic Games’ control at any time and at Apple&#x27;s sole discretion.</i>
Invictus0over 3 years ago
Will Epic&#x27;s developer account be reinstated?
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post_breakover 3 years ago
I can only assume this means epic developer account reinstated and fortnight is back in the app store.
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throwaway98797over 3 years ago
I hope this doesn’t hurt customer experience.
cyberpsybinover 3 years ago
How do people say that this is Apple&#x27;s victory? The next lawsuit is already on horizon when apps will force users to pay more when going through Apple pay and Apple will force the pricing through new ToS. Even then, this verdict has consequences of epic proportions. If anything, Epic has done more for developers than any lame duck politician.
dustinmorisover 3 years ago
As an Apple user I feel like I have lost the most here. Sad day for users, great day for dodgy cunts like Epic.
OneEyedRobotover 3 years ago
Is Apple surprised?<p>It seems to me that the current model for tech companies is..<p>. Do something clearly sketchy to build your market. It might be copyright violations, it might be lock-in.<p>. Grow&#x2F;profit until someone cares.<p>. Hold off the court cases for as long possible<p>. When they finally go against you, it&#x27;s probably too late since the new thing has come along.<p>. Wash rinse repeat.
Factoriumover 3 years ago
Can this legal precedent also be applied to Steam?
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MeinBlutIstBlauover 3 years ago
&gt;The decision concludes the first part of the battle between the two companies over Apple’s App Store policies and whether they stifle competition. Apple won on 9 of 10 counts but will be forced to change its App Store policies and loosen its grip over in-app purchases.<p>&gt;Rogers said that Apple was not a monopolist and “success is not illegal.”<p>&gt;“Given the trial record, the Court cannot ultimately conclude that Apple is a monopolist under either federal or state antitrust laws,” Rogers wrote.<p>Glad to see nobody knows what a monopoly is anymore. It&#x27;s like the Grant administration all over again...
unansweredover 3 years ago
&gt; Dr. Hanssen’s survey is also severely flawed and ultimately unreliable. First, he reports that 30- 43% of respondents “regularly” use a Microsoft Windows phone even though Microsoft had 0% market share in smartphones in 2018 and no longer sells phones.<p>Apple with their completely truthful experts here.
sombremesaover 3 years ago
What&#x27;s the penalty for Apple just ignoring this ruling, if any?
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a-dubover 3 years ago
this seems ridiculous.<p>does this mean that if disney resorts open up to third party vendors (assuming they haven&#x27;t already), they can&#x27;t require them to accept the disney payment wristband?<p>apple is not a monopoly, nor is it anticompetitive. it is, however, opinionated and differentiates itself in the marketplace with that opinionation. there are less opinionated, yet very competitive alternatives and both users and developers are free to switch to them.
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plandisover 3 years ago
As a consumer I trust how Apple payments work and like the fact that everyone was using it on iOS. Now I will need to cut back on apps and do more due diligence to avoid scams and other issues.<p>Hard to see how this is a win for consumers in addition to developers.
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gigatexalover 3 years ago
That’s it. The App Store is broken. Major win to Epic.<p>I’ll keep using apps and services that take funds via Apple Pay though. I trust Apple in this sense.
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spzbover 3 years ago
My reading of this is that it&#x27;s nowhere near the big deal people are making out in the comments here. According to CNBC&#x27;s report &quot;Apple will no longer be allowed to prohibit developers from providing links or other communications that direct users away from Apple in-app purchasing&quot; [0]. That&#x27;s a long way from forcing Apple to allow alternative IAP providers or installing alternate app stores. It suggests you&#x27;ll have to step out of the app to make a payment (which adds friction) and it&#x27;ll be up to the app developer to validate back in the app that the right person has made the right payment. This sounds similar to what Apple had already conceded they&#x27;d do [1]<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnbc.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-v-apple-judge-reaches-decision-.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnbc.com&#x2F;2021&#x2F;09&#x2F;10&#x2F;epic-games-v-apple-judge-rea...</a><p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2021&#x2F;aug&#x2F;27&#x2F;apple-agrees-to-let-iphone-apps-email-users-about-payment-options" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theguardian.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;2021&#x2F;aug&#x2F;27&#x2F;apple-agr...</a>
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