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End Amazon’s Surveillance Partnership with Police

175 pointsby loteckover 3 years ago

16 comments

gibsonf1over 3 years ago
For sure criminals would fully be in favor of this idea, as that&#x27;s who the police tend to go after.<p>Disclaimer: My wife runs a police intelligence unit that catches actual criminals from ring info, like those people stealing the packages from your front door or breaking into your house.<p>Disclaimer2: I fully do not trust Amazon with the info, but I do trust the police having the info to catch criminals, as thats what they do with it.<p>Disclaimer3: The police only get ring videos that are forwarded to them from ring users, they have no generic access to ring data. The victims of crime tend to forward videos of the criminals in hopes the police can catch them.<p>My wife actually wrote her thesis on the win win aspects of this for fighting crime [1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calhoun.nps.edu&#x2F;handle&#x2F;10945&#x2F;56879" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;calhoun.nps.edu&#x2F;handle&#x2F;10945&#x2F;56879</a>
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DevKoalaover 3 years ago
I live in a city near Oakland and Ring is an incredibly helpful tool. The alerts around porch pirates and burglar breaking into houses make the aggravated crime situation of the past two years almost tolerable. I often see videos in the Neighborhood app in which potential burglars detect the camera and turn around. Other times, they cover the camera as soon as they notice it, but hopefully they have been recognized by then. From my experience, these devices truly help when it comes to crime prevention and keeping the neighbor safe.
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PragmaticPulpover 3 years ago
To clarify, police can’t simply access Ring camera footage at will. They have to send out a request around a certain incident and Ring users are free to choose if they want to contribute their footage.<p>The article mentions this:<p>&gt; In exchange, Amazon provides police departments with an easy way to request and store footage from thousands of residents at one time––allowing for massive warrantless surveillance.<p>“Massive warrantless surveillance” doesn’t make sense because police don’t need a warrant to ask people if they’d like to volunteer footage of an incident.
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handmodelover 3 years ago
&gt;In exchange, Amazon provides police departments with an easy way to request and store footage from thousands of residents at one time––allowing for massive warrantless surveillance.<p>I am confused by this, though I&#x27;m pretty sure it is the author who is intentionally combining verbage though?<p>The link this post connects to is about how people submit their own photos&#x2F;videos of porch thieves + suspicious people to the police. You could argue this is bad on its own but certainly not what &quot;massive warrantless surveillance&quot; invokes. Everyone reading that line without scrutiny will assume it means police departments are somehow watching your own Ring without permission.
nkingsyover 3 years ago
Was shocked to hear the ceo at at my last job say he was expecting to be able to access ring camera feeds soon (2018, safety-related startup).<p>Why would anyone pay for these things to publish a feed from your front door to anyone Amazon wants to share it with?
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rkochmanover 3 years ago
“As we divest from policing…”<p>They lost me right there.
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mchusmaover 3 years ago
I love being able to collaborate with the police with video footage. Package theft is a huge drain on society and needs to be faught.
edderlyover 3 years ago
One Ring &#x2F; Police program I am aware of provides cameras to victims of domestic violence when they find a new home. A common issue is that the abusive former partners try to find out where they live and often succeed. So answering the front door is in of itself a terrifying experience. So are they against &#x27;that&#x27;?
908B64B197over 3 years ago
What&#x27;s the point of having a Ring Doorbell if property crimes aren&#x27;t prosecuted?<p>If incidents like this [0] don&#x27;t get any conviction, I have little faith that Ring footage of vandalism and package theft will get anything done.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;arss9V3A1VA" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;arss9V3A1VA</a>
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dshpalaover 3 years ago
For petitions like this I wish there was a way to say &quot;I don&#x27;t support this&quot; somewhere.<p>Same with donations, if X asks for donations, but I don&#x27;t agree with X, I wish there was a way to find an opposite of X, and donate there instead.<p>Startup opportunity?
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Animatsover 3 years ago
With widespread surveillance, more petty crime is detected and more petty criminals identified. Repeat offenders tend to be detected enough times to reach the felony threshold and sent to prison.<p>The argument has been made in The Atlantic that Black people have a right to be more successful at petty crime.[1]<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;stealing-amazon-packages-age-nextdoor&#x2F;598156&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.theatlantic.com&#x2F;technology&#x2F;archive&#x2F;2019&#x2F;11&#x2F;steal...</a>
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lettergramover 3 years ago
This should really be taken up with the legislators of given states.<p>If anyone has any form letter they recommend, I can add it to a website I&#x27;m working on: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vocalvoters.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vocalvoters.com&#x2F;</a>
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aborsyover 3 years ago
The article provides a good example of misinformation.<p>Other posters have clarified.
throwawayseaover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t own any kind of security system or surveillance camera, and even I find this site and its claims incredibly skewed and hyperbolic. Let&#x27;s examine each major point on that page:<p>1. &quot;Racial profiling is at the heart of Amazon Ring’s business model. In partnership with the police, Amazon profits from and therefore fosters a culture of racist fear mongering.&quot;<p>Nope, what&#x27;s at the heart of Ring&#x27;s business model is people&#x27;s rational and completely legitimate desire to a) be safe, b) not fall victim to crimes, c) be made whole by bringing criminals to justice, and d) deter criminals by those consequences. This requires the cooperation of the police, city prosecution, and local governments of course - but having surveillance footage is a big benefit and peace of mind to residents, and a major aid to those involved in preventing and investigating crime.<p>2. &quot;Amazon Sells Police Partners Racist Technology&quot;<p>No, facial surveillance technology is not racist. First off, facial recognition algorithms do not take race as an input factor to make any kind of determination. Disparate outcomes, either in terms of arrests, commission of crimes, or false positives&#x2F;negatives, does not make this (or any other) system racist as long as explicit discrimination is not being performed based on race. This is the same debate that&#x27;s had between equity (equality of outcomes) and equality (equality of opportunity) in other situations. For example, college admissions are not racist just because some races have low representation relative to their population size. However, affirmative action is a systemically racist policy because it explicitly discriminates based on race. A similar line of thinking applies here. Secondly, false positives are fixed easily by having a human in the loop to verify matches, which all implementations of facial recognition in America use. Therefore, the false positive rate is no worse than humans and we still get the benefit of locating suspects from a large search space quickly and efficiently, so they can be brought to justice by police departments that have limited staff and resources.<p>3. &quot;After the murder of George Floyd millions of protesters took to the streets to oppose police violence and systematic racism. Cops used heavily invasive surveillance tools to identify, track, and even arrest activists exercising their First Amendment rights.&quot;<p>There isn&#x27;t any expectation of privacy in a public place. I can film you, you can film me, we both can film cops, cops can film us, and so on. That seems reasonable. It is also laughable to claim that those being arrested in these &quot;protests&quot; were merely exercising their first amendment rights. In my city, and numerous others across the country, we had mass rioting and people purposely antagonizing the police and looking for violent confrontation. We saw property damage, vandalism, arson, blockades of basic infrastructure, physical violence, many deaths, and even an attempt to seize public land and declare it a separate sovereign nation (CHAZ&#x2F;CHOP). Just perform a web search for what happened in DC, Minneapolis, Seattle, Portland, and other cities in the days following the George Floyd incident and the rest of the year. A violent riot is not a protest, and participants in those crimes should have been arrested and prosecuted more quickly, if anything.<p>4. &quot;While activists call for the defunding of police forces, Amazon is doing everything they can to solidify themselves as an extension of law enforcement.&quot;<p>White leftist activists may be calling for defunding of police forces, but minorities don&#x27;t want that. An overwhelming majority of Black Americans want to retain local police presence (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.gallup.com&#x2F;poll&#x2F;316571&#x2F;black-americans-police-retain-local-presence.aspx" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.gallup.com&#x2F;poll&#x2F;316571&#x2F;black-americans-police-r...</a>). The push for defunding is entirely a luxury belief, likely held by those who are shielded from the realities of crime.<p>5. &quot;Amazon creates dangerous technology marketed to make policing faster, cheaper, and more efficient in social control. This automated surveillance technology enables mass scale policing that can monitor everyone everywhere...Amazon’s surveillance empire will only solidify the police state.&quot;<p>Facial recognition shouldn&#x27;t be banned. As a tax paying law following resident, I definitely want my local police department to bring criminals to justice and deter crime. I&#x27;d like them to do so as effectively and efficiently as possible, which means giving them access to the best technology available. I am OK with some controls that limit use of facial recognition to only situations with either a warrant or some other condition like reasonable suspicion or probable cause. But an outright ban on this technology is ultimately no different than banning the use of electricity at police stations.
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EastOfTruthover 3 years ago
if you are going to end THAT partnership, please end all mega-corps partnerships...
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benatkinover 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve been avoiding Whole Foods, but I&#x27;ve heard Trader Joe&#x27;s isn&#x27;t much better. This, which I knew but hadn&#x27;t thought about in a while, convinces me that Trader Joe&#x27;s is much better.