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Software company SAP: World-leading through intellectual property theft?

183 pointsby dinkelbergover 3 years ago

12 comments

hn_throwaway_99over 3 years ago
At the same time, I&#x27;m pretty familiar with the case of patent troll (OK, maybe not a full patent troll in the complete sense in that they did have a selling product at one time, but a troll in the sense that the patent was complete bullshit) where SAP lost a $400 million dollar patent lawsuit (surprise surprise, in Eastern Texas jurisdiction), appealed it all the way to the SCOTUS who declined to hear it, settled with Versata, the patent troll, and <i>then</i> the original patent was declared invalid [1]. Must be nice to have collected major coin on a patent that&#x27;s not even valid.<p>Point is that at this level there is tons of corporate IP bullshit going around, it&#x27;s basically a required part of playing the game.<p>1. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;us-sap-se-versata-patent-idUSKCN0PJ2LS20150709" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.reuters.com&#x2F;article&#x2F;us-sap-se-versata-patent-idU...</a>
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bsedlmover 3 years ago
Intellectual Property is a dumb idea, a legacy of thousands of years of exclusive (physically unique) markets of goods (i.e. making copies is expensive).<p>Digital artifacts require a new non-exclusive property market scheme (to be determined; it&#x27;s a difficult problem). Enforcing the older paradigm with laws and coercion is not a long term solution.
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dathinabover 3 years ago
So SAP as a &quot;big cooperate&quot; software concern isn&#x27;t better then the other &quot;big cooperate&quot; software concerns.<p>I know that is a bit sarcastic, but not only is IP theft of big software concerns pretty common (the article makes it look like a sensation, a bit (bad) surprise).<p>But at the same time IP law is often so broken that you could say probably every larger software out there does somehow infringe on some IP.<p>So without having details is naught impossible to say if it&#x27;s IP theft which should be IP theft, or IP theft which is only IP theft due to broken laws, and might also not be judged as IP theft after going through a expensive many year law-suite.<p>And the article fails to lay down why it&#x27;s the former (ethical questionable IP theft) instead of the later (ethical questionable IP claims).<p>Through I wouldn&#x27;t be surprising if it is ethical questionable IP theft.<p>But I would even be less surprised if it a mixture of both.
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intunderflowover 3 years ago
Like many laws, IP law doesn&#x27;t apply to big powerful companies unless they go after another big company
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wayoutthereover 3 years ago
Welcome to enterprise software, you must be new here.<p>The big ERP vendors have armies of lawyers and patents that can stymie and delay any IP claims from smaller firms. At the same time, SAP has active relationships with all the customers who matter, and the SAP brand still carries weight, so their version of the product will almost always win a big chunk of market share, despite being inferior.<p>The only reason there were consequences for SAP in this case is because they stole from Oracle; who invented this playbook.
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docflabbyover 3 years ago
Every world leading company won it&#x27;s position though unfair advantage. Those are normally breaking laws, fraud, stealing technology or slave labour.<p>None of them are there on merit.
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_Microftover 3 years ago
DeepL translation [0] of the submitted article [1]:<p><i>Software company SAP - With data theft to the top of the world?<p>12.11.2021 11:00 a.m., by Tim Bartz and Christian Bergmann, MDR<p>According to research by Fakt and &quot;Der Spiegel,&quot; the theft of intellectual property by SAP could have a long tradition. As early as 1997 to 2008, the company allegedly misused competitors&#x27; developments in cooperation with universities.<p>Newly surfaced internal documents cast a dark shadow over the software company SAP, its management and supervisory board. According to research by the ARD magazine Fakt and &quot;Der Spiegel,&quot; the picture of a company that apparently also tricked its way to the top of the world with unfair methods, especially theft of intellectual property, is emerging.<p>The events date back to the 1990s and are recorded in an expert report by the law firm Linklaters from 2010. The report was commissioned by SAP itself.<p>The background to this was the legal dispute with Oracle at the time. The U.S. archrival had sued SAP in 2007 because the Germans had gained access to copyrighted files from Oracle servers through the acquisition of the software service provider TomorrowNow. In a settlement, SAP later had to pay Oracle $357 million in damages.<p>The Linklaters expert opinion was intended to clarify whether liability claims exist against the then executive board member Gerhard Oswald - Oswald was responsible for the TomorrowNow acquisition. The document contains numerous indications that Oswald and one of his employees knew about copyright infringements. In addition, the SAP Executive Board under CEO Henning Kagermann at the time allegedly approved everything.<p>However, the company&#x27;s top management did not draw any conclusions from the report. Oswald was even promoted, although the Linklaters lawyers had recommended that he be parted with &quot;without making any noise&quot;. Oswald, a confidant of SAP founder and major shareholder Dietmar Hopp, remained on the executive board until 2016 and has been on the supervisory board since 2019.<p>Dubious cooperation between University of Mannheim and SAP<p>Fakt and &quot;Spiegel&quot; also report on a dubious cooperation between SAP and the University of Mannheim starting in 1997, in which Oswald again played a central role. This is also the subject of the report. Officially, the purpose of the cooperation was to have competing software examined by an independent institute, in this case the Business Informatics Research Group at the University of Mannheim. In fact, SAP employees spied on the competition under the guise of the cooperation. Even interventions by the legal department, the compliance team and the auditing department were largely ignored.<p>According to information from Fakt and &quot;Spiegel,&quot; SAP went all the way to the German Constitutional Court to prevent the Mannheim public prosecutor&#x27;s office from using the report as evidence in an investigation against SAP executives for copyright infringement. Officials had come across the document in 2011 during a raid on the company&#x27;s headquarters.<p>Germany&#x27;s highest court did not accept the constitutional complaint at the time. The criminal proceedings against the board members were dropped at the end of 2017, but SAP had to pay 250,000 euros to the state treasury.<p>SAP said on request that the copyright infringements by TomorrowNow had been the subject of the proceedings with Oracle, which were settled amicably and had been concluded. The events surrounding the University of Mannheim had been comprehensively processed internally. The protection of intellectual property is the foundation of all SAP solutions.</i><p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.DeepL.com&#x2F;Translator" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.DeepL.com&#x2F;Translator</a> (free version)<p>[1] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;investigativ&#x2F;mdr&#x2F;sap-geistiges-eigentum-101.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tagesschau.de&#x2F;investigativ&#x2F;mdr&#x2F;sap-geistiges-eig...</a>
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deanCommieover 3 years ago
SAP is also a big conglomerate full of aquisitions that shouldn&#x27;t be tainted with this...<p>In the 90&#x27;s I worked at Seagate Software in Vancouver, BC, which made Crystal Reports (A million readers just either felt a wave of nostalgia or a shudder of disgust).<p>Seagate Software became Crystal Decisions, got acquired by Business Objects, which got acquired by SAP.<p>I wonder how much of the SAP work in Vancouver today is still on something related to Crystal Reports...
pr07ecH70rover 3 years ago
Alle Unternehmen stehlen Ideen von jungen Studenten voller Hoffnungen und Träume. Sehr heuchlerisch aber auch sehr lustig, dass diese Nachrichten gerade jetzt herauskommen...<p>Aka, big companies are full of c*p!
jeabaysover 3 years ago
There is nothing wrong with &quot;intellectual property&quot; &quot;theft&quot;, it overwhelmingly benefits everyone BUT the western multinational megacorporations, so I wholeheartedly support &quot;intellectual property&quot; appropriation.
natdedover 3 years ago
Their products make me want to kms thats all I know.
ttoinouover 3 years ago
IP is not property (usus, fructus, abusus) so the concept of IP theft is not meaningful
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