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Freedom is not a goal, but a direction

299 pointsby mef51over 3 years ago

29 comments

yositoover 3 years ago
The phrase that stands out to me in this is &quot;the riot of human diversity&quot;. It&#x27;s a great phrase. Probably worthy of a book or even a manifesto.<p>I&#x27;m a multicultural person. Dual US&#x2F;EU citizen. I&#x27;ve spent years living in each of the US, South America, the Caribbean and Europe.<p>Since the mid-2010s, I&#x27;ve been acutely aware of different societal pressures to conform, and I&#x27;ve been &quot;cancelled&quot; by various groups of aquaintences over having opinions or failing to have opinions that the group demanded. Thankfully, I&#x27;ve got a few loyal friends, and a strong sense of self that have allowed me to recover and thrive.<p>Through it all, one thing I&#x27;ve learned very well is that people in the world have very diverse views and opinions. It&#x27;s a beautiful thing, and I will never make someone my enemy over their views. I have one moral standard to which I hold myself and others: do no harm. Beyond that, there is room for tolerance and disagreement.
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photochemsynover 3 years ago
Excellent article. For years I&#x27;ve suspected that when American &#x27;leaders&#x27; look at the kind of power the Chinese government (or the Saudi government) has over its people, their main emotion is not revulsion but rather envy, and this seems rather bipartisan in nature, and is a sentiment found not just in the political sphere but also the corporate sphere.<p>It&#x27;s the complete intertwinement of the corporate and political spheres that leads to totalitarian regimes who view their own people as the greatest threat to their continued grasp on power and so institute highly repressive mass surveillance system, mass incarceration of dissidents and so on.<p>However, there&#x27;s another aspect to this, in which &#x27;freedom&#x27; is not just legal in nature, but economic and physical as well. What does it mean to be &#x27;free&#x27; in a company town where the only employers are Amazon and Walmart? What does it mean to be &#x27;free&#x27; when energy sources you need for survival are controlled by someone else? The Chinese model seems to be &#x27;we will ensure you have access to food and water and energy and in exchange your total loyalty to the state is required&#x27;.<p>The American model I&#x27;m afraid is becoming &#x27;we will ensure you have access to food and water and energy and in exchange your total loyalty to your corporate employer is required.&#x27;
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arnooooooover 3 years ago
I can understand how it could be considered that in a very non-free society, but no. Freedom exists only as an equilibrium between your freedom and that of others, between paralyzing order and utter chaos.
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debacleover 3 years ago
No one is ever truly free. Maybe great, great ascetics who are so detached from the world that their freedom has become a prison of their own.<p>When I was young, I felt every bite at my freedom deeply. Having a job, a schedule, responsibilities. Each one was deleterious to my freedom in a way that, as a young man, I was unequipped to handle.<p>I&#x27;ve learned at some point in the last few years that we trade in our freedoms every day of our lives. If you have a driver&#x27;s license or pasteurized milk in your refrigerator, you have traded in some way in your freedom.<p>What I see today is a contingent of people who don&#x27;t value their freedom at all. They have no spiritual relationship with their existence as an individual - their identity is predicated on their characteristics and not their innate uniqueness.<p>Down that road is every manner of tyranny.
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samuelizdatover 3 years ago
Freedom is the degree to which you are able to navigate the power process. The power process is the ability to identify and change something within a system. For example, if there is a vending machine with coke and you want pepsi. Is there a process that you can use to make that happen? If there is, then you have freedom. This of course extends to bigger things than soda. &quot;Sovereign is he who makes the exception&quot;
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evancoopover 3 years ago
Perhaps there is some definition of freedom in mathematical terms in which the total scope of decision-making autonomy is maximized over all citizens? The barbarian example would yield a low tally, as the leaders of a hoard are &quot;free,&quot; but their subordinates have little decision-making capacity. In terms of the limitations of personal freedoms, the boundary might lie where the diminishment of others&#x27; freedoms exceeds the diminishment of one&#x27;s own if restrained. (E.g. killing someone eliminates all of their future decisions, but preventing a murder eliminates only one decision for the potential murderer?)
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benaover 3 years ago
I believe I&#x27;ve gotten downvoted here for voicing a similar thought.<p>Some things can&#x27;t be &quot;solved&quot;, you constantly have to do the work. Democracy, relationships, tolerance, etc and I guess freedom, but that&#x27;s similar to democracy.<p>There&#x27;s no end goal to them. You can lose them if you don&#x27;t work at preserving them.
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user3939382over 3 years ago
I spent a lot of time reading political philosophy books from smart people with big reputations and the definition and dynamics of liberty was definitely an overriding theme. My takeaway many years later is that it&#x27;s a very complex topic and many people, all with contradictory positions, have a lot of confidence in their take on it. I trump them all by having no confidence in my take!
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foxhopover 3 years ago
Freedom is a tricky word for people to grok.<p>This is because people look at it from the FREEDOM TO perspective rather than the more valid FREEDOM FROM perspective.
WarOnPrivacyover 3 years ago
<i>it is my belief that market forces, democratic decline, and a toxic obsession with &quot;national security&quot; — a euphemism for state supremacy — are drawing the US and China to meet in the middle: a common extreme.</i><p>Amen brother.<p>I realized that National Security is all about US Gov security &amp; US Gov partner&#x27;s security &amp; major campaign donor security and that&#x27;s about it.
dumb1224over 3 years ago
I thought the discussion will be around the culture revolution, not so much as &#x27;freedom&#x27; but I guess there are intricate links. Quite unlike many other 90s kids growing up in China, I read a lot of the old books and journals from that era inherited from my grandfather. Novels, novelette, magazines what not. Not to nitpick but I think a rightist (Aì Qīng) in chinese political spectrum is actually left-wing (in the sense of aligning with the west, pursuing free individuality and less compliant with conservative values etc). I was in Tate London where Ai&#x27;s exhibition was on and there was actually pretty cool footages accompanying the sunflower seeds.<p>Regarding Edward&#x27;s article and his connection to Ai&#x27;s book, I think I could understand it from memory of reading culture revolution books. They are all about human nature and individual struggles, very little is about actually political stances. It often portraits intellectuals against village fools (mob riding the revolution waves to obtain power over everyone), their realisation of life and coming of age (since protagonists are often from privileged background and aristocrat families who have leftist values, or rather, called rightists in China). The value clash between total opposite sides, tribal, village, modern, metropolitan, aspiration, destination, mundane, soul crashing... It resonates with ordinary people because it&#x27;s picturing societal and individual psychologies. This is my naive take.
hereme888over 3 years ago
Excellent article, and beautifully written. Thanks for sharing.
outside1234over 3 years ago
Are there any projects to actually try to evolve the web to avoid censorship &#x2F; intermediation?<p>It seems to me we are good at identifying the negative trend but aren&#x27;t actually acting on them. Or am I just missing the obvious?
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wtmtover 3 years ago
&gt; building out a similar technological and political infrastructure, using similar the justifications of countering terrorism, misinformation, sedition, and subjective “social harms.”<p>FWIW, this seems to be a common thread in many countries apart from China and the US. “Sedition”, for example, has become the stick to use for any kind of dissent uttered in India over the last few years (a lot more so compared to before).<p>&gt; rather, it is my belief that market forces, democratic decline, and a toxic obsession with “national security”—a euphemism for state supremacy—are drawing the US and China to meet in the middle: a common extreme. A consensus-challenging internet is perceived by both governments as a threat to central authority, and the pervasive surveillance and speech restrictions they’ve begun to mutually embrace will produce an authoritarian center of gravity that over time will compress every aspect of individual and national political differences until little distance remains.<p>Again, please add India to this list. It would take a lot to detail out how things are in the country. So let me share one recent set of incidents in a major city (where Google has its largest offices). Police, without the backing of any law or specific authorization, were stopping people on the streets and asking them to unlock their phones and show their WhatsApp chats so that the police could read and see if the person was involved in transacting ganja (marijuana&#x2F;weed).<p>But such things go on without the courts batting an eye or punishing the abuse of power with serious consequences.<p>I’ve kinda lost faith in democracies and the claims of checks and balances with the executive, legislature and judiciary. Power corrupts all of them equally, and they all side with each other rather than with the people who they took an oath to serve.
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twobitshifterover 3 years ago
I like this point. To others, the statement is not a definition of freedom, but a guide on how to make decisions. If you think of freedom as a point, that needs to be achieved, defended, or maintained, you’ll act in opposition to other forces, and choose angles to defend around the past basis. If instead, freedom is a vector, your goal is positive, to expand it, to open new freedoms, and to ensure that as society moves forward freedom continues to grow and be maintained with it.
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WarOnPrivacyover 3 years ago
<i>A consensus-challenging internet is perceived by both governments as a threat to central authority, and the pervasive surveillance and speech restrictions they’ve begun to mutually embrace will produce an authoritarian center of gravity that over time will compress every aspect of individual and national political differences until little distance remains.</i><p>This is why both parties are so bizarrely hostile to Section 230.
RobertRobertsover 3 years ago
Freedom is the default for existence.<p>The only way to not have freedom is for others to remove it from you by force or threat of it. The threat of it is what causes us to self limit our own freedoms. (sometimes for a greater good, sometimes not)
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milky2028over 3 years ago
Is it just me or is this nonsensical trash that seems to say absolutely nothing?
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rob_cover 3 years ago
Not sure I agree with the title. Freedom should be a right that isn&#x27;t to be taken from you, not a journey or a goal. Shame the rest of the article reads like a love letter to Ai (not a complaining about the artist I like his work).<p>But given the article&#x27;s author, whenever he speaks or writes I&#x27;m expecting more somehow...
ukjover 3 years ago
&quot;Freedom&quot; is a symbol. Like all symbols and all symbolism it means nothing to Bob and everything to Bill. It means one things to Sarah and another to Sally.<p>One person&#x27;s freedom is another&#x27;s tyranny and vice versa.<p>It&#x27;s all a treacherous language game.
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dghughesover 3 years ago
I think many people use the word freedom when they mean safety.
sdaveover 3 years ago
Freedom is a .... consequence , of ....
chasd00over 3 years ago
freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose - Janis Joplin<p>i didn&#x27;t read the article because i&#x27;m free to not have to ;) I know it&#x27;s shallow but, to me, freedom is a road trip. Being able to drive across the country without having to get permits or passports or anything, just being able to move about is freedom to me.
motohagiographyover 3 years ago
I&#x27;d argue that before freedom can be a goal or a direction it&#x27;s necessarily an identity first. When we think of freedom as an external thing, it&#x27;s a reaction that defines itself as inferiorized to the thing one is becoming free <i>from</i>.<p>I like Snowden&#x27;s thinking and think he&#x27;s one of the greatest exemplars of courage alive today, and not to use his personal email newsletter as a foil, but I think he missed some key depth.<p>The crux I think of the culture war is whether the ideal of freedom originates from identity - or is the effect of experience. This crux is related to the tension between individual and collective good, but not defined by it. I think the line is deeper.<p>The peculiar aspect of viewing freedom as an identity is it necessitates - if not a belief in the divine, at least a presumption of it. If you believe freedom is an effect of circumstances, it relates you to the material world as being subject of it. If you see freedom as a state of existence or an axiom of being, it has to originate from somewhere, which implies it was made or granted - and not by humanity.<p>This is why the culture war isn&#x27;t intellectual or about ideas or a specific &quot;religion,&quot; but it is the exact same kind of religious conflict we&#x27;ve recorded for milennia, because it&#x27;s over beliefs about identity. &quot;Attacks&quot; or subjugation of freedom isn&#x27;t an attack on an ideal, they become an attack on &quot;free people.&quot;<p>However, the complement or opposition to this free identity is the one where people identify as un-free, or as subjects to forces - unfortunately for us all, those forces are of the freedom-identified. Unlike freedom, this view doesn&#x27;t come from divine presumption, but material physical expereince, either of real direct oppression and abuse, or via the logic of ideas in language. Their belief comes from things that mostly happened to them. It&#x27;s a founding axiom of their identity, where your first words are for things that reflect your identity as a subject, slave, or oppressed. This identity requires an earthly oppressor, independent of whether it is real or mostly symbolic. For all my criticisms of it, it&#x27;s a consequence of lived experience and not faith in some divine force.<p>Anyway, into heady territory here, but on this freedom&#x2F;culture issue I think we&#x27;ve tried everything else. If we&#x27;re doing pithy aphorisms, I&#x27;d say instead that identities are irreconcilable. We can co-exist, but we cannot fully know or understand each other, even if the greatest thing in life is the little bits we do get to know and understand about others.<p>I&#x27;d say that recognizing freedom as those parts of others we existentially cannot understand and treating it as unexplored opportunity for growth goes a long way to reconciling the interests of those who identify as free, and those who do not.
tompover 3 years ago
Same for <i>equality</i> and <i>meritocracy</i>.
1cvmaskover 3 years ago
I am glad that they posted this with the subtitle instead of the original title &quot;Cultural Revolutions&quot; which was posted a couple of days ago and sadly got no traction.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29247018" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=29247018</a><p>The way Edward Snowden weaves Ai Wei-Wei&#x27;s account of his journey through the Cultural Revolution (1000 Years of Joys and Sorrows - <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.penguinrandomhouse.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;246165&#x2F;1000-years-o" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.penguinrandomhouse.com&#x2F;books&#x2F;246165&#x2F;1000-years-o</a>...) and his own is great:<p>From the time I began studying China’s quest to intermediate the information space of its domestic internet, as part of my classified work at the NSA, I’d experience an unpleasant spinal tingle whenever I came across a new report indicating that the United States government, was, piece by piece, building out a similar technological and political infrastructure, using similar the justifications of countering terrorism, misinformation, sedition, and subjective “social harms.” I don’t want to be misunderstood as saying “East” and “West” were, or are, the same; rather, it is my belief that market forces, democratic decline, and a toxic obsession with “national security”—a euphemism for state supremacy—are drawing the US and China to meet in the middle: a common extreme. A consensus-challenging internet is perceived by both governments as a threat to central authority, and the pervasive surveillance and speech restrictions they’ve begun to mutually embrace will produce an authoritarian center of gravity that over time will compress every aspect of individual and national political differences until little distance remains.
sharemywinover 3 years ago
After reading that I think he just said buy bitcoin.
pronover 3 years ago
&gt; Under the influence of politically correct extremism, individual thought and expression are too often curbed<p>Uh-huh. I can only assume this refers to the so-called &quot;cancel-culture&quot; which probably doesn&#x27;t exist (I am not claiming that there aren&#x27;t &quot;cancellation&quot; incidents, but for this to exist as a &quot;culture&quot; or a trend, it needs to be shown that fewer people today can express and publicly disseminate fewer opinions than in the past; this is probably the very opposite of reality).<p>Freedom is almost self-contradictory. A person living alone in the world can be free, but two cannot. Either they have the freedom to curtail the other&#x27;s freedom, or they do not. Either way, someone here is not fully free. So whenever people speak of more freedom, the question is, more freedom for whom and at the expense of whom. Like anything political, freedom is a resource that needs to be allocated among people, and there are valid debates over how. But within reasonable circumstances, there is no one direction toward freedom, but many directions, each giving more freedom to some and less to others.
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2OEH8eoCRo0over 3 years ago
&gt; A close review of Snowden&#x27;s official employment records and submissions reveals a pattern of intentional lying. He claimed to have left Army basic training because of broken legs when in fact he washed out because of shin splints. He claimed to have obtained a high school degree equivalent when in fact he never did. He claimed to have worked for the CIA as a &quot;senior advisor,&quot; which was a gross exaggeration of his entry-level duties as a computer technician. He also doctored his performance evaluations and obtained new positions at NSA by exaggerating his resume and stealing the answers to an employment test. In May 2013, Snowden informed his supervisor that he would be out of the office to receive treatment for worsening epilepsy. In reality, he was on his way to Hong Kong with stolen secrets.
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