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The Tinkerbell Griftopia

191 pointsby rwosyncover 3 years ago

24 comments

danielvfover 3 years ago
I work in the crypto industry right now - my job is to keep bad guys from stealing XXX millions of dollars. I&#x27;ve also worked on a team that has done the tech side of several record breaking NFT&#x27;s sales. And I&#x27;ve sold my own NFTS for fun, and strangers have bought them (wat!).<p>I&#x27;m not a &quot;believer&quot;. Crypto is indeed full of idiots - and scammers - and crazy people who will say anything to see the token they hold go up - and scammers - and crazy people chasing a 100x buck - and more scammers. And even ignoring the scams, it&#x27;s like living in an alternate Alice-in-Wonderland world where the rules of normal physics, normal economics, and normal society no longer seem to apply. It is truly a frothing zoo of non-normality.<p>And yet I&#x27;m not a &quot;skeptic&quot; either. There are really, really hard technological problems out there, and there are really wonderful people working on them. In the middle of the economic silliness, there&#x27;s a lot of new things around groups and economics being tried. And amidst the flurry of insanity in NFT world, there is some genuinely good art being created.<p>For example, take the stuff this person creates (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tylerxhobbs.com&#x2F;fidenza" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;tylerxhobbs.com&#x2F;fidenza</a>). The process of making it is exactly the kind of stuff hackernews loves, and it is genuinely good art. It&#x27;s stuff I put on the wall. The whole game around who gets to pay a stupid amount of money to say they own it (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;opensea.io&#x2F;assets&#x2F;0xa7d8d9ef8d8ce8992df33d8b8cf4aebabd5bd270&#x2F;78000313" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;opensea.io&#x2F;assets&#x2F;0xa7d8d9ef8d8ce8992df33d8b8cf4aeba...</a>) of them doesn&#x27;t diminish the fact that art has been created, and the art can be enjoyed anyone.<p>It&#x27;s easy, when you see lots of people making absurd claims, to go beyond just refuting those claims, and to slip into purely dismissing everything without ever checking to see if there&#x27;s something of value there.<p>But there is good, interesting stuff going underneath the madness frothing on twitter around crypto. Deep behind the apparent wall of film-flam artists, there&#x27;s work going on in super weird math, formal software proving with billions of dollars on the line, new programming languages, new ways of scaling consensus, and lots of art being created.
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asfgfsigninoiover 3 years ago
&gt;But unlike say the eternal emacs&#x2F;vim war, the divisions on this topic are entirely philosophical and about culture instead of technology.<p>What? My problem with &quot;crypto assets&quot; is that &quot;blockchains&quot; are outperformed by a System&#x2F;360 while costing billions of dollars to run and drawing about the same power as all datacenters in the world put together. The fact that I like Star Trek is irrelevant.
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wpietriover 3 years ago
Stellar article. It matches a ton of my views. I really appreciate the author for taking the time to follow the industry and keep writing about it. I&#x27;ve been tempted to do the same, but it would be so much work. involved but not only is the space metastasizing at an incredible rate, but even proponents agree that there&#x27;s a ton of BS. And honestly, it would be terrible for my stress levels to deal with the army of financially motivated proponents.
NikolaeVariusover 3 years ago
Anyway here you go<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thenftbay.org&#x2F;description.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thenftbay.org&#x2F;description.html</a> <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thenftbay.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;thenftbay.org&#x2F;</a><p>You can have all the NFTs in existence without having to wear out your right click button.<p>We can all be &quot;rich&quot;
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h2odragonover 3 years ago
Soon we get to the point when the Tinkerbell believers become violent against the unfaithful because their heresy is what spoiling the magic.<p>In practise this will mean legal regulation and support, probably by some further perversion of IP laws. Really dont see any end game that aint ugly.
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cwkossover 3 years ago
There are several major issues with NFTs but I don&#x27;t think this article identifies any of them:<p>- NFTs are not durable. All of the implementations I&#x27;ve seen are trading &quot;ownership&quot; of URLs that rely on DNS and WHOIS. URL is nice for convenience feature, but they should at least include file hashes, ideally multiple perceptual hashes as well. If there is a central point of failure in a web service, the benefits of decentralization are null. If OpenSea goes down, your NFT is effectively gone: so what is the effective distinction from OpenSea hosting a centralized database?<p>- Scarcity is entirely illusory across ecosystems. A given NFT within one ecosystem may be scarce, but there is nothing preventing duplicate NFTs of the exact same content (or minor pixel changes). That&#x27;s why perceptual and file hashes would be useful: currently there is little to stop someone from taking popular NFTs on one ecosystem and selling the same images on another ecosystem. Ecosystems have a financial incentive to ignore enforcing duplicated content from other ecosystems: it makes them more money and hurts their competitors at the cost of possible minor reputation risk. Each NFT ecosystem is effectively a separate competing namespace system. Imagine if opensea:&#x2F;&#x2F;google.com and rarible:&#x2F;&#x2F;google.com were entirely independent and routed to servers controlled by competing organizations: chaos.<p>- There is no validation of copyright upon NFT creation. I can find someone else&#x27;s art, make an NFT and sell it. NFT ecosystems need to evolve into becoming more like auction houses: their brand&#x27;s value should be based on the trust that the art sold is not counterfeit, and are being sold by the true owner.<p>- NFTs have not succeeded in a test within the courts (afaik, lmk if you have an example of this). NFTs grant no legal rights to the holder. If NFTs granted the exclusive right to license that content AND courts enforced that right, they could be immensely valuable. There is no unified &quot;IP Registry&quot; that I can find a picture&#x2F;audio&#x2F;video on the internet and look up who the current owner is to contact for licensing. This is the killer app for NFTs IMO, but whether courts will play along with code-as-law has not been legally validated yet.<p>Fortunately for NFTs, non of these are technically insurmountable. Maybe there are some smaller ecosystems that have better designs, but it seems the big players are all taking the easy path and building a fragile foundation for ownership.
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iskanderover 3 years ago
I think what Stephen misses in his campaign against crypto is that the old ideals have already been coopted and smothered with the corporatization of the web and splintering of what was a decentralized ecosystem into a megacorp walled gardens. I know there&#x27;s a tiny community of non-crypto decentralized web advocates and I hope they win. But, the main force for a return to decentralization is in crypto and the only realistic alternative to a web3 future is one where everything is a property of Google, Facebook, Microsoft, &amp;c
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streamofdigitsover 3 years ago
Surely somewhere beyond the wall street grifters, the silicon valley data slurpers and the cryptomaniacs there is a fintech community that is actually worth being part of?
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casi18over 3 years ago
&gt; &quot;Information doesn&#x27;t want to be free anymore&quot;<p>“Information Wants To Be Free. Information also wants to be expensive....That tension will not go away” - Stuart Brand<p>Think about the whole quote and NFTs will make more sense to you.<p>NFT != DRM<p>go wild, right click and torrent. i&#x27;ll send you my nft images myself if you want them. the signatures and the economic security of that signature taking place is valuable. there is no scarcity of information in NFTs.<p>these takes are getting so bad, misunderstanding the point so much im not sure how we get people aligned in the discussion at this point. but in the words of satoshi “If you don’t believe it or don’t get it, I don’t have the time to try to convince you, sorry.”
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axbytgover 3 years ago
&quot;A lot of us older grizzled engineers came from an open source culture that, at least aspirationally, built software around ideas of abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality&quot;<p>I can&#x27;t square this type of thinking with actual analysis. Some tech bro is making $225k arbing AVAX every day? I can literally go and check out his contract on chain. I can deploy it myself! How is that anything but abundance, universal access, and equality?<p>TBH if you check out this guys tweets its like 70% crypto stuff, but anti crypto. I think he found his social echo chamber and is exulting in the attention.
pphyschover 3 years ago
It is worth ruminating on how this 21st century Tinkerbell Griftopia started.<p>Most of the proponents would have grown up roughly within the period 1991-2008. After the Cold War, before the Global Financial Crisis (GFC). The zenith of neoliberalism. The globalized USD seemed invincible, a worldwide Tinkerbell.<p>Then the GFC happened. The USD-based system was not infallible after all.<p>But it is hard to overcome our conditioning. Rather than evolve beyond the financial Tinkerbell mindset, increasing numbers of disillusioned have looked for a new Tinkerbell to believe in. Just listen to one of their slogans: &quot;Fix the money, fix the world&quot;. Bitcoin happened to pop up also in 2008. The stage was set for a Tinkerbell revolution.<p>My prediction is that the money will never be &quot;fixed&quot;, and the global economy will continue to migrate away from the free-market financial Tinkerbell model of the last 75 years and towards computer-driven allocation and trading systems between sovereign governments and global corporations. For example, Ford Motor just inked a (non-binding) partnership with Global Foundries for car chips. Expect to see a lot more of these bilateral economic partnerships and less free-market chaos over the coming decades.
127over 3 years ago
Seems to me there&#x27;s a conversation about the technology and conversation about how people react to that technology. Would be nice to talk about only the technology, but I guess in this case the social dimension is impossible to separate.
trevynover 3 years ago
I think he missed the part where the crypto <i>infrastructure</i> is aggressively based on open-source, abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality.<p>The current &quot;assets&quot; that are traded are indeed meaningless, as is most of what people buy with money beyond food and basic shelter. This is what initial post-scarcity looks like: people being ridiculous with assets because they realize that assets themselves are ridiculous, because post-scarcity.<p>We&#x27;re in a transition period, a lot of old structures don&#x27;t work anymore. We&#x27;re just starting to rebuild critical functions using new ways of thinking. One of my favorite examples: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cryptoforthehomeless.org&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cryptoforthehomeless.org&#x2F;</a>
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typonover 3 years ago
Not only is the article completely on point, the writing is marvelous
betwixthewiresover 3 years ago
How exactly is cryptocurrency disconnected from classical economics?
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snek_caseover 3 years ago
This writing is truly poetic :&#x27;)
nathiasover 3 years ago
Yes, the bankster grandpa Dahl is right. Crypto is not for you, it is not for the very wealthy old americans that have build the &#x27;open&#x27; web of platforms and sucked the value out of all the corners of the Earth. It&#x27;s for the rest of us.
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convexfunctionover 3 years ago
Very weird to frame crypto as <i>contrasting with</i> &quot;an open source culture that, at least aspirationally, built software around ideas of abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality&quot;. Were the &quot;older grizzled engineers&quot; all literal communists or what?
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darawkover 3 years ago
&gt; A lot of us older grizzled engineers came from an open source culture that, at least aspirationally, built software around ideas of abundance, post-scarcity, universal access, and equality. We may not have always succeeded in achieving such goals, but these ideas informed much of what we now take for granted as the open source substrate that powers well … everything.<p>Lol. And how is that working out for you with the modern internet? I came from this period as well, and I believe in these ideals. But scarcity is a fact of the world, and it is going to exist on the internet whether we like it or not. The only choice we have is whether that scarcity exists in centralized servers and closed protocols, or whether it exists on top of open, decentralized ones. The &quot;post scarcity internet&quot; is a ship that sailed two decades ago, or more.<p>&gt; Much ink has been spilled describing the technical internals of NFTs, and about as equal as much ink has been spent on obscurantism and decentralized woo woo to explain why the internals don’t matter. There is very little common ground on such debates because to the faithful the value of NFTs is a presuppositional truth instilled in them in the revelation of them making money off them. And simultaneously the non-believers can “right-click” or Torrent any NFT as a statement of the rejection of the ontological status of playing word games with the term “own”.<p>I agree with all the author&#x27;s criticisms of NFTs. However, they all apply equally well to every piece of art ever created. A context in which I also agree with them. NFTs are no more or less stupid than the art market generally. I&#x27;m not particularly into art myself, but the art market has a very long history of existing and operating relatively smoothly. Any decent modern day painter could make you a passable copy of Starry Night, but that doesn&#x27;t make the original any less valuable.<p>&gt; There’s nothing new under the sun and the phenomenon of self-perpetuating faith-based economic schemes are well known to exist, there’s even a term: the Tinkerbell Effect. The phenomenon where things that are thought to exist only because people believe in them. The crypto acolytes really believe they can will into existence a whole new epistemé of value detached from the classical economics of the previous order. And that’s an idea that’s not without some historical precedence. The first book about virality of mania was written by the Scottish journalist Charles Mackay back in 1841 (See Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds), and to this day it remains the definitive reference on crypto mania because human nature remains largely invariant across the ages.<p>This was a totally valid criticism in 2013. Just as this criticism was valid of the internet in 2001. It is not valid today. Even if you believe crypto will never offer any transactional utility to anyone, assets like gold derive 99% of their value from their utility as hedges. Ultimately, that is not an economic truth, it is a <i>social</i> truth. People don&#x27;t like that - they desperately want their assets to have some mathematical, provable value to them. But they don&#x27;t. Some assets really are equal to their discounted future cash flows. Other assets, like gold and bitcoin, derive their value from inter-subjective social consensus. That does not make them illegitimate, any more than the meaning of words or handshake greetings are illegitimate.<p>&gt; But at the same time, it must be understood that many of us in other intellectual traditions don’t look at the Tinkerbell Griftopia and see a promised land where we sit on a golden throne of monkey JPEGs. We see crypto as a mob of misguided fools repeating the ecological disaster of Easter Island on a global scale for the sole purpose of selling man-child themed Neopets. And some of us in the old guard think that’s not a future we want to see realized<p>It&#x27;s amusing to me that people lean so hard into the environmental argument. This argument will likely continue to be valid for Bitcoin, but it won&#x27;t be for Ethereum, and most of the stuff this guy is criticizing lives on top of Ethereum. Hitching your wagon to a contingent, ephemeral feature of the technology who&#x27;s obsolescence is already planned seems like a major tactical error to me. But go ahead.
woahover 3 years ago
This dude really pumps out the rambly anti-crypto takes. Too bad HN upvotes are not a cryptocurrency or he&#x27;d be rich
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colesantiagoover 3 years ago
Devil&#x27;s Advocate: Do cryptocurrencies have _any_ legitimate use case?<p>I can see that some newer and non-mineable coins, Solana, Avalanche, Hedera, XRP, XLM, etc don&#x27;t have mining issues that the big coins (BTC, ETH, Chia, etc) have.<p>Is what I am seeing from critics that there has been absolutely no progress whatsoever in this space?
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counternotionsover 3 years ago
Reading this, nodded along mostly in agreement until the author attempted to compare the crypto community to &quot;Scientology and their beliefs about alien thetans and e-meters&quot;... come on, that&#x27;s a dubious stretch in logic and with that one mean comment makes his points, as a whole, much less credible.
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demygaleover 3 years ago
From the article: &quot;But truly that is the message of the Andersen folktale, that power begets the capacity to inspire delusion in the masses.&quot;<p>Does the &quot;Andersen folktale&quot; refer to Tinkerbell? Has nothing to do with the merit of the article or his argument, but Tinkerbell was a character invented by J.M. Barrie for Peter Pan and not a folktale at all.
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reedf1over 3 years ago
It&#x27;s hard to take takes like this seriously when they get the basic premise wrong. It&#x27;s flowery and cute but its a lot of writing with very little substance.
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