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We only talk about the third attack on Pearl Harbor

177 pointsby stanriversover 3 years ago

17 comments

ceejayozover 3 years ago
&gt; However, once again, politics and dismissal of “unfair” tactics led to a lack of bolstered defense at Pearl Habor and an unwillingness to restructure the U.S. Navy.<p>We still haven&#x27;t learned from this.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Millennium_Challenge_2002" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Millennium_Challenge_2002</a><p>&quot;After the war game was restarted, its participants were forced to follow a script drafted to ensure a Blue Force victory. Among other rules imposed by this script, Red Force was ordered to turn on their anti-aircraft radar in order for them to be destroyed, and during a combined parachute assault by the 82nd Airborne Division and Marines air assaulting on the then new and still controversial CV-22, Van Riper&#x27;s forces were ordered not to shoot down any of the approaching aircraft. Van Riper also claimed that exercise officials denied him the opportunity to use his own tactics and ideas against Blue Force, and that they also ordered Red Force not to use certain weapons systems against Blue Force and even ordered the location of Red Force units to be revealed.&quot;
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KineticLensmanover 3 years ago
For me one of the best things about the article is the link to the awesome 32-page WWII OSS sabotage manual [0]. Section 11 (General Interference with Organisations and Production) is a great list of behaviours and anti-patterns that seem to exist in dysfunctional organisations and individuals. E.g.<p><i>If possible, join or help organize a group for presenting employee problems to the management. See that the procedures adopted are as inconvenient as possible for the management, involving the presence of a large number of employees at each presentation, entailing more than one meeting for each grievance, bringing up problems which are largely imaginary, and so on.</i><p>and<p><i>Insist on perfect work in relatively unimportant products; send back for refinishing those which have the least flaw. Approve other defective parts whose flaws are not visible to the naked eye.</i><p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gutenberg.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;26184&#x2F;page-images&#x2F;26184-images.pdf" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.gutenberg.org&#x2F;files&#x2F;26184&#x2F;page-images&#x2F;26184-imag...</a>
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JoeAltmaierover 3 years ago
Unfair tactics! It&#x27;s endemic in military exercises that anything that doesn&#x27;t follow the script is suppressed.<p>My son was &#x27;insurgent leader&#x27; for an Army exercise in Korea. His team of 6 used various tactics (inside information between exercises gained from friends in the camp; feints; bribing their way in through the back gate) and ultimately got a &#x27;suicide bomber&#x27; into the command tent. After that they went round behind the defenders and only stopped when they ran out of simulated ammo. 6 guys defeated a company.<p>There was curiously no &#x27;after action review&#x27;, and further exercises were scripted if I remember right.<p>Anyway yeah, nobody wants that kind of result on the record.
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cushychickenover 3 years ago
Been listening to Dan Carlin&#x27;s podcast series on the Imperial Japanese military in WWII. (It&#x27;s six parts, and about 20 hours long at this point.) Coincidentally, I just listened to the part about the attack on Pearl Harbor yesterday.<p>He didn&#x27;t mention any of these failed wargames in the podcast. Reading about it now gives a lot more context on why the commander in chief of the US Navy at Pearl Harbor knew his head was going to roll following the Japanese attack.
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nicoburnsover 3 years ago
One has to wonder whether the Japanese would have thought up this strategy (or considered it feasible) had the Americans not practiced it and proved it for them.<p>It seems worryingly common for this kind of simulation to ironically lead to disaster. Chernobyl would be another example (the explosion happened during a safety test). And it&#x27;s possible that the coronavirus pandemic is another (the virus may have accidentally leaked from &quot;gain of function&quot; experiments designed to give us insight into how to respond should such a virus evolve naturally).
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rkk3over 3 years ago
Surprised there is no mention that during this period 1932 and 1938 the US was de-militarized! In 1939 the The US had the 17th largest Army in the world by size, and half of it was the national guard.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20180124005751&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ssi.armywarcollege.edu&#x2F;pubs&#x2F;summary.cfm?q=358" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.archive.org&#x2F;web&#x2F;20180124005751&#x2F;http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ssi.armywa...</a>
taconover 3 years ago
In 1979 I got a small VIP tour of Pearl Harbor from the Navy. They made sure we understood that the Japanese attack was effective, but far from perfect. I remember they mentioned three strategic mistakes by the Japanese:<p>1. They did not hit any submarine facilities, so the US submarines continued to operate normally.<p>2. They did not hit any of the dry dock facilities, so almost all the damaged ships were repaired in place without having to be towed back to the west coast.<p>3. They did not hit the fuel depots, so the remaining fleet had plenty of fuel ready to go.<p>And, of course, the carriers were out on operations, which was a critical miss, as it turned out.
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choegerover 3 years ago
What&#x27;s striking here is the Japanese trust into their own intel. If someone came up to me with a plan for a &quot;surprise&quot; attack that the defender had wargamed not once but twice and wouldn&#x27;t know about any countermeasures I would be highly suspicious of a trap.<p>For instance, how did Japan not consider that the US Navy deployed top secret radar after the first wargame that then perfectly warned about the second attack? You can easily stack multiple wargames in one. Another option could have been a submarine screen that &quot;intercepted&quot; the attacking force.
jleyankover 3 years ago
The uk also did it for real at Taranto in 1940. So there were lots of examples to draw from. Perhaps the magnitude of success stemmed from the insight by genda and onishi to put the carriers together and train for mass attacks.
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xenocratusover 3 years ago
Previous conversation on the same article: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27345075" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=27345075</a>
coldcodeover 3 years ago
A good book (very long and highly detailed) is: The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945.<p>You can really see how each side wound up where it did. Neither side wanted war, the Japanese all assumed they would lose, but because of the immediate successes thought maybe they were wrong. Even terrible translations and a lack of understand of different cultures had a large role.
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retracover 3 years ago
This is perhaps tangential, but since it was all part of the same operation, maybe it is fitting. We also tend to only talk about Pearl Harbor. It was but one piece of a much larger strategy for the Japanese.<p>On Dec 7 or 8th over a roughly 12 hour period, Imperial Japan launched simultaneous invasions of Thailand, the Philippines, Hong Kong, what are now Indonesia and Malaysia, and a half-dozen small islands including Guam and Wake, with about a million soldiers across a theatre spanning some 8000 miles. Allied control in Asia was essentially eliminated within two months. A systematic, wilful, underestimation of the Japanese potential before their flood outwards is a theme throughout, from Pearl Harbor to &quot;Fortress Singapore&quot;.
david_acmover 3 years ago
If you want to visualize how the attack at Peal Harbor happened and have about 20 minutes to spare, consider watching the Montemayor video that explains how the attacks occurred, in the order they occurred, along with historical photographs.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=f6cz9gtMTeI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=f6cz9gtMTeI</a>
billfruitover 3 years ago
Also on the same morning as Pearl Harbour, Hong Kong was also attacked by the Japanese. Allies never took it back during the war, till the Japanese surrendered in 1945.
InTheArenaover 3 years ago
its important to note that the Fleet Problems (of which this was one, and there were many) also simulated sneak and non-sneak attacks against the Panama Canal, and there were multiple simulated attacks against Pearl Harbor. There were also tests of carriers acting alone, carriers acting as scouting forces, carriers acting as the head of a strike force. For anyone interested in this - I highly recommend &quot;All the Factors of Victory&quot; about Admiral Reeves. During this time period there was a deliberate and systematic effort to develop carrier aviation and tactics. Far from being some rogue effort that was suppressed for political reasons, it transformed the navy and put in place the foundations for eventually winning the war - even with a rough start. The Essex carriers (for example) where specified and laid down according to what the USA had learned from the fleet problems.<p>Why the rough start? I would point at Admiral Kimmel. Kimmel&#x27;s predecessors (Reeves and Richardson) understood that American Bases (Subic Bay, Panama Canal San Diego, Pearl Harbor - in that order) were at risk from a Japanese surprise attack. Reeves was obsessed by it - which is partially why this Fleet Problem occurred. When Reeves retired, Richardson took his place. While story goes that Richardson was fired for making the point that Pearl was vulnerable, that doesn&#x27;t appear to be the whole story. Richardson&#x27;s main complaint was not sneak attack, but rather that Pearl Harbor didn&#x27;t have the facilities to adequately service and train the fleet, and his solders would be bored during peacetime. Regardless, he was also concerned about a sneak attack against American assets.<p>Richardson was insubordinate - at one time questioning the role of congress and the president in dictating military policy - FDR fired him, and replaced him with Kimmel.<p>Kimmel on the other hand was obsessed with the Japanese population of Hawaii, particularly the risk of sabotage. Rather then focus on radar, or keeping the Fleet at Lahaina roads - where they could move freely in case of a sneak attack - he kept the fleet bottled up (save the aircraft carriers) and the planes lined up in roads.<p>Even then - the USA had put in place things like Radar and built up Pearl Harbor rapid ally enough that they could have responded if everything was perfect. But you had one force that had been at war for 8 years before the USA entered, and the other at peace time. The focus on sabotage instead of fleet defense doomed them.<p>While the Niihau incident occurred, it was obviously a far smaller problem the the Fleet burning in Honolulu.<p>Finally it needs to be noted that a ton of people expected a surprise attack. They just expected it against the forward US base (the Philippines) or Singapore<p>Ironically, the one area task force wise that that the Japanese were inspired by the USA was based on not by Fleet Problems, but instead propaganda. The story goes that the Japanese commander in charge of Planning - Minoru Genda - was watching American news reels, which showed American carriers acting in formation, in the same frame of film. While this was done for filming, Genda applied it to actual battle formations. That gave Japan enough firepower to target the entire Pacific Island, not just a single ship or even a single base.<p>The Japanese were also far more inspired by the attack on Taranto by a set of obsolete biplanes that basically wiped out Italian sea power (not that there was a ton of that) in Europe.
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ChrisMarshallNYover 3 years ago
Didn&#x27;t this get posted here, not long ago?
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wayoutthereover 3 years ago
There’s a school of thought that Pearl Harbor was intentionally left vulnerable in order to provide public justification for entering a war that it was pretty obvious we were getting drawn into anyway. The Nazis were vehemently anti-communist which means they had a significant amount of support within the US government, and overcoming that required an egregiously offensive violation of our national sovereignty (which Pearl Harbor provided).
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