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I found that college fails to live up to being “The Great Equalizer”

42 pointsby visaalsover 3 years ago

18 comments

dvtover 3 years ago
&gt; who you know than what you know<p>Yeah, the world is a social place. There&#x27;s a reason European royalty sent their kids to etiquette classes, and even these days fraternities and sororities have formals. That&#x27;s how the world works. Someone that&#x27;s <i>surprised</i> by this in their 20s or 30s was failed by their parents or immediate community and this has nothing to do with college.<p>You need to be nice to people, you need to be friendly, you need to know people, attend events, be fun and jovial, etc. Politeness and relationships are the underpinning of our entire society.<p>But if you&#x27;re introverted (like me), this takes very deliberate practice. Over the past few years, I&#x27;ve posted in every monthly &quot;who&#x27;s hiring&quot; thread here on HN as just an exercise and to meet people (mostly local to LA). I&#x27;ve met dozens of really cool entrepreneurs, fellow engineers, VPs, C-levels, and other smart folks. Most of these connections will go nowhere, but I wanted to practice being more outgoing by grabbing a beer or coffee and talking about life&#x2F;technology&#x2F;anything with strangers. I was able to put together an investor I met with a friend of mine that&#x27;s trying to raise money; was able to pitch some startup ideas to folks that worked in that domain; but more importantly grow my rolodex and become more comfortable with the art of networking.
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RivieraKidover 3 years ago
A hugely important factors behind getting a job are: being likeable, looking good, not being weird, having a good sense of humor, etc.<p>If you are in the bottom, say, 10% in these factors, employers will pick other candidates. And obviously, they won&#x27;t tell you why.
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Foobar8568over 3 years ago
Because the required level is shit. And it has been downhill since the implementation of modern math and the rejection of math in the modern era or elitist path at school. We see it everywhere and especially in France or Switzerland. 10 years old native kids who can&#x27;t read fluently. 15 years old who would write 1&#x2F;2+1&#x2F;3=2&#x2F;5. They will keep this level of skills through the end of high school and master degree thanks to grade inflation and&#x2F;or curve notation.<p>Public school is at at least 2 levels if not more. Elite will remain in their own world. Rich will just pour money on their kids education, middle class and the poor are fucked.<p>In France, most 18 years old would fail the brevet (end of middle school degree) as it was given in 1950s&#x2F;60s. All the exams are pure jokes, and we see it in international education survey (PISA or even better TIMMS, level are dropping beside for the top 5%)
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6gvONxR4sf7oover 3 years ago
Seems like college fails to live up to being “the great educator” in too many cases too. For those of you who interview new grads, what percent of the time do you interview someone with a degree in the field who can’t do the most basic things in the field? In my experience, it’s pretty high.<p>Even at the college level, education doesn’t seem to extend past “teaching to the test” horrifyingly often (horrifying, given the amount of time and money our society is spending on it).
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mettamageover 3 years ago
&gt; It’s already happening with companies like Lambda School focused on cultivating the next generation of software engineers by educating<p>Bad example. Lambda School had some pretty bad press on HN about having lower completion rates than advertised, etc.
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hardwaregeekover 3 years ago
This is why I think college should be saved for the adults. Because, sorry, this is a pretty basic lesson in adulthood. Competence is only a small part of getting hired. Contacts and charisma are a huge huge factor. If you don&#x27;t understand this, you should probably take a year or two to work, learn a bit about the world, then go to college. I&#x27;ve met so many students who have been judged purely on their grades, who then encounter the job market and are mystified to discover that their grades matter zero, zip, zilch. It&#x27;s not their fault; that&#x27;s what they&#x27;ve been taught in high school and earlier.<p>I&#x27;ve tried to explain that for 99% of CS majors, your grades do not matter. If you&#x27;re spending your time in college constantly studying and worrying about getting an A in your test because oh no your GPA will be a 3.8 otherwise, you haven&#x27;t really assessed what&#x27;s important. Go to college; do your best to learn because the material is useful and pretty neat; socialize, have fun; then find a job. That&#x27;s it. A 4.0 isn&#x27;t that important.
wayoutthereover 3 years ago
Yeah, there’s a big difference between “kid with a CS degree” and “kid who interned at Microsoft for 3 summers and knows industry dev practices well”. This is why internships matter; it doesn’t even have to be a well-known company as long as it teaches you how to work on a dev team (git, agile workflow, DevOps, cloud, etc).<p>In my experience it’s the tools and tech around working as more than a singleton. That’s the job. To be blunt, most industry jobs do not require a deep computer science background, so the content of the degree is worth less than the experience it gets you access to.
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twofornoneover 3 years ago
College was once a signal of competence. That cannot be true when you push half the population through the system; the normal distribution is still the same. Doubly so given the commodification of education, which creates perverse incentives for phenomena like grade inflation, further reducing the value of a degree as a signal.<p>The first assumption that needs to change in order to revert the status of the college degree is the well meaning but false idea that competence can be taught to anyone. It gives people a false sense of optimism which frequently results in angst, debt, and wasted years.
hammockover 3 years ago
Who taught this man that college was The Great Equalizer?<p>I was taught (for better or worse), by STEM grad parents no less, that the only college to strive for is an elite liberal arts education, and the purpose was to broaden my horizons and make connections. It <i>explicitly wasn&#x27;t</i> to decide on a career and learn hard job skills.
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visaalsover 3 years ago
After the experience of meeting the Uber driver with an degree in actuarial science unable to apply his education it shattered my rose colored glasses about how education today is &quot;The Great Equalizer&quot; and the solution to all of our problems.<p>I wanted to share these thoughts to discuss any cool ideas to bridge the gap between an education and effectively increasing opportunity for people as automation take away more and more low-skill jobs
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freedom2099over 3 years ago
Maybe this is a US problem… I graduated (Master Degree) at the 1st university of my country (Italy) for engineering 10 years ago. By graduation day I was already employed… and had the luxury of choosing the offer that inspired me the most (had more than 10 offers… basically every company I interview with made an offer). After graduation my phone kept ringing at least twice a day with companies reaching out to try to schedule an interview for months! And the best part that my education was extremely cheap! Annual university fee was less than 2k euros!
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LambdaTrainover 3 years ago
I was wondering if the question is really about the gap between education and job requirement rather than the mismatch between graduate supply v.s. position demand. The gap one is certainly an important question, but it would not be surprising that most of CS graduates does not get a job relevant to their background if &quot;the colleges supply 1000 while the open position is 100 or less&quot;.<p>With regard to the context of the article, the example that Uber driver gets a degree in acturial science does not tell much. Probably he is just doing worse than other graduates - even though he is qualified for an acturial job, the employer has tons of better candidates.
mbrodersenover 3 years ago
You are competing with other collage educated people. So assuming the tech skills are similar, other things will make or break you: communication skills, personality, looks etc.
itwranglerover 3 years ago
This thread (the HN comments) is quite interesting, as opposed to the article which says pretty much nothing and is an email harvesting exercise.. If you&#x27;re going make a statement such as the title (particularly prefixed with I) then you better say something about your own experience and why you believe your &#x27;title proposition&#x27; is true.. if not, and you&#x27;re not just &#x27;fishing&#x27; (for hits and&#x2F;or email addresses), why bother?
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rayinerover 3 years ago
The economy that mobilized on a dime to defeat Nazi Germany and sent men to the moon had only 5% of adults with a college degree. Is it so much more complex now that kids need four more expensive years of education? And if it is more complex, is college as currently structured the cheapest way to develop those additional skills?
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yardieover 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve never seen companies work so hard to keep applicants away as much as they do today. Boomers are retiring, millenials are looking to fill those roles, X and Z are barely a rounding error (sorry to say). And yet the job descriptions could fill a journal going on about company culture, requirements, ideal candidate, etc. So when a job posting goes up that requires a college degree or equivalent experience you soon learn they really want the later. And if you could get experience without the expensive time wasting degree then what was the point?
Olognover 3 years ago
I have worked in IT for a long time, but have taken night and weekend college classes over the years. I took a CS 3xx class with mostly college seniors a few years ago. Most were CS majors. Once a bunch of us were outside talking, and I said something about software version control. The person I was talking to said &quot;what&#x27;s that?&quot; I asked the others if they knew what software version control was. None knew. I said, &quot;you know, like git&quot;. None of them knew what git was. Some of them were months from graduating and looking for a job as a programmer.
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lordnachoover 3 years ago
Here&#x27;s what a degree is.<p>You read a bunch of books. You go to lectures. You answer questions to see if you understood the material.<p>The content is entirely in the public domain. You can read the same content as I did and understand how to build a radio, a bridge, etc, just like me. There are literally no secrets below phd level, and nowadays you even have easy access to multiple explanations of the same ideas.<p>There isn&#x27;t even that much teaching, and I say that having attended multiple 2-on-1 tutorials each week for close to 100 weeks. So about 3-400 hours total contact time. Add to that quite a few hours studying for those tutorials, maybe 4 hours for each hour of contact? Depends on how diligent you were.<p>Compare that to my work, where I&#x27;ve regularly worked 60-80 hour weeks for years and years, of which maybe 40 hours was sitting next to a professional superior. Basically in your first months you spend more time sitting next to an expert than your entire degree. My non-contact hours, where I&#x27;d read about finance, was similar: after not very long I&#x27;d done a similar amount of non-contact work such as reading a textbook.<p>My point is that there&#x27;s no way that university can qualify you for work. Yes, there are jobs that you need specific degrees to get, but even in those jobs you are normally not considered anything but a junior, entry-level person when you finish the course. You&#x27;re literally not a lawyer when you finish a law degree, and not an engineer when you get your Master of Engineering (like me).<p>So why do employers want to hire graduates, especially graduates of specific universities and courses?<p>The reason is they think there&#x27;s a degree to which people who got into top universities in certain courses are capable of learning the necessary material for a new profession. The material may be completely different from what the person studied, in fact it most often is just so. As what I wrote above explains, it should not take long to cover an equivalent amount of material.<p>Computer Science may well be the only exception to this rule. On CS courses (I&#x27;ve looked over the shoulder of a couple of students, and I know a professor) people actually do things with a rather large overlap with professional coding. For instance, when I was in uni I built a toy radio and a toy bridge using toy tools. A CS student uses the same Git to version control his stuff, and the same compilers to build them. There&#x27;s a number of CS labs that maintain actual production code that people use.<p>This probably means a CS student has a shorter spin-up period, but they still hit the professional time dynamics I mentioned: get a coding job and you&#x27;ll learn a lot about coding that you didn&#x27;t learn on the course, really fast.<p>There are also some economic issues about degrees.<p>There&#x27;s a fairly strong adverse signalling effect: if you get a degree but you don&#x27;t find a job reasonably fast, or you lost your job, why is that? Did other employers interview you and discover some sort of attitude problem? Perhaps I should just interview the regular new grads. You definitely don&#x27;t know what a professional knows, and I can train up someone smart, and there&#x27;s plenty of smart kids coming out of uni.<p>The same goes for your uber driver: if they gave up on getting an actuary job, which is one of the highest paying jobs in society and well worth trying to persevere at, why is that? If he&#x27;s given up, why would I back him? It&#x27;s an unfortunate dynamic, but it&#x27;s definitely there.<p>Regarding &quot;who you know, not what you know&quot;, there&#x27;s a good explanation for that as well.<p>If you have a field of people who are &quot;good enough&quot;, and you aren&#x27;t short of them, and they&#x27;re not easily differentiable, the employer might as well hire his nephew (this is where the term nepotism comes from). And because of the dynamic explained, there&#x27;s an awfully large field of good enough people: they are mostly a blank slate anyway, having shown just a bit of promise. Of course you&#x27;ll never know if your nephew was actually among the best, but it will certainly seem that way once he starts gaining experience.<p>This is why we get a lot of famous peoples&#x27; kids breaking into fields like acting, where there&#x27;s a small number of jobs for a large field of people who could actually do the job. (Though I hesitate to use the same explanation in competitive sports like soccer, where there&#x27;s a very strong differentiation. Eg Frank Lampard didn&#x27;t need his uncle to put him on the team, he&#x27;d have gotten there anyway.)