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The Drupal Crisis

266 pointsby ddwover 13 years ago

25 comments

cal5kover 13 years ago
The reality is that this sort of bloat happens in every mature software project. Some of it will get fixed, some of it will persist. You take the good with the bad, but at least there IS a community behind the project.<p>However, what Drupal has going for it right now is critical mass. It has finally gained widespread acceptance with government agencies and large companies... it's an exciting time to be part of the community, and to a large degree this can be attributed to having Acquia really champion the project with enterprise clients. No other company was previously capable of doing this. Because of this singular fact, Drupal will remain relevant for many years to come.<p>The only reason this sort of discussion is even able to happen is because the Drupal project is open source... can you imagine how much shit is buried deep within every single product OpenText, for example, maintains? Have you ever tried to do anything truly custom with Microsoft Sharepoint?<p>Let's try to fix the problems, but let's also recognize that Drupal has a lot going for it at the moment.
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justincormackover 13 years ago
The whole cms product category is in crisis. Developers would rather use frameworks, and testable deployable code. The inexperienced user wants something very simple, but secure, so they will chooses hosted solutions, wordpress.com hosted wordpress is now 50% of installs. Other cloud solutions will start to grow. The commercial cms market is a mess too, too many products, mostly very old architecturally, and in terms of code. And then everyone has their own in house solutions. Even the rise of statically hosted git based blog platforms shows signs of the problems.
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Spyro7over 13 years ago
I started with Drupal around the time version 4.7 came out, and I always thought that the project would have done better for itself by focusing more on its potential as a framework rather than a CMS.<p>Drupal has always seemed to have something of an identity crises. Some people think of it as a fully-featured CMS, some think of it as a framework or platform, and then you have a ton of people just trying to use it as a more flexible blog.<p>I think that when the community exploded in size, it had only really begun to wrestle with the identity question. The lack of some definite focus as Drupal's popularity expanded probably contributed to the current situation.<p>Frankly, I think that the majority of the current problems would be solved by trimming all of the fat from the core. That would allow the core developers to focus on making the core fast, stable, and flexible. Let the wider community maintain and provide any extra functionality.
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ethankover 13 years ago
Having supervised or been involved in the build of about 300 Drupal sites I can say:<p>Small Core!<p>Seriously, since I didn't have to use Drupal I haven't in new projects. I found that the conflating of configuration in the database (at least in D6) made true test-driven development and agile maintenance a chore. It made good development processes more difficult than necessary.<p>Drush went a long way toward fixing this, as did Features and a few others, but it always felt like it was stuff added to Core to remove stuff from Core. That always felt clumsy to me.<p>I owe Drupal a huge amount in terms of how its use helped what I did and the artists we did it with, but the project, as most do, has grown too big at this point. It needs a reset and a focus on deployable quality, scalability and additive functionality rather than subtractive.
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David_Rothsteinover 13 years ago
Note that the original "Drupal Crisis" blog post is already a few weeks old, and a lot has happened since then.<p>For example, the author wrote this shortly afterwards: <a href="http://www.unleashedmind.com/en/blog/sun/crisis-conclusions" rel="nofollow">http://www.unleashedmind.com/en/blog/sun/crisis-conclusions</a><p>You'll want to read that (and especially the various drupal.org issues linked to within it) for a more nuanced understanding of the situation.<p>Otherwise you are not getting anything remotely resembling an accurate view of the larger Drupal community's thoughts on this topic.
haloover 13 years ago
Number of open bugs is a poor measurement of software quality. Anyone who has seen the bug-tracker of a large project will testify to that fact. If anything, a large number of open bugs is an indicator of a large, popular and mature product.<p>Mozilla's Bugzilla currently has 46951 open bugs within Firefox and Core.<p>(Disclaimer: I know little about Drupal. I'm only responding to the argument itself, which is a fairly common fallacy)
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snorkelover 13 years ago
So yet another rant bemoaning Drupal's internals wanting a more elegantly decoupled internal architecture. Decoupling Drupal's internals in the ways suggested would be no easy feat and a fool's errand to even try. What's the objective? "So we can have more reasonable unit tests." That's sort of hilarious. Drupal is not exactly a test-driven culture. "So we can reuse these components in other frameworks." Seriously? You want to reuse Drupal's theme registry some place else, like wanting your bike, your car, and your golf cart to have the same size wheels because that'd be more convenient for you?<p>Drupal project leads need to avoid getting distracted by this noise. Drupal is not and should not try to be an architectural masterpiece because the typical Drupal adopter has no idea what a unit test is anyway. Addressing these complaints will add no value for the typical Drupal user. Drupal is utilitarian. Drupal fulfills the need to slap together a web site quick and make it pretty, and you don't want to know what's going on underneath. If you want architecture and unit tests then there are plenty of other frameworks out there to consider instead.
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ineedtosleepover 13 years ago
Reminds me of Jeff Eaton's talk at Drupalcon this year (<a href="http://lanyrd.com/2011/drupalcon-london/sgkbz/" rel="nofollow">http://lanyrd.com/2011/drupalcon-london/sgkbz/</a>).<p>Personally, I think Drupal needs to be forked already and stripped of its non-essentials. As much as I like the Drupal community, it's always felt extremely rigid and even more so when Drupal 7 was finally released.<p>In one of the Drupal Camps for the release of D7, more often than not I would overhear PMs and developers saying things to the extend of, "I will not touch D7 or its documentation until 6 months from now." It's been around 8 months now since then, and not once have I had to deal with a Drupal 7 site (as all of them were D6).
BenSSover 13 years ago
I don't follow the politics behind the project, but to me the biggest indicator of something awry was D7 still not being acceptable for a production site. It's much more fragile than D6 and the post clearly illustrates why, with the issue counts.<p>I recently had to help a rather technical client simply get D7 -running- with common modules. They'd have been better off simply installing D6, which they'd done before without any voodoo needed.
rb2k_over 13 years ago
While this is mainly about technical issues, it does mention Acquia/Dries, so I'll give my 2 cents to that part:<p>There is a lot of FUD these days about Dries and Acquia's role in Drupal. Dries wrote some blogposts that try to answer the most common questions people have.<p>The criticism about the bug count explosion in Drupal has already been addresses with an "Issue queue thresholds for Drupal core":<p><a href="http://buytaert.net/issue-queue-thresholds-for-drupal-core" rel="nofollow">http://buytaert.net/issue-queue-thresholds-for-drupal-core</a><p>The role of Acquia in all of this: "Does Acquia suck up all the Drupal talent?":<p><a href="http://buytaert.net/does-acquia-suck-up-all-the-drupal-talent" rel="nofollow">http://buytaert.net/does-acquia-suck-up-all-the-drupal-talen...</a><p>"Why Acquia acquired Cyrve and GVS":<p><a href="http://buytaert.net/why-acquia-acquired-cyrve-and-gvs" rel="nofollow">http://buytaert.net/why-acquia-acquired-cyrve-and-gvs</a><p>Full disclosure: I work for Acquia. Not directly on the Drupal codebase, but I have a tech position. They really are a good people with the best intensions for the community and Drupal. They try to give back by e.g. free trainings, sponsoring camps and hackathons, having "gardening days" where people work on anything (old modules, new modules, core bugs, ...) that they think is needs some work, free hosting for any Drupal community project/blog/website and many many things more.
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hippichover 13 years ago
I just started to do new projects with D7 (was playing with D7 since its release, but only now got new commercial project at hands).<p>While everybody complains about bloat, you can turn off most of it. But new developer features just awesome!<p>For example, I had hard time incorporating CDN into D6 heavy loaded project. Now it is easy since D7 support different backends for storing files (via wrapping PHP streams)! You no longer need to rewrite URLs to point to correct CDN location. Same goes to private/public files. Now managing what to allow user to download and what should go through access control much easier.<p>New DB abstraction functions. While they are nowhere close to full blown ORMs, but they provide enough abstraction and most important - your modules can plug into process of executing SQL queries! (it was possible in D6, but in D6 you had to work with raw text, which was very annoying and prone to errors).<p>As for bloat... They moved a lot of often used modules in core. Fields in core - idk. I can imaging projects which do not need CCK, but from my practice - every single commercial project required CCK. So for me personally Fields in core make perfect sense.<p>So. Even if there are a lot of bugs still open - it is fine. D7 is really good product which helps with building scalable and hackable (in good sense) projects.
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JonnieCacheover 13 years ago
Sounds like what they need is a wycats type figure to ride into the breach and clean house for them. Rails could easily have ended up in this situation if it weren't for the efforts of yehuda, and obviously others.
nowarninglabelover 13 years ago
Sun has very good points, but fortunately movement has really begin to shift towards moving cruft out of core, even just recently with initiatives to get rid of the PHP filter among other things. Along with it, Dashboard should go, especially considering that Homebox was a perfectly adequate contrib module which users could be pointed to.<p>I do disagree with calling out Acquia though, as all the infusion of cash from large institutions adopting Drupal that has come from having a big name to point to is overall helpful for long-term development.<p>I don't think he's ranting so much as proposing the way forward, and fortunately, people have started listening. I think sun was at the tipping point and now things will finally begin moving steadily towards small core.
iamjoshuaover 13 years ago
I've worked with Drupal since 4.7 on many projects. I was excited for the release of Drupal 7, but was amazed at how bloated it was. I've completely given up on Drupal now. You WILL spend more time working against it's api then you would just building something custom with a traditional framework.<p>Drupal should really look at codeigniter/expression engine for an example of a core/platform separation that works really well.
robryanover 13 years ago
Good example of what happens over time when a project says yes a lot more often than no. Sounds like a almost impossible task to maintain and probably not an easy beast to use and get good performance out of.<p>Might be similar to something like zen art which is stuck with a lot if bad php4 practices and horrible organization. Add to that a vaporware rewrite.
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bengtanover 13 years ago
Here's some follow-up from a somewhat different cohort.<p>Does Acquia exert inappropriate influence on Drupal core?<p><a href="http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999" rel="nofollow">http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999</a>
smhover 13 years ago
Reminds me of this: <a href="http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.jwz.org/doc/cadt.html</a> I wonder why this seems to happen in some open-source projects and not in others?
crusoeover 13 years ago
May i introduce you to the danish Content-Management Framework "TYPO3" which is very successful and widespread all around Europe. Currently, it is being rebuilt from scratch using the home-made PHP Framework "FLOW3" (this one is huge!). Curious people may have a look at the TYPO3 main page [1] as well as the FLOW3 page [2]. Give it a try, it would really deserve it!<p>[1] <a href="http://typo3.org" rel="nofollow">http://typo3.org</a> [2] <a href="http://flow3.typo3.org" rel="nofollow">http://flow3.typo3.org</a>
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robryanover 13 years ago
Those who use it, how does it compare to joomla? Joomla is the closest I have come to having to maintain a full blown php cms and I found that to be quiet bloated as well.
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wyclifover 13 years ago
<i>We need to stop painting lipstick on a giant pig</i><p>Perfect analogy regarding the state of this project.
mberningover 13 years ago
It's a lot more fun to write new code than it is to fix and refactor old code.
ashconnorover 13 years ago
Bug bounties? But then the question is "Where will the cash come from?"
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arvinjoarover 13 years ago
Seems like they have to do what Apple did when they changed their OS core. Backward compatibility will probably have to be an afterthought if the project is to survive.
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AlexUAover 13 years ago
I think it's important to note here that this isn't just about "is core bloated" it's also about the new elephant that has emerged at the center of Drupal's ecosystem: Acquia. I think Nedjo (a permanent member of the Drupal Association) puts it best here (<a href="http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999#comment-575044" rel="nofollow">http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999#comment-575044</a> ) and here ( <a href="http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999#comment-580704" rel="nofollow">http://groups.drupal.org/node/170999#comment-580704</a> )<p>Some quotes from those two comments: "What Acquia means for the overall Drupal project is a question that's key for the project's future.<p>Currently 3 of 8 Drupal Association (VZW) board members are on staff at Acquia. This is not due to Acquia stacking the board with its own people. All three have been active in the DA since its early days, before Acquia even existed. Rather, in my view, it is one of many reflections of the convergence of Dries' roles and choices in various domains of the Drupal project: in the Association, in Acquia, and in Drupal core. Sure, this convergence has benefits. But it also has major risks that we all need to be cognizant of and active in addressing.<p>The influence of Acquia (or another company) on Drupal core may sometimes be explicit, and it's worth looking at specific patches that may or may not reflect this issue. But I think much more to the point are the larger factors of scale, resources, access, and influence.<p>By analogy, there's the name Drupal itself. We all through our participation and contribution help build meaning for the name, but ultimately its use is controlled individually by its trademark owner, Dries. Any company or individual may apply for a license to use the trademark for commercial purposes, subject to the conditions, which include notice that the requirements for usage may change. Basing a major company, product, or service off an external trademark implies some risk. Does Acquia have differential access to the trademark based on Dries' ownership of both Acquia and the trademark? In practice, the most high profile private branding of Drupal products and services are mainly in Acquia: Drupal Gardens, Acquia Drupal.<p>"In approving or rejecting proposals and patches, [Dries] gives special weight to comments made by people he trusts and respects for their past contributions to Drupal." About Drupal: Core Developers.) In practice, Dries has gathered around him in Acquia an ever growing number of the core code contributors he most trusts and respects. Included in this pattern are core branch maintainers--for both Drupal 6 and Drupal 7, the individuals Dries chose as branch maintainers were subsequently brought onto staff at Acquia. In Angie (Webchick)'s case, her work at Acquia looks a lot like a continuation of her previous work as a core maintainer.<p>Even with a high level of technical skill and insight, getting even a minor change into Drupal core can require months of work (assuming you aren't in the elite ranks of IRC superstardom). Contributing larger changes - like significantly rewriting a major API system - is a huge investment. Before making such an investment, any company would have to have a high degree of confidence in its likeliness of success.<p>Acquia has on staff all current committers to Drupal core, and talent to burn, including a lot of the inner circle of Drupal core development, backed by venture capital and a presence in every main area of Drupal products and services. Does this in itself mean that all of Acquia's core initiatives will go in while those of other companies will languish? No. Does it mean that Acquia is uniquely positioned to invest in long term core development, to shape Drupal's future with a degree of confidence that others can only dream of? I think the answer's clear: of course it does."
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schiptsovover 13 years ago
May be its time is just over? I mean that the time of personal CMS or blogs or just small personal sites is definitely over.<p>For Drupal - they got lost momentum, lost a lot of active developers, lost fans, lost community. The game, when everyone wants his own site in the net, is over. Enjoy your FB page. ^_^<p>I think you can see the same situation of stagnation in Wordpress also, and, I hope, finally, in PHP world in general. ^_^
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