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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

420 pointsby yoeloover 3 years ago

41 comments

4ec0755f5522over 3 years ago
When I was very young I worked a tough job that had a mandatory union and it was quite terrible &#x2F; weak. Working conditions were pretty bad, physical labor, etc. But it was not until I worked a job with no union that I realized every element of that job that didn&#x27;t suck was due to the union. For example we had supervisors but they didn&#x27;t follow you around and micromanage you. You were just expected to do your job. If you didn&#x27;t you would be reprimanded of course, but no one was on your case at all. Supervisors had to show you a base level of respect: there were rules on that stuff. There were a lot of rules, actually, and even though the union didn&#x27;t have a lot of power I&#x27;m pretty sure every single positive one, anything that gave employees even a sliver of autonomy and power, were things that the union fought for and got for us.<p>I still was kind of anti-union after that. &quot;Anti Union&quot; is the wrong phrasing, it was more... I was very suspicious of their structure, their own profit motive(s) etc. People working for the union had it so much better than the people actually doing the work, and we were the ones paying for and funding it, right? That aspect of it I never got over, but I now think that it may have been the wrong point of view.<p>I have recently come around full swing and am 100% pro union. And it is stories like this. Starbucks, Google, Amazon, these companies will spend millions to fight unions. This is prima facie evidence to me that unions benefit workers. These companies all talk the same talk: &quot;we believe companies work best when team members can work directly with the company with no union in the way&quot;. As though Amazon warehouse workers have some kind of communication path to improve their working conditions when they are being managed and fired by an AI. What a buncha fkn BS.<p>Things cost. Good things cost money. You are paying for someone to fight for your interests and not the company&#x27;s interest. Maybe that is worth paying for. And if you don&#x27;t pay money to a union to fight you pay with your physical health, your safety, your respect, your mental health. If you work for Amazon you pay with your life when they threaten to fire you if you try to leave in order to hide from a hurricane. We should all be in unions.
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yupper32over 3 years ago
A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren&#x27;t pushing for unions.<p>For me it&#x27;s simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that?<p>Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I&#x27;m being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.
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ravenstineover 3 years ago
While my personal opinion is that, in today&#x27;s age, many unions suck and that some industries need unions more than others, employers who even think they should psy-op their employees into action&#x2F;inaction for the benefit of the employer should get screwed.<p>I&#x27;ve heard some great things about how Google does things differently to create a better workplace for engineers and employees in general, but I&#x27;d seriously think thrice before taking a job there for many reasons including this one.
bradleyjgover 3 years ago
It’s a real shame that the middle and upper classes in the US have abandoned having their teens work in favor of various, expensive, college application boosting fluff.<p>I went to work at McDonalds at age 15 and was part of a union. I have direct experience with what that is like. I don’t need to get my knowledge on the subject from flamewars between people pushing ideological agendas (most of whom themselves have apparently never had direct experience.)
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jedbergover 3 years ago
A lot of people have this terrible notion of what a union is, where they force you to do things and set wages and work hours.<p>But I suspect a union for programmers would look more like the Actors union or screenwriters union in Hollywood. They would negotiate minimum rates and benefits, but top performers would still be able to get significantly more. The union just sets the minimums.
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vegai_over 3 years ago
I slightly fear how much of my own thinking is there just because some corporation or another big entity wanted me to think like that and spent considerable resources to make it happen.
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robotburritoover 3 years ago
What really needs to happen is the unionization of the second class they employ. These people do literally the same jobs as the people they used to sit next to. Sit through the same &quot;OMG aren&#x27;t we so great at changing the world!&quot; team meetings, put in the same insane hours (my partner was limited to 40 hours a week, yet they are all working over time to keep up appearances and hope they get actually hired full time). She did not get paid for these hours, everyone just puts in the time so they can keep up with the people they are compared against, the full timers.<p>Yet once time for the team to celebrate comes, the door gets shut on them, as they are contingent workers. Showing them the same rewards would possibly make them seem like real employees worthy of praise. Hence, they sit alone in their empty open office, sometimes crying, hearing the cheers of their team in the next office as they slice that cake or watching them leave the office building to go to a wonderful day in the golden gate park.<p>Don&#x27;t even get me started on having to hear the people doing identical work to them talk about buying homes in SF etc.<p>If these people banned together, they might gain some power.
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laweijfmvoover 3 years ago
&gt; Kara Silverstein, Google’s human resources director said that she “like[d] the idea” of the op-ed, but that it should be executed so that “there would be no fingerprints and not Google specific.”<p>Should tell you everything you need to know about your company&#x27;s HR department&#x27;s true interests.
vgeekover 3 years ago
Andrew Carnegie and Henry Clay Frick would be proud.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Homestead_strike" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Homestead_strike</a><p>The whole &quot;we&#x27;re highly paid, ruggedly individualistic engineer&quot; schtick buys into what the companies want. Sure, you may make 400k total comp as a SWE, but what if it were 500k had your employer was not been actively plotting ways to distort the labor market through collusion with competing companies. If activist shareholders understand that they need large blocks of shares to drive change, why wouldn&#x27;t workers organize into blocks to drive change in their own favor?<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnet.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;apple-google-others-settle-anti-poaching-lawsuit-for-415-million&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cnet.com&#x2F;news&#x2F;apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...</a>
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supergeek133over 3 years ago
Every major company I&#x27;ve worked for&#x2F;with that has a large service workforce (Retail, MFG, etc) has &quot;union avoidance&quot; employees&#x2F;training.<p>I recall my first week as a Best Buy part time tech in 2002, we watched a video on how Unions are bad.
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jcranberryover 3 years ago
I think I remember this. IIRC google&#x27;s story were that they were fired because they were sharing internal documents and keeping track of other employees one-on-ones, medical aptmts, family meetings, etc. The NYT article does a decent job of going over a timeline of everything.<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;18&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;google-revolt.html" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.nytimes.com&#x2F;interactive&#x2F;2020&#x2F;02&#x2F;18&#x2F;magazine&#x2F;goog...</a>
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mhoadover 3 years ago
Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.
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StevePerkinsover 3 years ago
Is there really anything here, if you remove the &#x27;scare quotes&#x27;?
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hdjjhhvvhgaover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t believe it&#x27;s only Google, and I don&#x27;t think it&#x27;s particularly secret.
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kingkawnover 3 years ago
A union is a business association among people who market, sell, and deliver the labor of a single individual. To repress these associations of business results in inefficiencies that obscure the true product of the market.
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0xbadcafebeeover 3 years ago
I would rather work in a co-op rather than in a union. If everyone owns the company and the whole makes decisions rather than a tiny minority, the workers get taken care of, making unions irrelevant.
reilly3000over 3 years ago
One of the typical arguments against unions has been that they take a lot of money from employees to pay for dues. I think that is a dated argument from a bygone era. With modern tech stack there is far less administrative overhead, and union meetings can be conducted virtually or async. Additionally, the relative dues for running a union in a tech setting are going to be a lot lower as a percentage of salaries as they tend to me much higher. If there are other arguments that somehow unions harm employees I’d love to hear them.
julienb_seaover 3 years ago
I don&#x27;t know that it&#x27;s surprising or disappointing that Google was exploring PR related to their recent employee activism scandals. It would seem pretty incompetent for them to just ignore the problem and hope it goes away. As you can see from HR&#x27;s comment threads, it&#x27;s not an easy discussion to have and arguments for and against unions are painted as biased propaganda in either direction.
stjohnswartsover 3 years ago
Suck is relative. For google, unionization would suck as it depletes their power over employees. For employees in most situations it would help the common and probably hurt the &quot;guru coders&quot; more. There is plenty of evidence that unions can go awry (just like domineering employers) as well and a balanced approach and using historical references can help both sides.
parkingriftover 3 years ago
I don’t need to be convinced. I don’t like unions, and I think there is likely a better alternative than a centuries old idea. The thing I personally dislike the most is the all or nothing aspect. I don’t want to be compelled to join and union or compelled to pay union dues. I don’t want to be in a union, and I don’t mind bargaining on my own behalf as an individual.
shtopointoover 3 years ago
There&#x27;s a valid argument to be made that unions do suck.<p>You could call it informing people just as much as &quot;convincing&quot; them.
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RickJWagnerover 3 years ago
`Generally I don&#x27;t favor unions. I think carried to extremes they lead to inefficiencies that make labor worse. (Others may feel differently.)<p>But a small part of me wants Google to end up with a nice, fat union. It may teach management that they should be careful with what kind of (disengenuous) messaging they put forth.
choppafaceover 3 years ago
Wow this got run down to page 3 really fast, like mid-day. Would really be curious how many flags it got, and what&#x27;s the ranking story here. In particular because the OP mentions union-busting firms doing things like writing high-profile op-eds w&#x2F;out connection to Google. That&#x27;s major manipulation.
mlindnerover 3 years ago
No surprise here, and not something I&#x27;d personally be against anyway. Not sure why any Googler would unionize anyway, they already get paid more than most of the rest of the valley. Maybe a union would drop their pay down to levels closer to the rest of the valley.
queuebertover 3 years ago
Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position.<p>Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders.<p>There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.
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agumonkeyover 3 years ago
I wonder if big places like Xerox PARC were like Google. It seems (of course I&#x27;m reading the legends from Kay and others) it was a lot more innocent and never deviated from good spirit and good work. Or maybe they also turned into a game theoretic mine field.
VirusNewbieover 3 years ago
Proponents of unions seem not understand that unions only exist to enrich <i>existing</i> members and not benefit society, future members, the profession, or anything else.<p>There&#x27;s a reason why new teachers, doing the same job with the same title, make less than half of what teachers with seniority do. There&#x27;s a reason why many unions use credentialing as a way to restrict the free market and the only way new people can join is through nepotism.<p>Do unions proivde some benefits? Sure. Certainly the threat of a union can also provide said benefits. But unions, like all centralized power structures, eventually become corrupt and end up doing harm at the cost of protecting a small group.
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disabledover 3 years ago
With Google&#x27;s reach, it can be reasonable to expect that the &quot;Unions Suck&quot; project extended to the American populace as a whole. We just do not know how far it went.
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mgaunardover 3 years ago
Unions only exist to protect mediocre people, and only cause harm to top performers.<p>Wasn&#x27;t Google supposed to be a place that only hires the best and brightest?
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dmitrygrover 3 years ago
What exactly did anyone think the “internal communications” department did and why it was so large, other than this sort of thing?
mikkergpover 3 years ago
While I wouldn’t consider myself pro-union, I’m even more skeptical of a companies anti-union messaging.
chris_wotover 3 years ago
Well, on the flip side, unions had a not so secret project to convince employees that Google sucks.
jjmorrisonover 3 years ago
Google employees unionizing is super hypocritical. If you disagree with the big evil monopoly, then leave and give up the crazy salary. Can&#x27;t have it both ways. As long as all the smart people stay there, they&#x27;ll keep being the big evil monopoly. Best case is more placating and pretending.
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mritsover 3 years ago
Yeah, let&#x27;s focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity&#x2F;paternity leave.
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defaultprimateover 3 years ago
I mean Google is genuinely evil, but unions do suck. UAW, NEA, and AFL-CIO have been absolutely terrible for their respective industries.
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ryzvonusefover 3 years ago
I think it&#x27;s because Unions have been replaced by other mode of employee empowerment: stock options.<p>Think from the point of the Employee:<p>1- Union Provides rights; but the employee feels that most of the basic rights are either already provided, or if not, should be provided by legislation not by union action now, so better vote in your favorite politician rather than fiddle with a union.<p>2- Union provide benefits; but employee might feel the benefit provided by stock options supersede any benefit provided by union (stonks over pensions, basically)<p>3- Union provided job security; but people don&#x27;t care that now. For themselves, the idea of one long term job with benefits is no longer relevant, better to work a few years, encash stocks and move with a higher signup bonus and a pay increase higher than any company raise. For their fellow employees, you might NOT want to have job stability for the dick working next to you. If they are fired, all the better for your job, your stock not affected by their poor performance.If an entire department needs to be removed because their work is obsolete (say, ICE specific dept being useless in the new EV world for example) you might not want the dead weight.<p>4- Union provided social benefit; but linked to example above, instead of the dead weight employees being forcefully kept employed by the company, and hindering your work, you would much rather the govt allow you to kick them out, allow you to increase efficiency and raise stock price, and then TAX you... and provide them social security benefit, while they train for new work or whatever. You are still morally satisfied because the social benefit still takes care of them, but they are not hurting your work (and your stock price), so you don&#x27;t feel irritated by them.<p>-And many other such benefits in a similar vein.<p>----<p>TL;DR: employees want the benefits that unions negotiated with companies (job security, health care) to be replaced by govt provided options instead (universal medicare, social security) and they want to be left alone to succeed and earn those stock options.<p>Basically, Tax me once a year and then leave me alone to work.<p>----<p>Caveat: I&#x27;m not American, (or from any developed country for that matter) This is just my personal understanding from observing habits and social comments and actions of silicon valley types. E&amp;OE.
mandmandamover 3 years ago
&gt; Google fired the workers in 2019 after they organized against the company’s contracts with immigration detention agencies.<p>Wooow. That was at the height of ICE being shown as deeply corrupt and racist child abusers. (They still are, but it hasn&#x27;t been used as a stick to beat Biden with because &#x27;reasons&#x27;).<p>&gt;the NLRB issued a federal complaint against Google for illegally firing and surveilling the four software engineers<p>Illegal surveillance. By fucking <i>Google</i>. Scary scary shit.<p>&gt; Kara Silverstein, Google’s human resources director said that she “like[d] the idea” of the op-ed, but that it should be executed so that “there would be no fingerprints and not Google specific.”<p>So, she <i>knew</i> how uncool&#x2F;illegal that looks. Schwifty.<p>Looking at how other outlets have covered this - looking at you, NYT - it&#x27;s pretty fucking awful that the best coverage is coming from Vice.
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maupinover 3 years ago
&quot;Do no evil.&quot; indeed.
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switch007over 3 years ago
Next week:<p>&gt; Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Social Media users that everyone convinces Employees ‘That Unions Suck’
jimbob45over 3 years ago
I&#x27;m guessing that this is related to the Epic case? Seems incredible that Google&#x2F;Epic&#x2F;Apple have decided that the ongoing lawsuit is worth all the negative PR that these doc dumps have brought.
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literallyaduckover 3 years ago
Google&#x2F;Alphabet needs to be broken apart: &quot;The National Labor Relations Act forbids employers from interfering with, restraining, or coercing employees in the exercise of rights relating to organizing, forming, joining or assisting a labor organization for collective bargaining purposes, or from working together to improve terms and conditions of employment, or refraining from any such activity. Similarly, labor organizations may not restrain or coerce employees in the exercise of these rights.&quot;
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