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Launch HN: Clover (YC S20) – Notes, whiteboarding, and daily planner in one tool

140 pointsby attasiover 3 years ago
Hi HN, This is Tom, Adam, and Brandon from Clover (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com</a>) – a digital notebook that blends notes, tasks, whiteboards, and a daily planner into one streamlined app.<p>We&#x27;ve spent our careers working on creative tools. Tom started building web-based design products with Apple back in 2011. Our first startup – Macaw – was one of the first no-code tools on the market. It was acquired by InVision years ago, where we went on to build numerous other design tools. We are also long-time productivity junkies, having built nine different note-taking and task management apps over the past eight years. These were passion projects that were fun to build and use.<p>Working in the design industry, we noticed how designers struggle to communicate their ideas with design tools alone. They often spend more time in a text document outlining feature specifications than they do in their design program designing the actual interface. Task management is done in yet another program, and so on.<p>At the same time, we noticed how text editors don’t do a good job of supporting thinking. Our brains naturally think in a non-linear fashion. Great ideas don&#x27;t flow out of us with a beginning, a middle and an end—they require an iterative process of divergence and convergence (the ‘double diamond model’, for those familiar). Forcing people to record their ideas in linear documents is a terrible constraint. It&#x27;s much more intuitive to work in a non-linear fashion like designers do within their design tools.<p>Conclusion: Thinking tools lack communication and productivity features. Writing tools lack thinking and iteration capabilities. This means you need to string together multiple tools across an idea’s lifecycle, which is difficult to manage.<p>This gave us the idea for Clover: a single workspace to support all stages of an idea’s development: from brainstorming, design, planning, all the way to execution. It should be as good for thinking and iteration as design tools, have powerful text and knowledge management capabilities, and support planning and task tracking workflows. The mission is to help you think more creatively and get more done every day.<p>The heart of our implementation is a new type of document, which we call a Surface. It&#x27;s a freeform spatial document with a heavy emphasis on text capabilities. This required us to build a new type of text editor from the ground up. At its core, it&#x27;s similar to other modern markdown-style editors (like Dropbox Paper) but it also borrows mechanics from design tools (like Figma). Instead of working down a page from top to bottom, you can work in any direction, drag and drop text the way you would move layers in a design tool, sketch on top of your documents, embed rich media from across the web, and a lot more.<p>Building a workspace like this requires meeting users&#x27; expectations of not just one but many different tools: digital whiteboarding, note-taking, tasks, and knowledge management. Consolidating technology and UX into something that actually works across all of those different functions is an interesting and challenging systems design problem. Text editors are deceptively complex to build, and we had to rethink a number of things about traditional text editors to enable Clover&#x27;s spatial capabilities. We don&#x27;t have all of the features of the traditional programs, but we think having all of your tools together is more valuable.<p>We also spent a fair amount of time thinking about how a product like this should fit into your daily workflow. Our Daily Notes feature is intended to be a place to return to throughout your day to take notes, plan tasks, journal, etc. It has some special functionality to automatically roll over any tasks that you didn&#x27;t finish from day to day, and it aggregates tasks across all of your pages, so you have one location to see all of your priorities.<p>Having notes, whiteboarding, tasks, and a daily planner all together in one tool makes it frictionless to carry out ideas from beginning to end and ensures nothing gets lost in the cracks.<p>Clover is used for a wide variety of things – taking notes, planning tasks, etc. Some of the more interesting one ones we&#x27;ve seen are: planning out presentations and practicing them with Clover&#x27;s frames and presentation mode; outlining a vision for a sales team using our diagramming tools; drafting blog posts and using a Clover surface to iterate on the text or take notes in the margins; simple kanban to manage small projects; watching videos on a surface while taking notes and pasting screenshots directly next to the embed.<p>We charge a simple monthly subscription and you can try it out here: <a href="http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com" rel="nofollow">http:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com</a>.<p>We’d love to hear what you think of the product and ideas on how to improve it. Thanks!

41 comments

u2077over 3 years ago
As others have mentioned, I want to try it first without having to create an account and give you my personal information.<p>Also, your FAQ says “We do not track any personally identifiable information. Additionally we do not sell or share user data with third parties.” but your privacy policy says “ We may share your personal information with third party advertising companies to market our own Services and grow our Services’ user base, such as to provide targeted marketing about our own Services via third-party services as described in the advertising purposes section above.”<p>I would like to use sign in with apple so I don’t have to use my personal email, especially considering you cannot change your account email at this time.<p>Looks like a great app from what I can see, but between obsidian &amp; procreate my needs are covered without a subscription.
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threwawasy1228over 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve said this many times but I dislike that I have to make an account before I even know what the product is or if I will like it enough to justify an account. I hunted around for a sec and I could not find anything that would let me see a real demo or example of the product that didn&#x27;t require making an account.<p>Doing something like Airtable[0] is much more effective (not affiliated just a product I use), where I can go from the landing page to embedded product demos that require no login in seconds. It would be great to have something embedded like this or more detailed screencaps at least which showcase the product prior to me having to sign in.<p>[0] <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airtable.com&#x2F;templates" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.airtable.com&#x2F;templates</a>
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ciarlillover 3 years ago
Some initial feedback after noodling around for 20 mins:<p>Initially this looked like the perfect replacement for my notion + good notes setup. Inking is really important to my workflow so most of my feedback is around that. I also love having the calendar integrated into my daily notes.<p>- Daily notes don&#x27;t appear to be a surface so cannot be inked on? This is pretty vital for me. In GoodNotes I basically have a new note page every day for scribbling. Otherwise this feature looks perfect for how I currently work. - The inking in general does not feel great in comparison to Notability or GoodNotes. It appears to do some path correction and overall everything feels very &quot;stiff&quot;. Could use more pen tip size options and pen options in general as well as highlighting. - It&#x27;s too easy to accidentally activate the context menus for text &#x2F; shape &#x2F; non-drawing areas when panning around with fingers or accidentally brushing them with your hand. Maybe a long press on these to activate those menus?<p>I love the idea of having notes, tasks and calendar in one place. You nailed the integration with google calendar, I just wish you could do something similar with tasks but I doubt it will fit into your current paradigm. For me, as a mixed OS user (Android phone, iOS tablet, MacBook for work) I need a task manager that is fully cross platform with notifications, quick add, etc. no matter which device I&#x27;m on. I could see using the tasks in your app for non-deadline, more project-management style things. But not as a daily &quot;to-do style&quot; app. And maybe that is the objective, just my 0.02.<p>Overall this looks _super_ promising and I would love to consolidate my current workflow into one place. And there are great ideas here, unfortunately the UX (at least on iOS and specifically in regards to inking &#x2F; touch input) just falls slightly short of the competition.
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candiddevmikeover 3 years ago
FYI the animations for your signup and &quot;where ideas grow&quot; are killing my browser performance. Beefy desktop, Google Chrome. I&#x27;d get rid of them personally or use standard CSS animations when the elements come into view.
yodonover 3 years ago
Can you let me drag&#x2F;add a slack message to a page with the message summary and link to the message just like I see when I reference a message somewhere in slack? I desperately want to be able to accumulate a stack of messages I need to follow up on or respond to, but without that auto-populating context thumbnail it&#x27;s too hard to know which opaque link is which.
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lepprover 3 years ago
<i>&gt; ideas on how to improve it</i><p>- E2EE<p>Anecdotal personal data point: I already pay $10&#x2F;mo for an E2EE note app with a passable&#x2F;mediocre UX. I would easily pay up to $15&#x2F;mo for a polished experience like your app seems to have, and more if it becomes part of my professional workflow.<p>- Android and Linux support<p>For personal use, you may have no issue ignoring these market segments, but it might be a hard sell for teams. One of the great thing about an app like Notion.so is that it works everywhere and you don&#x27;t need to buy your team members specialized devices just to interact with the project stack.<p>Otherwise I&#x27;m really curious to see how you handle the transition of an infinite 2D space created on large screens to smaller devices, whether it&#x27;s collapsing the space in some way, or using bespoke navigation controls.
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jmann99999over 3 years ago
I really like this. I use DEVONthink currently for most of my notes. However, I really like the &quot;daily&quot; note nature of this. I have a couple of questions that would make this very useful and maybe change my current process.<p>First, can I tag parts of a daily note? My use-case would be tagging sections of a daily note related to a customer. In a given day, I may have 5 meetings with different customers. If I could tag each section with the customer name, it would help me in searching&#x2F;reviewing those notes at a later time?<p>Second, can I add a Surface to the daily note? My desire is to be able to draw with the Apple Pencil on the iOS app on my daily note, just like if I added a Surface to the Page Tree.<p>Thanks and great job getting something fairly polished out the door.<p>Edited for spelling
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anonymouse008over 3 years ago
Very, very interesting... a few quick things:<p>Events should be more group than single item, aka able to contain multiple note types, not just be assigned a surface or a note.<p>Someone already mentioned the pen -- but that is table stakes for a hand written note app.<p>Lastly, the canvas preview should be smooth, not &#x27;gridded&#x27; as designed. I know that becomes a huge pain in the rear since everything has to be redrawn on the main thread... that said, these are the differences between good and great apps.<p>----<p>Finally - these thoughts are only given because your team seems incredibly capable and brilliant. Very few could come up with paradigms such as these, and you deserve the success you seek.
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scrumperover 3 years ago
Delighted to see this. Nearly a decade ago I made a sort of virtual desk blotter which let you put notes or drawings anywhere. It was during paternity leave after my first child was born and I was in that weird head space of free association caused by extreme sleep deprivation. I&#x27;ve since discovered One Note which has that as a core UX device, but I still think mine was nicer, though I never really finished it.<p>Clover&#x27;s Surface seems like a grown-up, slick version of what I was trying to achieve on my own. So I&#x27;m really pleased you&#x27;re making a business out of it. And it&#x27;s a desktop app!<p>I wish Apple hadn&#x27;t ditched the whole OpenDoc thing - it&#x27;d be so good to draw a frame and have that frame be, say, an Affinity Designer document that you could edit directly in the Surface. (A bit like OLE with an Excel sheet in a Word doc in the old days on Windows.) This feels like such an amazing organizational model for complex, multi-tool, project-based work. At least, that&#x27;s how I&#x27;ll use it. But this is only 2 minutes into my use of the product...<p>Congrats, it&#x27;s great. And the price is attractive too - this is one I really hope I end up subscribing to as I go through the trial.
boxmonsterover 3 years ago
My experience in case it helps:<p>Open it up, looks like mobile only. I do my planning an organizing on my big desktop monitor with good keyboard so this is a no go<p>Wants my email a lot. Maybe this guy is harvesting Hacker News emails<p>Subscription model. I hate those because I always forget to cancel. Besides I have free and open source note takers that are pretty good. Not everything I want but good.<p>Someone asked about Desktop further down in comments so you gave them a link<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com&#x2F;download" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;cloverapp.com&#x2F;download</a><p>Download a large Electron app. Windows 11 refuses to run it because it&#x27;s untrusted but I are smart and know how to get around that<p>If can do an Electron app why not just make it a website for people to try?<p>Asks for my email again.<p>It wants to connect to me Google Calendar and Email. It looks like a simplified interface to those two tools.<p>Sketchpad is an interesting idea. They&#x27;ve been tried since the 90&#x27;s but maybe these guys got it right.<p>edit: I use Obsidian. They got me to become addicted to their software by having no fanfare or ceremony and allowing me to see what&#x27;s great about it right away by trying it. It opens to a big download button. It doesn&#x27;t ask for email. It&#x27;s free forever for personal use.
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kndjcktover 3 years ago
Love this! Current user of Notion (structured planning + sharing), Bear (small on the go notes (mobile mainly), Roam (work + research notes), and Noteshelf (any written notes + sketches). Will be interesting to see if this can replace some of these. I&#x27;ll write feedback here if I have any. :)
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ryanSrichover 3 years ago
This looks cool. I’ve been looking for a more permanent replacement for Roam. Everything I’ve tried so far (Obsidian, Logseq, Athens, Mem, etc.) have all been either clones, or just small improvements. I have yet to see something that grabs me in the same way Roam did years ago (block refs was an aha moment).<p>My other must have feature is mobile, which it looks like you have covered. I haven’t tried Clover yet, but do you have interlinking and block references? I assume so as that’s a pretty basic core functionality of a note taking tool now, but I understand a product is always a work in progress.<p>Also, do you have migration tools for importing existing notes? I have 75k pages, and that number grows by 20-100 daily, so it’s a big ask to abandon that.<p>Anyway, congrats on the launch.
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dsomersover 3 years ago
I like the idea here, but it does not seem to support the Apple Pencil feature for handwriting to text when I try to write in text fields, which is a bit of a deal breaker for me. I hope you can fix that because I do like most everything else.
urlwolfover 3 years ago
Wonderful take on what&#x27;s missing in current notetaking. Agree that text editors are not good for thinking (forcing the constraint of linearity &quot;Great ideas don&#x27;t flow out of us with a beginning, a middle and an end&quot;<p>I use only native apps for thinking. Latency kills my train of thought. And web apps have plenty! Both typing latency (typometer, a java app, shows 45ms in best case scenario!) and creation&#x2F;navigation latency (going back to a previous page, creating a new one). But I know my requirements are pretty unique, I&#x27;m not representative of the general public. Best of luck!
epagaover 3 years ago
This reminds me of an iOS app I built years ago (primarily for myself) called Mindscope <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apps.apple.com&#x2F;de&#x2F;app&#x2F;mindscope-thought-organizer&#x2F;id901513028?l=en" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;apps.apple.com&#x2F;de&#x2F;app&#x2F;mindscope-thought-organizer&#x2F;id...</a> - a visual, hierarchical text canvas. Scapple meets Workflowy if you will.<p>I always loved this freer and more visual form of note-taking so it’s really cool to see a full-fledged, more complete solution with media&#x2F;images and the whole nine yards. Very cool!
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eitlandover 3 years ago
Feedback about the landing page:<p>The image front and center is small. And then when I pinch to zoom to look at the picture on the front page it makes itself smaller.<p>Also no screenshots gallery.<p>General feedback: this is an area were I feel there is a lpt of potential.<p>Personally I use Pencil Planner on IPad and it solves some of the problems in the same space brilliantly, like handwriting on top of digital calendar, how to allow both freeform notes and portrait &#x2F; landscape etc.<p>I&#x27;ll probably stick with that, but again I think you are into something and Pencil Planner is only available on Apple devices anyway.
ketzoover 3 years ago
Despite many, many tries, I’ve never found a note taking tool that <i>really</i> captures the way I think, and I until I do, I’ll always welcome a new entry into the field.<p>Congrats on launch and good luck!
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deejaybogover 3 years ago
Congrats for the launch, it all looks very polished!<p>&quot;Surface&quot; is the killer feature for me. Been waiting for someone to build this for a while.<p>Conceptual question: isn&#x27;t Document just a degenerate case of Surface? Can we just have one type of page (&quot;Leaves&quot; ;))? Document-like functionality could be exposed through the Text tool or as a separate &quot;text editor&quot;.<p>In the same vein, Favorites can be just a Label.
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screyeover 3 years ago
I will be following this very closely. I have been asking for this for about 10 years now. Signed up, will be using it for a few weeks to evaluate.
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EricMoooover 3 years ago
Congrats on the launch! Your team&#x27;s execution is really impressive.<p>When I tried Surface in the browser there was noticeable sluggishness if I intentionally added a lot of elements on the page. This reminded me of reading about how Figma leveraged WASM to improve their performance on the browser. I wonder what your thoughts are on WASM and web side performance in general.
georgesequeiraover 3 years ago
Wow, this non-linear note-taking space is blowing up. Just recently I started using <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;museapp.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;museapp.com&#x2F;</a>. That being said, they&#x27;re hierarchical if not linear but same concept with &quot;inking&quot;! Any others that people are trying?
taejavuover 3 years ago
Loving it so far, and all I&#x27;ve explored is the Daily Notes. My intention is to try it long-term.<p>The major missing feature that jumps out at me is the &quot;create link&quot; UX - I&#x27;d love to be able to highlight some text and paste a url from my clipboard to create a link. This is how Notion, Slack and GitHub work, and it&#x27;s fast becoming a must-have!
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1123581321over 3 years ago
This looks pretty cool. Those interested may also like a longtime Mac app that scratches a similar itch, Curio. It’s part outliner, freeform idea layout tool, and visual reference organizer. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.zengobi.com&#x2F;curio&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.zengobi.com&#x2F;curio&#x2F;</a>
iota8over 3 years ago
Looks pretty neat. Free floating text and drawing on infinite canvas makes it pretty usable for putting down ideas and brainstorming. It will be nice if you add shape recognition feature something like these guys have <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lekh.app" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;lekh.app</a>
0x0000000over 3 years ago
This looks really interesting, and you&#x27;re speaking right to me with things like &quot;infinite canvas&quot; and &quot;work in any direction&quot;, it&#x27;s exactly what I&#x27;ve been looking for (and disappointed with current apps, e.g Miro).<p>That said, I would never use something like this on a subscription model.
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blitz_skullover 3 years ago
How does this differentiate at all from NotePlan3? Just from the landing page is looks damn near identical.
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sahaskattaover 3 years ago
How does this compare to OneNote?
awbover 3 years ago
Clover is a pretty well-used name. When searching for “Clover” on Google:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.clover.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.clover.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloverfoodlab.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloverfoodlab.com&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.clover.co&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.clover.co&#x2F;</a><p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloverhealth.com&#x2F;" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.cloverhealth.com&#x2F;</a><p>When I hear “Clover”, I think payment processing and health care. Apparently it’s also a dating app and a food service.<p>In a crowded namespace you might want to consider using a descriptive term like “Clover Notes” in your branding so people can find you better and mentally separate you from the other Clover companies out there.<p>Also, when I hear “Surface”, I think of the Microsoft laptop. They position “Surface” as a tool for creativity, productivity, efficiency, etc., much like you do. Are you sure you’re in the clear to use that term?<p>“Use Surface as a whiteboard for better brainstorming, enhanced memory, intuitive organization, and workflows you simply can’t do elsewhere”, seems like a statement that would easily apply to the Surface laptop.
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astatineover 3 years ago
Looks very interesting. Any chance that it can be made to work with Remarkable?
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emrahover 3 years ago
Words are great but why not put a demo video right on the front page? That could help with (some) people who want to try it out without signing up too.
jitlover 3 years ago
Cool app! I think your design and messaging are well-positioned, I would pick this over Craft as a personal user for sure.<p>What data model are you using for collaboration&#x2F;sync?
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jmkdover 3 years ago
Looking good. You got me with the Goldeneye references in the Feature Overview. Am now culturally obliged to try and make this work for me :)
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swingbrotherover 3 years ago
one missing feature seems to be the latex support. notion and many other note takings apps has inline support for latex equations.
insomniacityover 3 years ago
+1 for encryption. I currently spend money on Standard Notes, but would probably move to this if there was end-to-end encryption.
ianstormtaylorover 3 years ago
Absolutely love the idea of combining regular note taking with the power of an infinite canvas. Congrats on the launch!
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FajitaNachosover 3 years ago
The hover effect on the buttons on the home page are so nice. I haven&#x27;t seen it before and absolutely love it.
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jamesTurnbull98over 3 years ago
I&#x27;ve been using this for a month or so and find it incredibly useful. Job well done Clover team!
klohtoover 3 years ago
Wanted to try the desktop, but it still requires Rosetta under M1. Any plans for an ARM build?
g051051over 3 years ago
I hate signing up for trials. And they committed a cardinal sin...adding me to a mailing list, even though I specifically left that box unchecked.
carterschonwaldover 3 years ago
Isn’t the spatial element a key part of what makes OneNote great?
defluctover 3 years ago
No desktop app? That&#x27;s a dealbreaker.
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