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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

336 pointsby bobbiechenover 3 years ago

32 comments

webmavenover 3 years ago
<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;Z2sgI" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;archive.is&#x2F;Z2sgI</a>
VictorPathover 3 years ago
&gt; The son of two mathematics teachers who were sent to teach on farms during China’s Cultural Revolution, Dr. Chen grew up without any hope of becoming a scientist. His parents, the descendants of landowners, had a “bad classification” from the Chinese government, and were viewed suspiciously. His father warned him he would probably spend his life as a farmer. But then Mao Zedong died.<p>Chen moved to the US to experience the American equivalent of this.
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throwawayarntyover 3 years ago
The worst part of these accusations is that your reputation is tarnished whether you are guilty or not.<p>This instilled a sense of fear in every person even if they are innocent because you can still be targeted and your career ruined.<p>If this scientist was just stating out, rather than already established, he would likely have had to quit science.<p>There should be some penalty for false accusations that can compensate for these people.
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vishnuguptaover 3 years ago
This is just such a sad situation. The scientist&#x27;s reputation has taken a big beating and he will now be looked through the lease of these accusations for rest of his career, if not more.<p>The last paragraph stood out for me.<p>“My love is science. I did not want politics, right? I saw that, and I got away from it. I do my devotion to science. I help people, I support. But I learned that you can’t get away. Politics impacts everybody. So if there are things that are not right, we all need to speak out.”<p>Lot of times most of us, including me, don&#x27;t speak out against wrong policies. We all think &quot;let&#x27;s just focus on our own thing&quot; it won&#x27;t affect us. But we are all wrong, &quot;Politics impacts everybody&quot;.
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shantnutiwariover 3 years ago
This will just lead to a chilling effect, where scientists, esp those born outside, will be hesitant to apply for any government aid.<p>I vaguely remember this case when it first came out. At the time, the impression I got was: Dr Chen was passing info to Chinese agents.<p>And now the impression is: He had some affiliations with Chinese groups that were fully legal, and he was not required to disclose.<p>Which begs the question: Why was he arrested in the first place?
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lbs4over 3 years ago
This reminds me of the case of Tsien Hsue-Shen, who in the 1950s was deported from the US and subsequently more or less became the father of the Chinese space program. Iris Chang wrote a good book about it called &#x27;Thread of the Silkworm.&#x27;
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neither_colorover 3 years ago
<i>Last week, the government dismissed the case against Dr. Chen, which alleged that he had concealed seven Chinese affiliations in applications for $2.7 million in grants from the U.S. Energy Department. Prosecutors announced that they had received new information indicating that Dr. Chen had not been obliged to disclose those affiliations, undercutting the basis of the case.</i><p>I feel like this part could use more details. The charges were for not disclosing his affiliations, but those affiliations existed nonetheless? Edit: I&#x27;m not implying there&#x27;s anything shady he did or that he wasn&#x27;t falsely accused, just trying to parse this.
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greesilover 3 years ago
These things have a way of working themselves out.<p>&quot;Father of Chinese Rocketry&quot; <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Qian_Xuesen" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;en.m.wikipedia.org&#x2F;wiki&#x2F;Qian_Xuesen</a><p>Except for the 5 years under house arrest part. Wow.
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tejohnsoover 3 years ago
&gt; “My thinking is, I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said. “So whatever they look at, they won’t find that I did anything wrong.”<p>This statement seems like a completely backward mindset to have, especially after watching this classic advice piece on youtube [1].<p>[1]: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE</a>
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andi999over 3 years ago
&quot;The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China.&quot;<p>No, it is not. Why would it be a setback if somebody who is innocent has their case dismissed. I mean who writes such lines? Doesnt this line imply that this dismissal was a bad thing (since nobody endorses espionage).
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tsolover 3 years ago
&gt;The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China. Many of the prosecutions, like the case against Dr. Chen, do not allege espionage or theft of information, but something narrower: failing to disclose Chinese affiliations in grant applications to U.S. agencies. Critics say it has instilled a pervasive atmosphere of fear among scientists of Chinese descent.<p>While I can agree with and see the value of the overall agenda, it seems a matter of bad application. I won&#x27;t pretend to be an expert on the matter who can say exactly what needs to be done, but I wonder about how necessary it really is to drag people through the mud in such cases. It certainly can have a chilling effect on scientists with affiliations to Chinese entities, many of which are plenty secular. I understand the impetus to investigate all affiliations when a foreign state is involved, but at the same time it becomes self destructive if it goes too far all too quickly. The solution, to me, seems to fall on those doing the investigating; that the investigating parties must hold to a higher and better informed standard before bringing forth charges that could hurt American scientists, and by extention, American science
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Zakover 3 years ago
People wrongly charged with crimes should be able to sue for damages. That&#x27;s the case in come jurisdictions, but often requires significant evidence of prosecutorial misconduct, a high bar to clear.
beepbooptheoryover 3 years ago
To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial&#x2F;scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. might be doing something so different from China, that this level espionage would even be viable? Surely, everyone is working on different things here and there, but this idea that there is such critical intellectual property the US that needs to be guarded so intensely in this like James Bond scenario, just feels a little wacky.<p>Are you all really here in 2022, being like &quot;we can&#x27;t risk a Chinese national from even seeing our American semiconductor research, they will steal it and use it against us?&quot; Are actual <i>scientists</i> concerned? Or just the state, and apparently most of the fellow commenters?
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Tabular-Icebergover 3 years ago
Like McCarthyism it’s a noble cause, but I can’t help but wonder if these initiatives rather tend to be outsmarted by the real spies. People who are accidentally incriminated by clerical errors and misunderstandings are much lower hanging fruit.
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sigmaprimusover 3 years ago
This is a troubling story in so many ways, I don&#x27;t know what the answer to the problem is but feel something needs to change within the government when people are subjected to what can only be described as a witch trial bordering on McCarthyism.<p>The fact the state and his own lawyer were pressing him to take a deal is also very troubling as it echoes the plight of many impoverished young men who lost their families, careers, reputations and futures by pleading down trumped up charges laid against them.<p>These are the stories the RWM doesn&#x27;t cover as it does not fit their narrative.
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mupuff1234over 3 years ago
I&#x27;d be curious to hear how many candidates for tech companies get disqualified due to failing security clearance.
floor_over 3 years ago
I&#x27;m reminded of this great story:<p>&quot;How I got an FBI record at age 11 from dabbling in cryptography then got into more trouble&quot;<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.stanford.edu&#x2F;~learnest&#x2F;les&#x2F;crypto.htm" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;web.stanford.edu&#x2F;~learnest&#x2F;les&#x2F;crypto.htm</a>
selimthegrimover 3 years ago
There was a case at Caltech with an Israeli national and I don’t recall that receiving nearly the same level of scrutiny. Instead the supervisor who got her work stolen got disciplined for putting a cat as a coauthor on one of her papers as a joke.
rolling_robotover 3 years ago
In US you end up being free, but treated like a spy by some funding agency. In Russia you end up in prison having no hope of getting back. Arrested in April 2021, 69 year old professor Golubkin is still in remand prison. <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;meduza.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;feature&#x2F;2021&#x2F;04&#x2F;13&#x2F;another-treason-case" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;meduza.io&#x2F;en&#x2F;feature&#x2F;2021&#x2F;04&#x2F;13&#x2F;another-treason-case</a> accused for governmental treason.
javajoshover 3 years ago
As bad as this is, it could have been so much worse for him. The government does not usually correct itself like this, preferring instead to continue with prosecution, notch up another corrupt win, and call it a day. And in fact, for this reason, the (current) government needs to get major kudos! And Dr. Chen should get more hugs, and more support - as many as he needs to help him forget this nightmare and get back to doing what he loves.
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FpUserover 3 years ago
&quot;“We understand that our charging decisions deeply impact people’s lives,” said Rachael Rollins&quot;<p>Understand my a$$. They do not give a fuck about what they do to people. If they were directly responsible and punished in cases where they&#x27;ve improperly ruined people&#x27;s lives then they might understand.
1-6over 3 years ago
In security, you&#x27;re always guilty until proven innocent.
qwertassover 3 years ago
Might do good to introduce more diversity in US academia
alexnewmanover 3 years ago
Be cool to write a book about how the CCP&#x2F;CPC realized asian americans are more and more important to the USA defense and economic structure. They then spread disinfo to the CIA about anti CPC Chinese Americans, claiming they are chinese spys. This causes the end of the university system being a relevant defense&#x2F;economic buffer for the west. Kindof like a Chinese version of the men who stare at goats which was apparently based on a true story.
Communitivityover 3 years ago
There are two factors that come into play here in terms of regulations.<p>The first, and biggest, is the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). ITAR is the set of United States regulations that control the manufacture, sale, and distribution of defense and space-related articles and services as defined in the United States Munitions List (USML), <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecfr.gov&#x2F;current&#x2F;title-22&#x2F;chapter-I&#x2F;subchapter-M&#x2F;part-121" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.ecfr.gov&#x2F;current&#x2F;title-22&#x2F;chapter-I&#x2F;subchapter-M...</a>. The USML is large, and broad in scope. It also still needs to be interpreted. These interpretations err on the side of &#x27;an abundance of caution&#x27;, due to the fines from violating regulations and the perceived threat to national security. ITAR regulations and policies are complex enough that most defense contracting firms have people who specialize in just ITAR and help others in the company deal with it. I have worked projects with multiple countries and can tell you that it is a pain to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts, even when working with countries that are our closest allies. Things that you might not think would be covered often are, or are interpreted to be covered. Let&#x27;s say you designed a new type of paper clip. This paper clip[ is so much better that when it comes to organizing files and paperwork processing productivity its use is considered to provide a &#x27;material advantage&#x27; to military units that use it. That likely would be export controlled under ITAR. I&#x27;m not debating whether it should or not, that is how it is.<p>The other factor is that modern conflict is multi-domain, and one of the biggest domains is economics. Corporate espionage is very real, and very state sponsored, around the world. That means that things like chip designs are very sought after.<p>I remember going to a particular standards conference. We had a huge upsurge in one country&#x27;s delegates just before the conference (roughly a 3:1 increase), and during the conference I noticed the new delegates seemed more polished and less proficient than the ones I had worked with for a while and knew. The ones I knew also seemed deferential to the new delegates. Before the conference the matter came up with my employer. I&#x27;ve been told such situations are the norm rather than the exception.<p>It is because of these situations and the level of state actor activity, that the U.S. wants to know all your affiliations, even seemingly innocent ones. You sign a legal document, in effect testifying, that the associations you documented are accurate and complete to you knowledge. The penalties for not disclosing such associations are well known because they are spelled out. They are draconian because of the U.S. concern, and the causes of that concern are real. All sorts of cases can be made for that policy, and against it, but there is no away any researcher working for the government on DOD or DOD-tangential projects is ignorant of the policy.<p>As an anecdote, I knew another American colleague. Young guy, had a girlfriend in Canada (a relationship he disclosed). They decided to get married, and did (something he did not disclose). When the CO of the group he was doing his research for found out about it my colleague&#x27;s employment and clearance were terminated, and he was judged a permanent security risk, meaning he could never again work a government contract - effectively ending his career.
pmichaudover 3 years ago
Paywall?
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biohax2015over 3 years ago
Please read about the Cultural Revolution. To call this “equivalent “ is laughable.
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poxwoleover 3 years ago
Seriously this is next level paranoid. I wondering when will they have McCarthyism 2: Electric Boogaloo China Edition. I say a little before the next election
ngcc_hkover 3 years ago
Given the nuclear bomb in China was helped by out-going chinese. Given china is a world power which is communist and totalitarian in nature.<p>Can China be treated by Soviet Union? Yes you can.<p>By allowing china playing the hand I can got yours but you cannot go to my market, even if you are not that political one should be very careful.<p>Bad to be racist. Sorry to lose the war yes war to communists and totalitarians. But with this, I still think USA will lose. The free world will lose.
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hiptobecubicover 3 years ago
&gt; The dismissal is a setback to the China Initiative, an effort started in 2018 to crack down on economic and scientific espionage by China.<p>How is this a setback? The goal is to prevent espionage, not harass and punish people for being Chinese.<p>Honestly, what has happened to the NYT? When did they get so bad at this? They were the most well-regarded newspaper in the world and now they read like madlibs.
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dijonman2over 3 years ago
Note that the accusations of Dr Chen having ties to China are true. However, Dr Chen wasn’t legally required to disclose them:<p>&gt; Prosecutors announced that they had received new information indicating that Dr. Chen had not been obliged to disclose those affiliations, undercutting the basis of the case.<p>In either case I believe ties to China are harmful, they are not a friendly country.
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hwersover 3 years ago
I mean what you do in these situations is just have NY times write an article like this on you that you can point to in job applications and any reputational damage is probably nullified.
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