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Yoga and meditation do not quiet the ego but instead boost self-enhancement (2018)

37 pointsby FrojoSover 3 years ago

11 comments

SBArbeitover 3 years ago
When taught rooted in a mystical spiritual tradition, yoga and meditation are enormously important ingredients in quieting the influence of the ego.<p>When taught as productivity or wellness hacks, yeah, you&#x27;d get the result that this study did.<p>It&#x27;s not about how good you look doing Downward Dog. It&#x27;s about taking a break from the incessant mind-chatter, and getting a chance to experience the present moment, whether through movement or stillness.
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anm89over 3 years ago
Just anecdotally, the &quot;yoga, spiritual, new age&quot; people I know are BY FAR the most egotistical group of people I have ever met. I lived in Bali as a digital nomad where these people are one of the core cohorts and it is very noticeable.<p>Interestingly they are also, again anecdotally, on average a standard deviation or two more attractive than Americans on average. I think it is somehow related to a people who have grown up with people fawning over them and having people hanging off of their words and confirming everything they say and do. Then someone comes along and tells them that they can control their destiny and reality with their mind and crystals or whatever and it feels intuitively correct to them. Then they start projecting these ideas and get lots of positive feedback from their echo chamber.<p>It&#x27;s really fascinating to watch from a distance.
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anonymousnotmeover 3 years ago
They seem to be treating yoga and meditation separately. Perhaps, they need to understand that yoga has 8 limbs, one of which is asana (generally what most people consider yoga). Yoga has 4 limbs&#x2F;levels of meditation. Suposedly, one can&#x27;t have an ego to reach samadhi (the highest level of meditation). The yama, niyamas, asana (what most people yoga) and pranayama (breathing exercises) limbs of yoga are steps or precursors to the meditation. Seems like they don&#x27;t know this and are testing beginners; I am not sure how meaningful that is. If they had a way to measure how compent each person was at each limb and then gave results based upon their skill at each limb, that would be interesting. Not sure how one would measure whether a person is competent at the 4 meditation levels.
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kumarvvrover 3 years ago
In the context of western commercialization<p>Yoga - A sequence of difficult postures<p>Meditation - Sitting still and quiet.<p>You can do that without naming them as such. Try to do as much manual work as possible, without the aid of machines. Like exercises, running, etc. That will improve health.<p>Taking a walk in a park, getting up early and smelling the fresh scents of the morning, having a heartful chat with kids or spouse before sleep have the same effects as meditation.<p>Instead of trying to improve quality of life, we have degraded quality of life, through high stress work and high anxiety life. And to compensate for it, we get into these.<p>In my view, both are a waste of time, money and effort.
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jkodroffover 3 years ago
Any even semi-serious practitioner of meditation will know that most people won&#x27;t see results in 4 weeks. This is impatience.<p>And if you approach meditation as a way to &quot;get&quot; something, this approach will not yield good results either. This is goal-driven &quot;greed&quot; (as referred to in the Buddhist tradition).<p>In order for meditation to &quot;work&quot;, you have to come at it with a sense of goodwill, patience, openness, etc. and let the practice do <i>you</i>, not the other way around.
patttover 3 years ago
Some spiritual traditions and teachers (e.g classical yoga) treat this as a trap, it’s highly advised to forget about your practice and go about your day after the daily session. They maintain that the lifestyle will adjust (or not) naturally depending on one’s needs, and those needs are usually not what the ego wants at least in its initial condition. This includes talking to others about your practice in particular unacquainted ones, any drastic adjustments to one’s diet, schedule. Any sort of excitement or obsession about the practice are detrimental, at least from the classical yoga technology perspective. But then again as the top comment says this really depends on the approach, it seems like marketing such Oriental practices as productivity&#x2F;wellness hacks with immediate effects provides more excitement and profitability than just following your sensations while steadily performing a few easy looking and un-complicated asanas.
telxosserover 3 years ago
Isn&#x27;t it time to move on from Freudian language and stop using a word that has so many different meanings in the modern sense?<p>If we translated things today for the first time we would never translate these ideas to the word &#x27;ego&#x27;. I am pretty sure this is just a relic of the times of original translation and Freud&#x27;s popularity at the time.<p>I just remember being young and thinking the idea was to quite your personality or destroy your personality. That is such a translation error and distortion of the message. A philosophical problem caused by highly imprecise language.
mwattsunover 3 years ago
Everyone has to start somewhere. Most people have to make a commitment to the work and do it before they get to the place that is underneath thoughts and feelings. It takes time.
floatingatollover 3 years ago
Previously on HN, there was a 288-comments discussion on “<i>Mindfulness and meditation can boost depression and anxiety</i>” (2020): <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24185710" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=24185710</a><p>When considering these two studies together, I find a very interesting question to ask: Have we evaluated treatment of depression and anxiety as if they were <i>self-enhancement</i> disorders?
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aogailiover 3 years ago
If you read any eastern literature, you&#x27;ll find a deep philosophical perspective that comes with those eastern practices. But they want to import, measure and understand those practices using the scientific&#x2F;capitalistic&#x2F;individualistic lens and then come and make bold statements such as the one in the tile to something they clearly don&#x27;t understand.<p>The way I understood it, is that the ego is the abstraction that society and by extension individuals places on the self, when a monk or a spiritual person lets go of everything society tries to label him with, and silence then mind, his mind is not noisier than that of a dog or other animals. But if you are doing Yoga and meditation while constantly thinking about self-improvement, then that is the opposite of what those practices are aiming for which is letting go.<p>Personally, I think the concept of self has merits on many occasions. Having self-confidence, self-love, self-esteem etc, are all useful, especially in social settings.<p>But sometimes, it is beneficial to tune that concept down. When someone is struggling, not doing well in life, and having many negative and self-critical thoughts, perhaps it is better to tune those thoughts down and just focus on whatever is at hand.
alecstover 3 years ago
First of all this is the sci-hub link so you all can judge for yourselves. I think it&#x27;s worth skimming the paper at least:<p><a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sci-hub.st&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.1177&#x2F;0956797618764621" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;sci-hub.st&#x2F;https:&#x2F;&#x2F;journals.sagepub.com&#x2F;doi&#x2F;abs&#x2F;10.1...</a><p>In defense of the paper, anyone who&#x27;s spent time in yoga centers or even monasteries has noticed this effect occasionally. It&#x27;s possible to meet someone there whose giant ego and total lack of self-awareness makes you cringe. It&#x27;s happened to me.<p>But skimming this paper left me feeling sad. I can&#x27;t blame the scientists for not knowing better, as this is what we are trained to do. Reproducibility, large sample sizes, p-values, Bayesian methods, etc.<p>The problem is that Buddhist meditation (among other spiritual paradigms) doesn&#x27;t suit these techniques at all. Meditation isn&#x27;t like penicillin or insulin. You can&#x27;t easily do a double-blind placebo controlled experiment on mediation, and two people sitting quietly in meditation can be doing completely different things.<p>Plus, the Buddhist path is not linear at all, nor does it prescribe meditation in 15 minute chunks at the end of the workday as they do in this study. It&#x27;s an entire reimagining of one&#x27;s way of life that that not only involves extensive periods of meditation in isolation, but also self-reflection and practicing morality.<p>At monasteries, for example, monks typically go on retreat for three months out of the year (which means they mostly sit in meditation during that time.) To even become a monk you have to relinquish your money and belongings. Monks are not even allowed to own anything beyond a bowl and a robe and even shave their face (including their eyebrows) as a way of undifferentiating themselves from one another and softening the attachment to the self. All this is to say that if meditation were enhancing one&#x27;s sense of self, monasteries wouldn&#x27;t be doing it.<p>As far as the study methods go, how do <i>monks</i> score on questions such as &quot;How central is it for you to be free from envy?&quot; If they score highly, does that reflect a high sense of self-centrality? Why?<p>Publishing a study with a title like that feels like a mic-drop moment -- ha, we got them -- but what it shows, to me anyway, is a deep naivete of a several-thousand-year-old tradition.<p>I say this as a scientist and a meditator. I&#x27;m optimistic that in the future we&#x27;ll do better than this.<p>This last part is off-topic but if I still have your attention and you&#x27;re curious, there are a few topics that I think are completely understudied that will hopefully get some meaningful scientific attention in the coming years. Maybe you&#x27;ll be the one to write the paper!<p>1. The chakras. They are actually not bullshit. But what are they? Are they purely proprioceptive (i.e. only appear to be located in the body, but aren&#x27;t) or are do they have an actual analogue in the body, like nerve ganglia. I don&#x27;t know.<p>2. Tummo. This is getting some traction now because it&#x27;s a completely wild that people can heat up their bodies with their minds. The heat apparently starts in the navel chakra and works its way up the &quot;central channel&quot; or &quot;shushumna&quot;.<p>3. The intersection between pranayama and sleep (&quot;yogi sleep&quot; or yogis who only need a few hours of sleep a night.)<p>4. The &quot;signature&quot; of awakening. I&#x27;ve heard Andrew Holecek describe awakening as &quot;like waking up into a lucid dream, but way way bigger.&quot; Is there a signature of this in the mind that you can see somewhere, say in an fMRI?
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